North East Buses

A nice day out for me today ? a trip into Arrivaland, namely Middlesbrough. Saw both 1914 and 1915 at the bus station on 17's ? Thought that Stockton was losing its Cadets?

(07 Jan 2016, 9:53 am)GX03 SVC wrote [ -> ]The MAX'd ALX400s will be for Service X20 according to the usual source. 7412 has proven CONSTANTLY unreliable and can barely cope with the 35.

7415 gets MOT tomorrow and should enter service next week on service 35.

The fact they were considered fit for a Demanding route like the X20 after being pounded to death from Enfield Depot in North London for 13 years is beyond belief, Moving the E400s to Belmont was a big mistake, Hopefully the 55reg B7TLs despite there more superior ZF gearbox than the earlier models like 7412 will only be another Stopgap till potential investment can come around.

(11 Jan 2016, 7:13 pm)buss14 wrote [ -> ]yes i did and saying that the DLA's from london have been coping with the x20 quite well but they are a little too bouncy for my liking when they get to the country roads

DLAs are a robust vehicle but are not suited to fast paced routes due there 3 Speed Voith which was only meant for inner city journeys.
There suspension has to be the best out of all ALX400s though.

(12 Jan 2016, 12:54 pm)MrPottski wrote [ -> ]1909 appeared at Darlington earlier, bound for Wakefield apparently!

1912 was also in Darlington this afternoon.

(12 Jan 2016, 4:06 pm)scania driver wrote [ -> ]A nice day out for me today ? a trip into Arrivaland, namely Middlesbrough. Saw both 1914 and 1915 at the bus station on 17's ? Thought that Stockton was losing its Cadets?

We've had 6 of them modified to DDA and continue to see use on services 17 and 17A alongside the odd Pulsar. Due to be replaced later this year I gather.
3 more of them have been further modified and are now enroute to Yorkshire.

(12 Jan 2016, 4:12 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote [ -> ]The fact they were considered fit for a Demanding route like the X20 after being pounded to death from Enfield Depot in North London for 13 years is beyond belief, Moving the E400s to Belmont was a big mistake, Hopefully the 55reg B7TLs despite there more superior ZF gearbox than the earlier models like 7412 will only be another Stopgap till potential investment can come around.

Well that's Arriva for you. Get away with doing the bare minimum and yes, I know there's a good few routes where GNE have sheds knocking about but unlike GNE, Arriva's key and core routes are simply being run into the ground with cast off vehicles and too many dodgy workings with minimal effort of allocating the right vehicles.

Why refurbish 6 year old buses (at the time), for a PREMIUM service which of course had a very questionable history and Arriva are now in a position of not being able to cascade these vehicles (unless another division wants more spares). And secondly, why don't Arriva actually invest into the X20 and try to create growth on it?

Put it this way, if Arriva keep doing the bare minimum they can get away with, then it won't be long before we hear some E400s with voith gearboxes knocking around Northumberland and it won't do Arriva any favours.

(12 Jan 2016, 8:41 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote [ -> ]Well that's Arriva for you. Get away with doing the bare minimum and yes, I know there's a good few routes where GNE have sheds knocking about but unlike GNE, Arriva's key and core routes are simply being run into the ground with cast off vehicles and too many dodgy workings with minimal effort of allocating the right vehicles.

Why refurbish 6 year old buses (at the time), for a PREMIUM service which of course had a very questionable history and Arriva are now in a position of not being able to cascade these vehicles (unless another division wants more spares). And secondly, why don't Arriva actually invest into the X20 and try to create growth on it?

Put it this way, if Arriva keep doing the bare minimum they can get away with, then it won't be long before we hear some E400s with voith gearboxes knocking around Northumberland and it won't do Arriva any favours.

well said

I'd be very surprised if Arriva chose to grind these buses to the grave, which they would be doing on a route like the X20. Source or no source.

(12 Jan 2016, 4:12 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote [ -> ]The fact they were considered fit for a Demanding route like the X20 after being pounded to death from Enfield Depot in North London for 13 years is beyond belief, Moving the E400s to Belmont was a big mistake, Hopefully the 55reg B7TLs despite there more superior ZF gearbox than the earlier models like 7412 will only be another Stopgap till potential investment can come around.

So, what deckers should have been done for the 6 then? And, considering there's only 3 E400s and the X20 needs 4........

We also now have to consider that 7412-5 now have no home considering these ALX400s are going on the X20 (and also to Durham - I did hear Jesmond were due some so I expect they are the ones now losing out on the B7s). So, where do 7412-5 go now? No good for the Summer X93 if they can't handle the X20 which is a far less demanding route.

As for 13 year old ex-London deckers on demanding routes you claim is 'beyond belief' - 7484-91/3/4 managed the X93 fine when they arrived from London 2 years ago when they were more-or-less the same age as 7412-5. Ok yes, they had to stop half way up Flyingthorpe Bank to drop down a gear but still.

(12 Jan 2016, 8:41 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote [ -> ]Well that's Arriva for you. Get away with doing the bare minimum and yes, I know there's a good few routes where GNE have sheds knocking about but unlike GNE, Arriva's key and core routes are simply being run into the ground with cast off vehicles and too many dodgy workings with minimal effort of allocating the right vehicles.

Why refurbish 6 year old buses (at the time), for a PREMIUM service which of course had a very questionable history and Arriva are now in a position of not being able to cascade these vehicles (unless another division wants more spares). And secondly, why don't Arriva actually invest into the X20 and try to create growth on it?

Put it this way, if Arriva keep doing the bare minimum they can get away with, then it won't be long before we hear some E400s with voith gearboxes knocking around Northumberland and it won't do Arriva any favours.

I wonder if the reason for the mixed age of buses allocated for Sapphire X21/X22 is possibly because buying new buses for the full X21/X22 was unjustifiable, I am not totally familiar with the passenger loadings throughout the day, but when I have used the services in question the services have carried a very small amount of passengers throughout the journeys between Newcastle and Ashington, I've never observed any more than about 20 passengers throughout a journey between Newcastle and Ashington which seems a lot less than when I do a typical journey on the Sapphire 7, in fact in most cases, there will usually be 20 passengers on-board at just whichever stop I board on the route throughout the typical daytime hours. So I'm wondering if the sparse number of passengers on some X21/X22 journeys through the day was potentially the reason for only buying some newer buses and refurbishing others to make up the PVR. Do feel it wasn't the best thing to do with this being a Sapphire route but I imagine that there is a valid reason for why this was done.

I feel it could be a similar story for the X20, especially with the fairly recent extention from Amble through to Alnwick, again the few times I have used the service it hasn't been busy by any stretch. I think the reason for such old buses having to be sourced for the X20 may likely to be it not justifying new stock but the lacking of double deckers purchases over the years until recently probably hasn't helped, the fact that between the Lowlander's arriving in 2001 and the Enviro 400's plus Lowlander's 7453-7456 in 2007 the only new double deckers bought between them orders was 7445/7446, so the reason why we probably have so many London cast offs is probably as old step entrance stock needed replacing, particularly with DDA compliance coming into play. Hopefully we'll see more double deckers purchases being made in the upcoming years and hopefully rely less on cast offs from other divisions, particularly if they have spent many years being pushed to within an inch of their lives.

(13 Jan 2016, 12:12 am)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]I wonder if the reason for the mixed age of buses allocated for Sapphire X21/X22 is possibly because buying new buses for the full X21/X22 was unjustifiable, I am not totally familiar with the passenger loadings throughout the day, but when I have used the services in question the services have carried a very small amount of passengers throughout the journeys between Newcastle and Ashington, I've never observed any more than about 20 passengers throughout a journey between Newcastle and Ashington which seems a lot less than when I do a typical journey on the Sapphire 7, in fact in most cases, there will usually be 20 passengers on-board at just whichever stop I board on the route throughout the typical daytime hours. So I'm wondering if the sparse number of passengers on some X21/X22 journeys through the day was potentially the reason for only buying some newer buses and refurbishing others to make up the PVR. Do feel it wasn't the best thing to do with this being a Sapphire route but I imagine that there is a valid reason for why this was done.

I feel it could be a similar story for the X20, especially with the fairly recent extention from Amble through to Alnwick, again the few times I have used the service it hasn't been busy by any stretch. I think the reason for such old buses having to be sourced for the X20 may likely to be it not justifying new stock but the lacking of double deckers purchases over the years until recently probably hasn't helped, the fact that between the Lowlander's arriving in 2001 and the Enviro 400's plus Lowlander's 7453-7456 in 2007 the only new double deckers bought between them orders was 7445/7446, so the reason why we probably have so many London cast offs is probably as old step entrance stock needed replacing, particularly with DDA compliance coming into play. Hopefully we'll see more double deckers purchases being made in the upcoming years and hopefully rely less on cast offs from other divisions, particularly if they have spent many years being pushed to within an inch of their lives.

i think arriva will have 7412-5 on a trial run for two weeks and see how they perform then there will be more likely be a decision make after but in the end the 4 b7tls that where intended for the x20 may go to jesmond to go with the 51 regs and the 02 regs

Think Arriva should have trialled one of 7412-5 on the X20 BEFORE they MAX'd them... Would be logical wouldn't it?

(13 Jan 2016, 7:53 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Think Arriva should have trialled one of 7412-5 on the X20 BEFORE they MAX'd them... Would be logical wouldn't it?

Problem there is to have done that, you would have had to trial it still with duel door layout for London and it would be rather confusing having a red liveried bus turning up. About the only only other things that you could have done is loaned 7410/7411 to Ashington to see how they coped and then refurbish them but that would have meant it would be more for them being off the road and it seems like if a bus is not used in a while it can cause problems (eg. Darlington's ex demonstrator EcoCitys suffer from their lack of usage before Arriva bought them). Another thing would be to have loaned one of the examples refurbished to standard specification which went to other Arriva divisions.

(13 Jan 2016, 7:53 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Think Arriva should have trialled one of 7412-5 on the X20 BEFORE they MAX'd them... Would be logical wouldn't it?

true but arriva dont pick the simple option

I think someone at Ashington is getting their wires crossed as I am told 7412-15 will still be used for the X20.
The VLAs are due to be split between Ashington and Durham, enabling us to rid of the 7436-44 Lowlanders and it's likely what's left of the Cadets will also be seen off. There is an added complication in that some deckers look likely to move to Yorkshire, although this is expected to be a small number so could be some of our DLAs ousted from Ashington. Either way the plan is that the Great North Road services 43/44/45 will become fully double deck increasing capacity on those using DLAs moved to Jesmond.

(13 Jan 2016, 9:44 am)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]I think someone at Ashington is getting their wires crossed as I am told 7412-15 will still be used for the X20.
The VLAs are due to be split between Ashington and Durham, enabling us to rid of the 7436-44 Lowlanders and it's likely what's left of the Cadets will also be seen off. There is an added complication in that some deckers look likely to move to Yorkshire, although this is expected to be a small number so could be some of our DLAs ousted from Ashington. Either way the plan is that the Great North Road services 43/44/45 will become fully double deck increasing capacity on those using DLAs moved to Jesmond.

I've had the VLAs confirmed by four people now? 

7412 and 7415 are still being tested on the 35. They're not handling it well at all. 

I've even made sure that it was the VLAs that are coming for the X20, not them mistaking the B7s for the current ones - and was told that 7412-5 were not being used. It seems to be a pretty strong rumour if they're not coming.

(13 Jan 2016, 5:39 am)buss14 wrote [ -> ]i think arriva will have 7412-5 on a trial run for two weeks and see how they perform then there will be more likely be a decision make after but in the end the 4 b7tls that where intended for the x20 may go to jesmond to go with the 51 regs and the 02 regs

X16 perhaps...? 

Nothing's been confirmed yet for 7412-5. 7410/11 haven't been branded MAX yet, so there's a possibility that something's happening with them.

(13 Jan 2016, 10:32 am)GX03 SVC wrote [ -> ]X16 perhaps...? 

Nothing's been confirmed yet for 7412-5. 7410/11 haven't been branded MAX yet, so there's a possibility that something's happening with them.

The only place they could go realistically would be Durham.
7445/6 I believe are also due to go for MAX refurbishment shortly, if not already.

(13 Jan 2016, 10:56 am)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]The only place they could go realistically would be Durham.
7445/6 I believe are also due to go for MAX refurbishment shortly, if not already.

7446 was in service at Ashington yesterday:
https://flic.kr/p/CCA7LJ

2805 has just appeared in Darlington on DT duties

(12 Jan 2016, 11:12 pm)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]So, what deckers should have been done for the 6 then? And, considering there's only 3 E400s and the X20 needs 4........

We also now have to consider that 7412-5 now have no home considering these ALX400s are going on the X20 (and also to Durham - I did hear Jesmond were due some so I expect they are the ones now losing out on the B7s). So, where do 7412-5 go now? No good for the Summer X93 if they can't handle the X20 which is a far less demanding route.

As for 13 year old ex-London deckers on demanding routes you claim is 'beyond belief' - 7484-91/3/4 managed the X93 fine when they arrived from London 2 years ago when they were more-or-less the same age as 7412-5. Ok yes, they had to stop half way up Flyingthorpe Bank to drop down a gear but still.

Managed fine?! So why did they go out and buy 7401-6?

(13 Jan 2016, 9:44 am)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]I think someone at Ashington is getting their wires crossed as I am told 7412-15 will still be used for the X20.
The VLAs are due to be split between Ashington and Durham, enabling us to rid of the 7436-44 Lowlanders and it's likely what's left of the Cadets will also be seen off. There is an added complication in that some deckers look likely to move to Yorkshire, although this is expected to be a small number so could be some of our DLAs ousted from Ashington. Either way the plan is that the Great North Road services 43/44/45 will become fully double deck increasing capacity on those using DLAs moved to Jesmond.

They'll need more than the number confirmed so far to do all that won't they?!

Don't forget that 7441/3 are already considered as for disposal on the latest allocation.
That leaves 7436, 7437, 7438, 7439, 7440, 7442 to be shifted from Durham. I believe there are 8 Volvo B7TL / ALX400 going to Durham, this would replace the 6 Lowlanders and 2 other vehicles.
This would leave Ashington with the other 4 (as there are 12 transferring in from London) - plus the 3 VLW's not yet received (on paper) - this would displace 7468, 7470, 7475, 7479, 7481, 7485 + 1 other bus.

(13 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm)Cock Robin wrote [ -> ]Managed fine?! So why did they go out and buy 7401-6?

Because they were an embarrassment as were the E400's they dumped on the X93 ! Pure and simple. Constant breakdowns and as for their hill climbing ability ? I can get up Birk Brow on crutches.  The X93 is a premier route with passenger numbers and revenue and had to be (at last) marketed as such. How long 7401-6 is of course questionable.

(13 Jan 2016, 1:44 pm)scania driver wrote [ -> ]Because they were an embarrassment as were the E400's they dumped on the X93 ! Pure and simple. Constant breakdowns and as for their hill climbing ability ? I can get up Birk Brow on crutches.  The X93 is a premier route with passenger numbers and revenue and had to be (at last) marketed as such. How long 7401-6 is of course questionable.

Got to admit the B7TL's were a huge improvement on the E400's which kept breaking down all over the place though. They were brought in to "steady the ship" as it were, and were never going to be a long term solution to the problem. Obviously the investment in brand new vehicles had to be justified and in the end it was, with the B9TL's coming from dealer stock instead of cascaded (older) ones from Yorkshire which I believe was mooted at one point. I'd like to think 7401-6 will last a good few years though - punctuality/reliability figures have gone through the roof, and in turn we are seeing huge growth year on year.

(13 Jan 2016, 1:52 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]Got to admit the B7TL's were a huge improvement on the E400's which kept breaking down all over the place though. They were brought in to "steady the ship" as it were, and were never going to be a long term solution to the problem. Obviously the investment in brand new vehicles had to be justified and in the end it was, with the B9TL's coming from dealer stock instead of cascaded (older) ones from Yorkshire which I believe was mooted at one point. I'd like to think 7401-6 will last a good few years though - punctuality/reliability figures have gone through the roof, and in turn we are seeing huge growth year on year.

With you on the last points about punctuality and reliability. Was being a little sarcastic with my last remark. Engineering at Dormanstown / Redcar does seem to have improved over the past 2-3 years. As a point of interest, will 7486/7 be returning when the summer timetable/PVR requirement comes into being?

(13 Jan 2016, 2:01 pm)scania driver wrote [ -> ]With you on the last points about punctuality and reliability. Was being a little sarcastic with my last remark. Engineering at Dormanstown / Redcar does seem to have improved over the past 2-3 years. As a point of interest, will 7486/7 be returning when the summer timetable/PVR requirement comes into being?

Yes they should be returning from Blyth, along with 7485 from Ashington. I believe they're up there to give them some leeway to getting their VDL Gemini's sorted out which are plaguing them with faults at the moment. There's still 3 outstanding on the MAX refurbs too so I'm hoping now the Yorkshire ones are complete they'll be in for refurb - if anyone can confirm they are 7603, 7605 and 7606.
I'd hazard a guess that the summer timetable will be exactly the same as last year which would be the first time that has happened recently, and at least the regulars would know which trips to avoid. I wonder if there are plans to boost the Whitby Park & Ride further though??

(13 Jan 2016, 2:09 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]Yes they should be returning from Blyth, along with 7485 from Ashington. I believe they're up there to give them some leeway to getting their VDL Gemini's sorted out which are plaguing them with faults at the moment. There's still 3 outstanding on the MAX refurbs too so I'm hoping now the Yorkshire ones are complete they'll be in for refurb - if anyone can confirm they are 7603, 7605 and 7606.
I'd hazard a guess that the summer timetable will be exactly the same as last year which would be the first time that has happened recently, and at least the regulars would know which trips to avoid. I wonder if there are plans to boost the Whitby Park & Ride further though??

Clearly the Park and Ride must be a huge sucess for them then.

I'm now being told that 7412-5 are now for the X20, and are to receive route branding imminently, with the launch wishing the next month.

3 further Volvo B7TL/Alexander ALX400s are for Ashington in Arriva spec, maybe for the half upgraded 35...?

I'm told there are no intentions to refurbish 7445/6 for any Ashington services.

All from another source........gods sake.

(13 Jan 2016, 2:46 pm)GX03 SVC wrote [ -> ]I'm now being told that 7412-5 are now for the X20, and are to receive route branding imminently, with the launch wishing the next month.

3 further Volvo B7TL/Alexander ALX400s are for Ashington in Arriva spec, maybe for the half upgraded 35...?

I'm told there are no intentions to refurbish 7445/6 for any Ashington services.

All from another source........gods sake.

Yup they should be for the 35. Should be pushing the DAF ALX400's out to Jesmond.