(19 Feb 2022, 8:23 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]I am told tonight, from a reliable source that Arriva have ordered 19 E400 MMC and 14 E200 MMC for delivery by the summer.
These will replace the elderly double deckers at Ashington/Newcastle and the Solos at Newcastle ready for the CAZ.
I'm I actually reading this correctly. Arriva & ordered do not mix
(20 Feb 2022, 2:45 am)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Is the X10/X11 move to Ashington still happening? Could be new buses for that, cascading the Geminis to the 35 and current Jesmond routes.
Don't believe so, it never made sense anyway.
Whatever happens though Blyth needs more Decker's for the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11/306/308 as they have to be all Decker operated when the depot changes come around as there's no space for singles at the new Blyth depot. Only 15 spots and they're pretty much guaranteed to be the Streetlite's for the 52/53/54 which are supposedly moving across.
If I had to make a guess though I'd guess
3x - X21/X22
4x - X15
5x - X18
7x - 306 (Reduced to every 20 minutes)
7529 - 7533 - 35
7553 - 7556 - X20
Blyth's Pulsars - 1/2/X14
7511/7512/7534 + Pulsars - Ashington Spares
43/44/45 - 12 Pulsars
685 - 3 Sapphire Pulsars
52/53/54 - Streetlites
7557/7558/7560/7561 - Jesmond Spares
7501 - 7509/7514 - 7517 - Durham or Redcar to join their sisters and see off the B7's and Gemini's down there.
7522/7523 - Whitby
7609/7610 - Blyth
7601 - 7613 - X7/X8/X9
7616 - 7625 - X10/X11
7628 - 7635 - 308 (Also reduced to every 20 minutes)
7614/7615/7636/7637 - Blyth Spares
I'll probably be totally wrong though.
(20 Feb 2022, 8:30 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Don't believe so, it never made sense anyway.
Whatever happens though Blyth needs more Decker's for the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11/306/308 as they have to be all Decker operated when the depot changes come around as there's no space for singles at the new Blyth depot. Only 15 spots and they're pretty much guaranteed to be the Streetlite's for the 52/53/54 which are supposedly moving across.
If I had to make a guess though I'd guess
7x - 306 (Reduced to every 20 minutes)
7628 - 7635 - 308 (Also reduced to every 20 minutes)
Would Arriva not want to use the same vehicle type on the 306 & 308 though? As it stands, you'd be correct if they remained standalone. The 308 for timekeeping and suitable layovers would need a PVR of 8 and the 306 would need a PVR of 7.
A PVR drop from 18 to 15 vehicles is less than 20%. Now the 308 could 'just' run on a PVR of 7 if the Haymarket layover was reduced to 7 minutes, giving an extra minute to Blyth increasing it to 4 minutes. But if they wanted to make bigger savings whilst keeping suitable layovers, they'd need to eventually pull the 306 out Battle Hill Drive and keep both on the Coast Road. Interworking on a PVR of 14, they'd have the following layovers compared to current Monday-Friday frequency:
- Haymarket = 8 minutes (same as 308 currently gets and an extra minute for 306)
- Whitley Bay (306) = 5 minutes (same as current half-hourly 306 runs to Whitley Bay get)
- Blyth (308) = 13 minutes (same as 308 currently gets)
Not forgetting that if the 308 ran standalone with a PVR of 8 and didn't interwork with the 306, a round trip would be 2hr 40m. That would limit driving hours as 2x round trips would push it close to the 5hr 30m limit. Interworking the 306 & 308 with the 306 taken out of Battle Hill but still serving Whitley Bay would be a 4hr 40m round trip.
And for the work that the 306 & 308 do, E400MMCs are too heavy duty. StreetDecks would be more than ample.
(20 Feb 2022, 9:40 am)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Would Arriva not want to use the same vehicle type on the 306 & 308 though? As it stands, you'd be correct if they remained standalone. The 308 for timekeeping and suitable layovers would need a PVR of 8 and the 306 would need a PVR of 7.
A PVR drop from 18 to 15 vehicles is less than 20%. Now the 308 could 'just' run on a PVR of 7 if the Haymarket layover was reduced to 7 minutes, giving an extra minute to Blyth increasing it to 4 minutes. But if they wanted to make bigger savings whilst keeping suitable layovers, they'd need to eventually pull the 306 out Battle Hill Drive and keep both on the Coast Road. Interworking on a PVR of 14, they'd have the following layovers compared to current Monday-Friday frequency:
- Haymarket = 8 minutes (same as 308 currently gets and an extra minute for 306)
- Whitley Bay (306) = 5 minutes (same as current half-hourly 306 runs to Whitley Bay get)
- Blyth (308) = 13 minutes (same as 308 currently gets)
Not forgetting that if the 308 ran standalone with a PVR of 8 and didn't interwork with the 306, a round trip would be 2hr 40m. That would limit driving hours as 2x round trips would push it close to the 5hr 30m limit. Interworking the 306 & 308 with the 306 taken out of Battle Hill but still serving Whitley Bay would be a 4hr 40m round trip.
And for the work that the 306 & 308 do, E400MMCs are too heavy duty. StreetDecks would be more than ample.
It would be better ideally but whatever happens there's going to be a split allocation somewhere and arguably the 306/308 would be the best one there.
My thinking behind it eventually you'll end up with:
Blyth: DB300 / Enviro 400 MMC / Streetlite
Ashington: Pulsar / Enviro 400 / Enviro 400 MMC / Solo
Jesmond (Walkergate): Pulsar / Enviro 200 MMC
Argubly next in line for replacement would be the DB300's anyway so you'd start to get all of Blyth's depots an Enviro 400 MMC fleet. Otherwise your going to end up with classic Enviro 400's operating random boards on the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11 at Blyth since there's no space for Pulsars and they need Deckers or sending shagged Enviro's from Ashington which need to be a lesser role imo.
Btw wouldn't the round trip for the 308 just be 4 hours 55 mins or so, just depends how you do the layovers really - I do believe they'll interwork though eventually with a PVR 15 though when it moves.
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 7.5 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 22.5 Min Layover
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 7.5 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 5 Mins) - end of shift (22.5 layover with no staff).
Eventually I think it'll be roughly
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 6 Mins) - 10 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Whitley Bay (1 Hour 2 Mins) - 16 Min Layover
Whitley Bay -> Newcastle (1 Hour 2 Mins) - 10 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 6 Mins) - end of shift (8 Min Layover)
Just worked it out there's not much more you can do with keeping the buses every 10 minutes in both directions.
(20 Feb 2022, 9:57 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Btw wouldn't the round trip for the 308 just be 4 hours 55 mins or so, just depends how you do the layovers really - I do believe they'll interwork though eventually with a PVR 15 though when it moves.
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 7.5 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 22.5 Min Layover
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 5 Mins) - 7.5 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 5 Mins) - end of shift (22.5 layover with no staff).
Eventually I think it'll be roughly
Blyth -> Newcastle (1 Hour 6 Mins) - 10 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Whitley Bay (1 Hour 2 Mins) - 16 Min Layover
Whitley Bay -> Newcastle (1 Hour 2 Mins) - 10 Min Layover
Newcastle -> Blyth (1 Hour 6 Mins) - end of shift (8 Min Layover)
Just worked it out there's not much more you can do with keeping the buses every 10 minutes in both directions.
I get your first one, it would work something like this:
- Blyth: 00:00
- Newcastle: 01:06
- Newcastle: 01:14
- Blyth: 02:17 >> 23 min layover
- Blyth: 02:40
- Newcastle: 03:46
- Newcastle: 03:54
- Blyth: 04:57
The only thing I'd say to the above is that if Arriva wanted to reduce frequency and 'give way' to GNE becoming the 'lead' Coast Road operator (every 6-7 mins vs every 10 mins), they'd want to reduce costs as much as possible to compensate. But saying that, a longer layover in Blyth would go some way to improve reliability.
I'd even suggest Arriva & GNE go one step further if the CMA allowed (regardless of BSIP) and create more harmony with the 308 & 309 including ticketing. It could be done looking at the below example but the 306 would have to be pulled out of Battle Hill.
ANE 308
308 Blyth/NCL: 00:23 - 01:29
308 NCL/Blyth (interworked from 306): 01:27 - 02:30
GoNE 309
309 Blyth/NCL: 00:10 - 01:17
309 (interworked from 311) NCL/Blyth: 01:17 - 02:23
308 & 306 interworking pattern
308 - Blyth: 00:23
308- NCL: 01:29
306 - NCL: 01:37
306 - WBay: 02:35 (-3 mins not serving Battle Hill)
306 - WBay: 02:40
306 - NCL: 03:39 (-3 mins not serving Battle Hill)
308 - NCL: 03:47
308 - Blyth: 04:50
So ex Newcastle, it would be 07, 17, 27, 37, 47, 57. And ex Blyth, it would be 03, 10, 23, 30, 43, 50.
(20 Feb 2022, 11:03 am)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]I get your first one, it would work something like this:
- Blyth: 00:00
- Newcastle: 01:06
- Newcastle: 01:14
- Blyth: 02:17 >> 23 min layover
- Blyth: 02:40
- Newcastle: 03:46
- Newcastle: 03:54
- Blyth: 04:57
The only thing I'd say to the above is that if Arriva wanted to reduce frequency and 'give way' to GNE becoming the 'lead' Coast Road operator (every 6-7 mins vs every 10 mins), they'd want to reduce costs as much as possible to compensate. But saying that, reliability with a longer layover in Blyth would go some way to improve reliability.
I'd even suggest Arriva & GNE go one step further if the CMA allowed (regardless of BSIP) and create more harmony with the 308 & 309 including ticketing.
Honestly I think the 311 will go eventually aswell tbh. Then there'll be 12 buses an hour along there every 5 minutes up until Station Road where it'll drop to every 10 minutes via the Coast Road Direct or 10 minutes through Battle Hill via High Farm.
If we're working in harmony with joined tickets etc and being serious about it I'd kinda like to see the 306 be diverted along Verne Road aswell, it would only take a couple of minutes (if that) and miss the lights at Billy Mill and the dangerous left to right turn and give those areas a more direct service in the process.
Nice cleaner timetables for everyone rather than the current 10/20, 6/5/7, 8/12 depending where you are. The extra 5 mins or so on the 309 route via High Farm and Cobalt would eventually tie up at the other end to offer a 10 minute service between Rake Lane and South Beach.
Btw the 5 mins at Whitley would be too tight I think, if it loses time then it's buggared until it gets back to Blyth if their working together the layover really needs to be there imo, not to mention stand clashes at Haymarket.
(20 Feb 2022, 11:13 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Btw the 5 mins at Whitley would be too tight I think, if it loses time then it's buggared until it gets back to Blyth if their working together the layover really needs to be there imo, not to mention stand clashes at Haymarket.
Or taking advantage of a longer layover, perhaps re-route away from Marden Quarry and straight down Mast Lane through Cullercoats and up Whitley Road to provide a combined frequency with GNE's 1?
Going back to orders, I'd be surprised to see any new deckers heading to Jesmond. But.....that could be the case, if Arriva perhaps want to see 7401-7406 out until they're 8 year old and then potentially look at a large OM936 StreetDeck order for the X15/X18/X93 although E400MMCs would be ok for the first 2x routes.
I do hope that if Arriva order the E400MMC they go for ZF gearboxes & 10.9m length.
(20 Feb 2022, 12:31 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Or taking advantage of a longer layover, perhaps re-route away from Marden Quarry and straight down Mast Lane through Cullercoats and up Whitley Road to provide a combined frequency with GNE's 1?
Going back to orders, I'd be surprised to see any new deckers heading to Jesmond. But.....that could be the case, if Arriva perhaps want to see 7401-7406 out until they're 8 year old and then potentially look at a large OM936 StreetDeck order for the X15/X18/X93 although E400MMCs would be ok for the first 2x routes.
I do hope that if Arriva order the E400MMC they go for ZF gearboxes & 10.9m length.
Aye wouldn't be the worst idea that tbf like.
See I think they will me as Jesmond is effectively Blyth now as the routes will be moving and the fact the 1/2 are going soon would suggest the plans are going to be sooner than expected. I can't see them wanting to send shagged Enviro's anywhere near Blyth when the movements happen and it can't be singles so they need something there. Believe it's rumoured the 306/52/53/54 are all going to Blyth so the 306 just seems the obvious one. The 43/44/45 can then hoover up all the Pulsar's lingering around lately (There's at least 6 at Blyth without a route soon, the new Liverpool ones and then the ex 306 ones aswell) and then Walkergate can be a Pulsar/Minibus depot. It also means Blyth's fleet age would come down as it's getting rather elderly now, the newest bus there is 10 year old now.
It all adds up aswell
Blyth (43 Decker / 15 Single capacity) = 31/33 Gemini's (if Whitby's came), 7 Enviro 400 MMC and 14 Streetlite's
Walkergate (30 Capacity) = 14 Enviro 200 MMC, 16 Pulsar (3 685, 12 43/44/45)
Can't see anything for the X93 for awhile though tbh. I think they'll flog the B9's until their death bed. They're pretty much guaranteed to be 10.4m aswell since it's all Blyth can fit in the new depot plans.
(20 Feb 2022, 12:31 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]I do hope that if Arriva order the E400MMC they go for ZF gearboxes & 10.9m length.
Not that they won't opt for ZF now that they can have stop start with a ZF setup, but the current MMCs with Voith 'boxes are fantastic performers on anything they're thrown at. Reasonably good acceleration on stop-start work, but equally more than happy sitting at 60 on dual carriageways.
(19 Feb 2022, 8:23 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]I am told tonight, from a reliable source that Arriva have ordered 19 E400 MMC and 14 E200 MMC for delivery by the summer.
These will replace the elderly double deckers at Ashington/Newcastle and the Solos at Newcastle ready for the CAZ.
I'd say the E400MMC's would be shared across Services 43/44/45 & 308 as they have a combined PVR of 19, this would release E400 Classics (7501-7509) & DB300 Geminis (7629-7637) to be replaced older deckers in the fleet.
The E200MMC's would then be allocated to services 52/54 & 306 releasing the 14 Eco-Green Streetlites (1574-1589) to be allocated elsewhere.
It could be , based on the suggested numbers alone, the E200s could go directly to see off the more elderly vehicles in the fleet, namely the squadron of Omnicities, that will be, by Summer, well into their 18th year.
(20 Feb 2022, 9:16 pm)9920up wrote [ -> ]It could be , based on the suggested numbers alone, the E200s could go directly to see off the more elderly vehicles in the fleet, namely the squadron of Omnicities, that will be, by Summer, well into their 18th year.
Omnicity's are all gone already. Must admit I only learnt that this morning. Never mentioned on here and went very quietly.
They'll be minibuses I guess though if they're replacing the Solo's, same as the GCT ones.
(20 Feb 2022, 3:52 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Not that they won't opt for ZF now that they can have stop start with a ZF setup, but the current MMCs with Voith 'boxes are fantastic performers on anything they're thrown at. Reasonably good acceleration on stop-start work, but equally more than happy sitting at 60 on dual carriageways.
Funnily enough, Voiths would be ideal for the exact routes (bar the X10) that GNE use their E400MMCs on for the likes of Lobley Hill Bank, Dunston Bank, parts of Derwentside etc. Likewise, Stagecoach use them as they're off the mark around the doors. Flat out though, ZF is a better performer.
Arriva with their Dennis Tridents/E400/E400MMC went:
- Dennis Trident ALX400 - Voith
- Enviro 400 Classic - ZF
- Enviro 400 MMC - Voith
The only reason Arriva went with Voith on the MMC was because stop/start wasn't available with the ZF Ecolife back in 2017. But has been an option since 2019 (as seen with GoNE/EY & Transdev).
(20 Feb 2022, 11:22 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Funnily enough, Voiths would be ideal for the exact routes (bar the X10) that GNE use their E400MMCs on for the likes of Lobley Hill Bank, Dunston Bank, parts of Derwentside etc. Likewise, Stagecoach use them as they're off the mark around the doors. Flat out though, ZF is a better performer.
Arriva with their Dennis Tridents/E400/E400MMC went:
- Dennis Trident ALX400 - Voith
- Enviro 400 Classic - ZF
- Enviro 400 MMC - Voith
Do you have much experience driving the Voith equipped MMCs that Arriva have? Drivers I've talked to at Ashington much prefer the MMCs with their Voith boxes on express work to pretty much anything else. Ultimately, they hold 60 on long dual carriageway stretches (i.e A1 Gosforth to Clifton, or A189 Moor Farm to North Seaton) more than comfortably, and it never sounds as if the engine is too strained.
Mechanically those MMCs are rock solid too, so unless there's a substantial cost difference or something along those lines, I don't see why they'd switch away from a reliable setup.
(21 Feb 2022, 12:47 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Do you have much experience driving the Voith equipped MMCs that Arriva have? Drivers I've talked to at Ashington much prefer the MMCs with their Voith boxes on express work to pretty much anything else. Ultimately, they hold 60 on long dual carriageway stretches (i.e A1 Gosforth to Clifton, or A189 Moor Farm to North Seaton) more than comfortably, and it never sounds as if the engine is too strained.
Mechanically those MMCs are rock solid too, so unless there's a substantial cost difference or something along those lines, I don't see why they'd switch away from a reliable setup.
But why did Arriva originally move away from Voith to ZF instead of going for Voith in the classic E400s? Obviously enhanced BSOG made the decision quite easy for the case of going down the Voith S/S route for the E400MMC.
Obviously I'm not saying Voith gearboxes are bad as they've been used in various 'tanks' including DAF/VDL DB250s and of course the OM936 StreetDeck. But the Cummins 6.7l engine coupled with the ZF Ecolife is a better combination flat out.
GNE tried the E400MMC City with a Voith gearbox and S/S on the X9/X10 back in 2016 and then ended up opting for B5TLs in 2016 due to the fact they trusted and knew Volvo products. But I'm sure if the E400MMC with ZF and S/S was available at the time with the incentive over the B5TL (enhanced BSOG) to take a risk with a different product, perhaps they would've done.