(16 Feb 2023, 8:37 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
So what is an acceptable level of per passenger subsidy irrespective of operating model?
I don't understand the argument you're making, if I'm honest! Shouldn't we treat public transport as infrastructure, just as we treat energy, water, healthcare, telecoms etc? We all rely on it, but seems to become a dirty word when we talk about spending public money on it.
I've outlined already the reasons why it's important that it exists.
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The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 9:29 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]I don't disagree, but we've all seen the article about the W2 in the Chronicle about what happens when a route is at risk!
Aye some fair points there, I don't know it just doesn't work and pointless. The W1 is just as bad shoehorning every estate pointlessly and neither ever have anyone on when I ever see them.
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
6 or 7 passengers travelling on a trip that takes an hour obviously doesn't meet Nexus criteria for
Value
For
Money (maximum cost per passenger) - and especially as there is "competition across most of the route"
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
See personally I'd prefer the opposite where a bus is a bus, there's one ticket and you can use it on any bus and they're all branded the same. Whether it's Stagecoach, GoNorthEast, Arriva, GCT etc is irrelevant really and complicates things and is one of the massive benefits of London.
Imo the operators would actually benefit long term if they did it aswell as they've carved their own areas up so it's not like 95% of people have any choice who to use anyway and in the places they do it's just a more frequent service like the Coast Road changes.
It's not like someone really cares it's GNE or Arriva in the real world. It would make the council services more popular imo as most of them just don't exist online and if they do they're ran by weird operators without any ticket validity.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
Exactly why journeys should be marked on timetables that are subsised (Inc part) like they used to be.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
And those things don't need to be too expensive either.
Whether it be a suffix/prefix ahead of the service number, indications or symbols on timetables or a display by the saloon door - there would clearly be confirmation that it's a subsidised service.
(16 Feb 2023, 11:22 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]See personally I'd prefer the opposite where a bus is a bus, there's one ticket and you can use it on any bus and they're all branded the same. Whether it's Stagecoach, GoNorthEast, Arriva, GCT etc is irrelevant really and complicates things and is one of the massive benefits of London.
Imo the operators would actually benefit long term if they did it aswell as they've carved their own areas up so it's not like 95% of people have any choice who to use anyway and in the places they do it's just a more frequent service like the Coast Road changes.
It's not like someone really cares it's GNE or Arriva in the real world. It would make the council services more popular imo as most of them just don't exist online and if they do they're ran by weird operators without any ticket validity.
I agree lots of what you’re saying.
RE: ticketing etc. This needs to be where BSIP and the like need to make an impact. I shouldn’t be penalised with needing two separate returns/day tickets for going 5 miles, just because one area has just a GNE bus and the other has only Arriva etc. The winder NE has needed more cross operator tickets for years. I worry about implementation of such schemes though, as yet another ticket/zone scheme + what the existing commercial operators have just feels like a mess.
RE: branding etc. that works well in London, where services are all under contract to TFL, such a move doesn’t work in our commercial vs some council funded services imo. I’ve always sat somewhere on the fence about things like the Quality Contracts Scheme that was purposed a few years back now, I saw the benefits but I did think there were some drawbacks. But now? After seeing the decimation of local services in the post-Covid world in particular I do think the commercial operations are no longer fit for purpose.
RE: Information. This is something that gets me and links to be initially point below. Easy access of information is hard to find. For Durham, there’s no information on what services are run under contract to them. Which isn’t so much of an issue when you’ve got GNE or Arriva doing those services as they’ve got websites and apps where information is easily accessible. But as you say, some smaller independent operators have zero or a very limited online presence, which means that there’ll be passengers who probably don’t even know the timetable of some of these services being funded on their behalf!
My actually initial point though - is more about the public should have easy access to know what’s tax payer funded, would Joe Public be surprised to learn the 71 is paid for Durham County Council? Or that certain journeys on a night are only still going because Nexus is funding the bill? You’re right average passenger probably doesn’t care that much, but it’s transparency that I think would be useful. Timetables is years gone by used to have even the somewhat vague statement ‘part of this service runs under contract to XX’ but at least that was something. And as someone pointed out above, even not too long ago there was nexus symbols on timetables which indicated that particular run ran under financial support.
(17 Feb 2023, 12:16 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]And those things don't need to be too expensive either.
Whether it be a suffix/prefix ahead of the service number, indications or symbols on timetables or a display by the saloon door - there would clearly be confirmation that it's a subsidised service.
Absolutely - a simple list on the Council website of subsidised services or a small footnote on timetable would be a start!
(16 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]I don't understand the argument you're making, if I'm honest! Shouldn't we treat public transport as infrastructure, just as we treat energy, water, healthcare, telecoms etc? We all rely on it, but seems to become a dirty word when we talk about spending public money on it.
I've outlined already the reasons why it's important that it exists.
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All I'm a asking for is an idea on how much you think is an acceptable level of subsidy per passenger per hour. A debate about how or who operates the buses isn't needed for that.
Get the rotatable sings back in the front of buese
Go North eat
Transfare bus
Secured Service
Secured Service and transfare bus
Another job for the driver mind!
(17 Feb 2023, 10:12 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]Get the rotatable sings back in the front of buese
Go North eat
Transfare bus
Secured Service
Secured Service and transfare bus
Another job for the driver mind!
Easily an extra 50p an hour for the driver to rotate the thing. Also needs a risk assessment carried out as the driver could easily injure their hand or wrist.
(17 Feb 2023, 10:12 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]Get the rotatable sings back in the front of buese
Go North eat
Transfare bus
Secured Service
Secured Service and transfare bus
Another job for the driver mind!
These rotacubes signage were also displayed on the bottom blind of a double destination blind on OK buses .(PTE secured service)
They could be programmed on any destination display now ( modern technology )
Didn't GNE have information on ticket validity scrolling along the bottom of the screen on nexus services once upon a time?
I mean it could easily be solved by mandating the bus be in battleship grey and red again
(17 Feb 2023, 1:22 pm)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]Easily an extra 50p an hour for the driver to rotate the thing. Also needs a risk assessment carried out as the driver could easily injure their hand or wrist.
dont want them to get a wrist injury. might stop them waving at me when they leave early at Eldon square and im beggin them not to leave me there for an hour till the next one!
(20 Feb 2023, 11:08 am)Retro Nero wrote [ -> ]These rotacubes signage were also displayed on the bottom blind of a double destination blind on OK buses .(PTE secured service)
They could be programmed on any destination display now ( modern technology )
Don't remember them tbh - certainly not on the 44b that i used to get to school. Good idea though can they fit any more information on those screen with bus number on the left ( or right) 69 different destinations rolling across the screen the RIP you majasty and Were hiring also..... might miss the bit about who's paying for the service to run!!!!!
(21 Feb 2023, 8:44 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]dont want them to get a wrist injury. might stop them waving at me when they leave early at Eldon square and im beggin them not to leave me there for an hour till the next one!
Don't remember them tbh - certainly not on the 44b that i used to get to school. Good idea though can they fit any more information on those screen with bus number on the left ( or right) 69 different destinations rolling across the screen the RIP you majasty and Were hiring also..... might miss the bit about who's paying for the service to run!!!!!
I found examples from both Arriva & Kingsleys. I'm sure classic, maybe even veolia did it at some point.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127079988@N02/20715751451
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/6862298228
Cant be long until the results of this consultation are released, just under 7 weeks until the changes are due to be implemented
Anyone know when the results will come out?
(11 Apr 2023, 9:30 am)Michael wrote [ -> ]Anyone know when the results will come out?
Operators now know the results and the 10-day cooling off period ends this Friday.
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Results are now out for May.
https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation
Stagecoach 8 - Changes going ahead
79 - Changes not going ahead + a change of operator
79A - Withdrawn
81, 83, 84 and 85 - Changes going ahead
82 - Changes going ahead + change of operator
82A - Withdrawn
135/136 - Withdrawn
168 - Changes going ahead
516 - Changes going ahead
520/521 - 521 withdrawn + Increase the frequency on service 520 to improve the number of trips operating between Houghton-le-Spring Health Centre and Fencehouses - Change of operator.
594 - Changes going ahead
TB1, TB14, TB22, TB23, TB29 all saved
TB92, TB933 withdrawn
How are TB1/14/22/23/29 saved when they get used by 1-3 people per trip, but 135/136 which is used by 5-7 on average per trip being canned.
Whatrs the new operator of 82? I saw smth interesting say GNE tickets will still be accepted i thought that stopped
(17 Apr 2023, 1:31 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]How are TB1/14/22/23/29 saved when they get used by 1-3 people per trip, but 135/136 which is used by 5-7 on average per trip being canned.
Whatrs the new operator of 82? I saw smth interesting say GNE tickets will still be accepted i thought that stopped
It costs Nexus a lot less to run 'taxi buses' than it does local bus services, so it probably relates to the average cost per passenger to Nexus.
The 135/136 running hourly on evenings/Sundays was actually probably quite costly for what it was, and therefore on a 'per passenger' basis, would be quite expensive for Nexus to subsidise.
(17 Apr 2023, 1:10 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]Results are now out for May.
https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation
Stagecoach 8 - Changes going ahead
79 - Changes not going ahead + a change of operator
79A - Withdrawn
81, 83, 84 and 85 - Changes going ahead
82 - Changes going ahead + change of operator
82A - Withdrawn
135/136 - Withdrawn
168 - Changes going ahead
516 - Changes going ahead
520/521 - 521 withdrawn + Increase the frequency on service 520 to improve the number of trips operating between Houghton-le-Spring Health Centre and Fencehouses - Change of operator.
594 - Changes going ahead
TB1, TB14, TB22, TB23, TB29 all saved
TB92, TB933 withdrawn
Hopefully Jh Coaches have took something. Be daft to see gne get the 79/82&520 considering they are giving buses & drivers away
(17 Apr 2023, 5:24 pm)Aaron21 wrote [ -> ]Hopefully Jh Coaches have took something. Be daft to see gne get the 79/82&520 considering they are giving buses & drivers away
Go North East clearly has a large surplus of buses and drivers, hence why they are able to loan and/or transfer them to other companies.
If Go North East has a surplus of buses and drivers, I’m sure they would be delighted to find some additional work…
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(17 Apr 2023, 5:37 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]
Go North East clearly has a large surplus of buses and drivers, hence why they are able to loan and/or transfer them to other companies.
If Go North East has a surplus of buses and drivers, I’m sure they would be delighted to find some additional work…
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So why are journeys still getting cancelled, if they have a large surplus of drivers?
(17 Apr 2023, 5:24 pm)Aaron21 wrote [ -> ]Hopefully Jh Coaches have took something. Be daft to see gne get the 79/82&520 considering they are giving buses & drivers away
personally I hope GNE gain the 82 , it is a hole in their network!
be interesting to see if the 79 and 520 operate as is or built into the network somehow
(17 Apr 2023, 5:40 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]So why are journeys still getting cancelled, if they have a large surplus of drivers?
You can see these are isolated to Riverside only - no other depots have lost mileage for driver availability for some time now.
Every other depot is fully staffed or over-staffed.
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(17 Apr 2023, 5:42 pm)gc802002 wrote [ -> ]personally I hope GNE gain the 82 , it is a hole in their network!
be interesting to see if the 79 and 520 operate as is or built into the network somehow
Easily run off the 39A.
Also might give them a big layover as it does struggle with reliability.