Obviously this is only one side of the story, but I fear it's yet another example of why the deregulated market isn't working. Whatever your opinion on the market we have to day, it is not right that people should be risking losing vital transport links.
Well done, Spirit, for the invaluable services that you have provided for those passengers who are 'off the grid'.
I hope that there is something that can be done to ensure your survival.
(09 Sep 2016, 10:18 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Obviously this is only one side of the story, but I fear it's yet another example of why the deregulated market isn't working. Whatever your opinion on the market we have to day, it is not right that people should be risking losing vital transport links.
Yes, I agree with deregulation in principle but there should be a statutory duty on local authorities to provide supported services.
(10 Sep 2016, 12:56 pm)Cock Robin wrote [ -> ]Yes, I agree with deregulation in principle but there should be a statutory duty on local authorities to provide supported services.
By 'provide supported services' do you mean that services such as those provided by Spirit Buses should be run by the local authority?
To me, these services should be 'encouraged' - with interacting services by operators such as Arriva being scheduled to correspond to the Spirit Buses services to allow Spirit Buses to operate profitably within their sphere.
This is presents difficulties, of course, with Arriva (and others) being competitors (and Spirit having limited ability to alter their timings to follow whatever 'Arriva' decide to provide - with Arriva choosing to operate commercially).
And if Spirit succeeded in establishing a profitable operation, wouldn't the bigger operators muscle-in and take over the routes?
The extension of the suggestion would be prohibitively expensive with many buses operating way below capacity.
In some areas, there have been moves to provide dial-a-ride, but I don't know of any such services that are successful.
Of course, if services were cheap enough, then demand would increase - though in sparsely-populated areas this is an impossibility.
I have seen figures for rural services that were previously subsidised by local authority that showed that the cost per ride was way excessive (by anyone's reasoning).
I can remember when several small operators ran rural services (in the 1950s) with many passengers travelling into town on market day.
Today, many of those passengers have cars and choose to travel at their own convenience rather than be restricted to infrequent buses - which deteriorates the bus service until it collapses economically.
(10 Sep 2016, 2:10 pm)G-CPTN wrote [ -> ]By 'provide supported services' do you mean that services such as those provided by Spirit Buses should be run by the local authority?
To me, these services should be 'encouraged' - with interacting services by operators such as Arriva being scheduled to correspond to the Spirit Buses services to allow Spirit Buses to operate profitably within their sphere.
This is presents difficulties, of course, with Arriva (and others) being competitors (and Spirit having limited ability to alter their timings to follow whatever 'Arriva' decide to provide - with Arriva choosing to operate commercially).
And if Spirit succeeded in establishing a profitable operation, wouldn't the bigger operators muscle-in and take over the routes?
The extension of the suggestion would be prohibitively expensive with many buses operating way below capacity.
In some areas, there have been moves to provide dial-a-ride, but I don't know of any such services that are successful.
Of course, if services were cheap enough, then demand would increase - though in sparsely-populated areas this is an impossibility.
I have seen figures for rural services that were previously subsidised by local authority that showed that the cost per ride was way excessive (by anyone's reasoning).
I can remember when several small operators ran rural services (in the 1950s) with many passengers travelling into town on market day.
Today, many of those passengers have cars and choose to travel at their own convenience rather than be restricted to infrequent buses - which deteriorates the bus service until it collapses economically.
That would be fantastic for passengers.
However, what incentive do potentially competing organisations have to integrate their services? You said yourself that Spirit could grow a market to be then see Arriva muscle in.
To be honest, operators often struggle as it is integrating their own services and connections - never mind seeing two operators work together.
It is a shame seeing the likes of Spirit ponder their future, as a result of other operators commercial decisions.
De-regulation has a lot to answer for.
(11 Sep 2016, 4:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]That would be fantastic for passengers.
However, what incentive do potentially competing organisations have to integrate their services? You said yourself that Spirit could grow a market to be then see Arriva muscle in.
To be honest, operators often struggle as it is integrating their own services and connections - never mind seeing two operators work together.
It is a shame seeing the likes of Spirit ponder their future, as a result of other operators commercial decisions.
Your reply has prompted me to recall the furore caused when GNE and Arriva agreed to swap services and depots (well, at least Hexham and Ashington):-
Arriva and Go North East secret bus routes deal exposed.
So I guess Arriva would be cautious about agreeing to accommodate Spirit Buses.
(11 Sep 2016, 5:01 pm)G-CPTN wrote [ -> ]Your reply has prompted me to recall the furore caused when GNE and Arriva agreed to swap services and depots (well, at least Hexham and Ashington):-
Arriva and Go North East secret bus routes deal exposed.
So I guess Arriva would be cautious about agreeing to accommodate Spirit Buses.
The content of those emails still make me laugh.
However on a more serious note - I can't see any mention of passengers or their needs in the article (or similar).
Just as a thought, rather than an allegation... I wonder about the following quote from the CC and wonder if any operators in Northumberland operate in this fashion? Maybe making decisions about services in the area and knowing the impact it would have on what they perceive to be competition.
It also warns that the short-term retaliation seen by the firms has the long-term effect of deterring competition.
It also warns that the short-term retaliation seen by the firms has the long-term effect of deterring competition.
Except that, between Newcastle and Hexham (due to the inconsistent performance of Arriva 685) GNE introduced their own service - by extending a previous service 684 that ran part-way from Hexham to Horsley(?) and this now runs 'faster' than the original Arriva 685 service as X84/X85.
Passengers now have the choice of three services per hour instead of the one (not including the TEN - which was the 602).
(11 Sep 2016, 9:17 pm)G-CPTN wrote [ -> ]Except that, between Newcastle and Hexham (due to the inconsistent performance of Arriva 685) GNE introduced their own service - by extending a previous service 684 that ran part-way from Hexham to Horsley(?) and this now runs 'faster' than the original Arriva 685 service as X84/X85.
Passengers now have the choice of three services per hour instead of the one (not including the TEN - which was the 602).
I agree in some cases, competition will benefit the passenger's along the route. The example you have provided is a clear case of an operator spotting a gap and trying to fill it.
Were those decisions to fill the gap short-term though?
In the case of Spirit, they have cited the extension of the X20, the re-routing of the X15 and a change to the X14 as factors.
This sort of thing may be short-term (or permanent), either way it is having an impact on the likes of Spirit.
(11 Sep 2016, 9:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I agree in some cases, competition will benefit the passenger's along the route. The example you have provided is a clear case of an operator spotting a gap and trying to fill it.
Were those decisions to fill the gap short-term though?
In the case of Spirit, they have cited the extension of the X20, the re-routing of the X15 and a change to the X14 as factors.
This sort of thing may be short-term (or permanent), either way it is having an impact on the likes of Spirit.
however there are some advantages not with the x14 but with x18 and x20 as both route now go to alnwick. and this does mean more people using Travelsure's 472 service I as recently been seeing quite a lot. but as previously posted there are a higher level of disadvantages for business's and passengers
(11 Sep 2016, 9:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I agree in some cases, competition will benefit the passenger's along the route. The example you have provided is a clear case of an operator spotting a gap and trying to fill it.
Were those decisions to fill the gap short-term though?
In the case of Spirit, they have cited the extension of the X20, the re-routing of the X15 and a change to the X14 as factors.
This sort of thing may be short-term (or permanent), either way it is having an impact on the likes of Spirit.
however there are some advantages not with the x14 but with x18 and x20 as both route now go to alnwick. and this does mean more people using Travelsure's 472 service I as recently been seeing quite a lot. but as previously posted there are a higher level of disadvantages for business's and passengers
(09 Sep 2016, 10:18 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Obviously this is only one side of the story, but I fear it's yet another example of why the deregulated market isn't working. Whatever your opinion on the market we have to day, it is not right that people should be risking losing vital transport links.
Can we be absolutely clear here?
This is an example of what happens in a
fully regulated, controlled by the local authority market. The local authority has, for whatever reason, decided to reduce the frequency of the X14. The local authority also supports the Spirit Buses operation. By reducing the X14, they will need to support changes to the Spirit operation either to maintain connections or to make some new arrangements.
This has nothing to do with Arriva's commercially operated services, which make no call upon the council tax payers of Northumberland.
If anything, deregulation means that Steve Hurst was free to 'give it a go', and all credit to him for having the guts to do so. In a fully regulated market, Steve simply wouldn't have had this opportunity and the people of the isolated communities west of Rothbury would have had a much poorer quality of life, as the local authority was completely unable to provide services like Steve's.
Sadly, Steve's services do appear to not have been viable, but the social need for them did attract some local authority (and community) support. The deregulated market allows LAs to do exactly this, and I can appreciate how much more difficult it is when budgets are tight (or reducing).
None of this, though, could possibly be taken to suggest that a fully regulated market would produce better outcomes. This case amply demonstrates that a local authority will always face difficult decisions in transport provision, and will not be able to indefinitely support lightly used bus services.
Think the X14 is going to operate at a timetable of every 100 minutes with 8 journeys per day - Wonder how this will work on the Newcastle-Morpeth section as it will mess up the 15 minute frequency.
(10 Sep 2016, 2:10 pm)G-CPTN wrote [ -> ]By 'provide supported services' do you mean that services such as those provided by Spirit Buses should be run by the local authority?
To me, these services should be 'encouraged' - with interacting services by operators such as Arriva being scheduled to correspond to the Spirit Buses services to allow Spirit Buses to operate profitably within their sphere.
This is presents difficulties, of course, with Arriva (and others) being competitors (and Spirit having limited ability to alter their timings to follow whatever 'Arriva' decide to provide - with Arriva choosing to operate commercially).
And if Spirit succeeded in establishing a profitable operation, wouldn't the bigger operators muscle-in and take over the routes?
The extension of the suggestion would be prohibitively expensive with many buses operating way below capacity.
In some areas, there have been moves to provide dial-a-ride, but I don't know of any such services that are successful.
Of course, if services were cheap enough, then demand would increase - though in sparsely-populated areas this is an impossibility.
I have seen figures for rural services that were previously subsidised by local authority that showed that the cost per ride was way excessive (by anyone's reasoning).
I can remember when several small operators ran rural services (in the 1950s) with many passengers travelling into town on market day.
Today, many of those passengers have cars and choose to travel at their own convenience rather than be restricted to infrequent buses - which deteriorates the bus service until it collapses economically.
I mean they should be tendered by local authorities, not run by them as such. As was the case in Cleveland until Cleveland County Council was abolished. There was a policy of no village being greater than a certain distance from an hourly service. Since then the district councils have annihilated the services.
(12 Sep 2016, 3:18 pm)Tom wrote [ -> ]Think the X14 is going to operate at a timetable of every 100 minutes with 8 journeys per day - Wonder how this will work on the Newcastle-Morpeth section as it will mess up the 15 minute frequency.
I believe that there will be extra X16s running between Morpeth and Newcastle to fill the gap left by withdrawn X14s.
If Ashington were to operate these additional X16s, a Scania OmniCity displaced from X14 would be used.
(13 Sep 2016, 7:14 am)GX03 SVC wrote [ -> ]I believe that there will be extra X16s running between Morpeth and Newcastle to fill the gap left by withdrawn X14s.
If Ashington were to operate these additional X16s, a Scania OmniCity displaced from X14 would be used.
Ah right cheers, may as well just keep the X14 Morpeth-Thropton and offer through tickets on the X15 etc.
Anyone know where the fleet might end up. Possibly to whoever takes on the contract?
(14 Sep 2016, 2:05 pm)eezypeazy wrote [ -> ]Northumberland County Council press release:
http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/News/20...-serv.aspx
Sad inevitability. No one can operate a bus service on £53000 per annum. I am glad the owner has saved himself from further financial distress, admire his attempts and am in deep dissatisfaction at the inability of anyone to end the curse of austerity blighting the North East. You need at least £100,000 per bus to merely survive. I achieved this at the original Leven Valley but still had to let it go to a finer business brain who was unable to perpetuate what my colleagues and I had created.
Every good wish to 'Mr Spirit Bus'.
Paul Thompson
(14 Sep 2016, 7:04 pm)Cock Robin wrote [ -> ]Sad..
that's Is a shame as I have been on their 15 service a few times and I was well impressed with the service provided
(14 Sep 2016, 3:25 pm)Tom wrote [ -> ]There is only 1 bus
Thought they had two or three for some reason
(15 Sep 2016, 6:48 am)Brian13 wrote [ -> ]Thought they had two or three for some reason
i gather the service will go to travelsure or something. it will be nice if glenvalley get the service
(15 Sep 2016, 8:14 am)Designline wrote [ -> ]i gather the service will go to travelsure or something. it will be nice if glenvalley get the service
It's sad that Steve Hurst can't make it work. Travelsure and Glen Valley are probably the only operators who could make a marginal service work in that part of Northumberland. Unlike Spirit they both have more services to spread fixed costs (depot, admin etc) across and tend to use older buses for services so I think they may be able to do something, especially on the Rothbury to Alnwick route.
(15 Sep 2016, 3:56 pm)passenger_10 wrote [ -> ]It's sad that Steve Hurst can't make it work. Travelsure and Glen Valley are probably the only operators who could make a marginal service work in that part of Northumberland. Unlike Spirit they both have more services to spread fixed costs (depot, admin etc) across and tend to use older buses for services so I think they may be able to do something, especially on the Rothbury to Alnwick route.
saying that the council could give rothbury motors a shot at giving the service a go
Beat me to posting this, a real shame indeed. I live in the area and this is a real blow to the community.
I'm gutted about Spirit Buses ending. I found about them by chance whilst having a pint in the Queens Head, Rothbury shortly after they started running the two Darts.
I was probably one of the first users of their Alwinton route and enjoyed a great 4 hours hiking up Clennell Street in the Cheviots. I also enjoyed their Wallington Hall and Elsdon routes.
After a five hour hike across rural Northumberland from Great Whittington to Cambo, you've no idea how great it was to see Spirit's reliable service turning up.
I'll be heading up to Rothbury hopefully shortly to sample their routes for the last time.
Charles
