North East Buses

(11 Jan 2015, 12:05 am)JoshP wrote [ -> ]I rarely use these services so can't really comment. BUT those darts I have to admit are great on town services. London tired them out and the 7 destroyed them but on the 9/10 they're great and they are better than Solos on the 2/11/12. Hey don't diss MPD's they are my absolute favourites

I hate them Darts as they are knackered, also the space between seats is pitiful and causes pain in my knees, so town services are the best place for them.

Quite like MPDs but never get to ride them. Got to ride 1762 on service 62 Durham - Arnison Centre last week though.

Nah they're the 2005 modern darts, I really like the old darts, like 1701-1740's MPD's! God I miss them haha! Used to catch them on the 30/31 to and from school and the 22 from town! The old days when busses ran on time and were generally great!

(11 Jan 2015, 12:27 am)JoshP wrote [ -> ]Nah they're the 2005 modern darts, I really like the old darts, like 1701-1740's MPD's! God I miss them haha! Used to catch them on the 30/31 to and from school and the 22 from town! The old days when busses ran on time and were generally great!

Yeah they were great, shame pretty much all of them are gone now and most of the older MPDs in service are second hand and are horrible to ride.

Recently got to ride a Leven Valley MPD around that age and I enjoyed it, pity it was only a short ride from Stockton to Teesside Park.

(10 Jan 2015, 10:52 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]I think it's Lolynes or Presidents that have much smaller ones? But I know at least the Chester ones do have them.

With the new ETMs being in since that article was written, I'd be surprised if they haven't taken over the function? Surely capable of syncing with a time server.

Yeah, you're right. The Versas (new 2011 onwards) also have smaller ones.
Think they've been kept for the benefit of passengers - indeed 8306 has the clock behind the drivers cab!

Obviously there's no denying that the articles are now outdated, but it goes to show how Peter Huntley revolutionised transport in the North East. Branding was one of the main things he introduced, and competitors have now 'stolen' ideas from the late Huntley, implementing them in their own bus companies, owing to their successes with Go North East.

Just had a look on the Arriva live map, to see if my bus looked like it would be on time and I noticed a couple of things. I can't find any X18's that have tracking, and they're all going around in pairs!? Seems pretty strange... 

(11 Jan 2015, 1:49 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just had a look on the Arriva live map, to see if my bus looked like it would be on time and I noticed a couple of things. I can't find any X18's that have tracking, and they're all going around in pairs!? Seems pretty strange... 

I can see that too. Very strange.

(11 Jan 2015, 1:57 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]I can see that too. Very strange.

Well, despite what the app says, they are only running by themselves  Also, 7532 arrived a good 5 minutes early into Berwick rail station, maybe this was why it wasn't appearing as tracked on the app.

(10 Jan 2015, 4:54 pm)MrPottski wrote [ -> ]I don't see what use branding achieves. Outside of the Sapphire and max, most customers don't really care what colour it is, they look at the destination to see if it's the right one. Plus arriva don't tend to stick to correct brand allocation anyway, and then it only gets us lot in a flap when, say, a Sapphire ends up on the X66 or similar. Surely to god, all companies should just go for a clean, well maintained, well presented fleet and cut out the gimmicks. Don't get me wrong, I think Sapphire has worked, especially on the 7, but when you start ending up with a fleet that resembles Josephs Technicolour Dreamboats (I'm looking at you GNE!) then it's just daft. I genuinely don't think Max will attract any more people in Darlington, bit we'll have to wait and see.

I agree and believe growth would still have been achieved on service 7 with 10 new pulsars and most of all a team of drivers who wanted success Service X1 was a success with 4 of the oldest pulsars in the fleet with a minimum of branding but a dedicated team who overcame the challenge of OK!

Routes X20/20 are to be upgraded to Max later this year.

7519-7521 will be refurbished to Max specification, leaving no "Interurban" liveried Enviro400s in the Arriva North East fleet.

(11 Jan 2015, 3:44 pm)upt50k wrote [ -> ]I agree and believe growth would still have been achieved on service 7 with 10 new pulsars and most of all a team of drivers who wanted success Service X1 was a success with 4 of the oldest pulsars in the fleet with a minimum of branding but a dedicated team who overcame the challenge of OK!

The OK Expressway wasn't really a challenge...?

From what I gather, Arriva had the upper hand pretty much all the way through.

(11 Jan 2015, 5:58 pm)MarcTheA4 wrote [ -> ]The OK Expressway wasn't really a challenge...?

From what I gather, Arriva had the upper hand pretty much all the way through.

Don't start Dan off on that one again!....

In answer to questions about the new brand, yes there will be a new brand introduced in the North East based on the high frequency routes. I understand it will just be branding on the standard fleet livery though, not an altogether new livery (like Sapphire or MAX). No doubt it will be picked up by other regions and adopted once again, just as MAX has been.
I believe it is due to be introduced on routes 7, 13A/13B, 15 and 63 to start with, buses on these routes will gain wi-fi and branding shortly.

(11 Jan 2015, 3:44 pm)upt50k wrote [ -> ]I agree and believe growth would still have been achieved on service 7 with 10 new pulsars and most of all a team of drivers who wanted success Service X1 was a success with 4 of the oldest pulsars in the fleet with a minimum of branding but a dedicated team who overcame the challenge of OK!

Then you compare this to the current situation on the Tyne Valley...

Go North East introduced "Tynedalexpress" services X84/X85 following the withdrawal of "OK Expressway" service OK1, using the same vehicles albeit in a different colour, and these services are a commercial success. Granted, service X84 directly replaced service 684 (and hence the market was already established), but service X85 was a completely new service.

Service X84 departs five minutes prior to Arriva's service 685, and Arriva's 685 often leaves Eldon Square with very few passengers as a result. Go North East's X85 departs ten minutes prior to Arriva's competing X85 on evenings, and again, Arriva's X85 leaves with very few passengers as a result.

Branding may have contributed to the success of the "Tynedalexpress" services on the Tyne Valley, but a bus being 5 minutes in front of the 685 is the main reason why these services are so commercially successful... Wasn't this the case up in Bishop Auckland for Arriva, too? Certainly doesn't take a 'dedicated team' to time a service five minutes in front of a service it competes with!  

(11 Jan 2015, 6:08 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Then you compare this to the current situation on the Tyne Valley...

Go North East introduced "Tynedalexpress" services X84/X85 following the withdrawal of "OK Expressway" service OK1, using the same vehicles albeit in a different colour, and these services are a commercial success. Granted, service X84 directly replaced service 684 (and hence the market was already established), but service X85 was a completely new service.

Service X84 departs five minutes prior to Arriva's service 685, and Arriva's 685 often leaves Eldon Square with very few passengers as a result. Go North East's X85 departs ten minutes prior to Arriva's competing X85 on evenings, and again, Arriva's X85 leaves with very few passengers as a result.

Branding may have contributed to the success of the "Tynedalexpress" services on the Tyne Valley, but a bus being 5 minutes in front of the 685 is the main reason why these services are so commercially successful... Wasn't this the case up in Bishop Auckland for Arriva, too? Certainly doesn't take a 'dedicated team' to time a service five minutes in front of a service it competes with!  

Yeah I believe for most of the OK1s existence the X1 was 5-10 minutes in front. The OK1 also had to compete with the 6 between Bishop Auckland and West Auckland running every 12 minutes.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:08 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Then you compare this to the current situation on the Tyne Valley...

Go North East introduced "Tynedalexpress" services X84/X85 following the withdrawal of "OK Expressway" service OK1, using the same vehicles albeit in a different colour, and these services are a commercial success. Granted, service X84 directly replaced service 684 (and hence the market was already established), but service X85 was a completely new service.

Service X84 departs five minutes prior to Arriva's service 685, and Arriva's 685 often leaves Eldon Square with very few passengers as a result. Go North East's X85 departs ten minutes prior to Arriva's competing X85 on evenings, and again, Arriva's X85 leaves with very few passengers as a result.

Branding may have contributed to the success of the "Tynedalexpress" services on the Tyne Valley, but a bus being 5 minutes in front of the 685 is the main reason why these services are so commercially successful... Wasn't this the case up in Bishop Auckland for Arriva, too? Certainly doesn't take a 'dedicated team' to time a service five minutes in front of a service it competes with!  

More a day ticket that could be used all day (as it's also valid on 1/1b) plus for the fare paying passengers, a guaranteed daily service from the provider helped more than merely being timed 5 minutes in front.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:17 pm)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]More a day ticket that could be used all day (as it's also valid on 1/1b) plus for the fare paying passengers, a guaranteed daily service from the provider helped more than merely being timed 5 minutes in front.

The majority of customers on the X1 were (and possibly still are) OAPs. The reason the X1 got these passengers was because the X1 was timed five minutes in front, and this was therefore the main reason why the X1 was successful.

Arriva had the upper-hand with the onward connections in Darlington, which is why they had more fare-paying customers anyway... Go North East got the ones who could come in on a Go North East bus into Bishop Auckland, and the ones who wanted a direct bus to Middlesbrough, but that was it.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:21 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]The majority of customers on the X1 were (and possibly still are) OAPs. The reason the X1 got these passengers was because the X1 was timed five minutes in front, and this was therefore the main reason why the X1 was successful.

Arriva had the upper-hand with the onward connections in Darlington, which is why they had more fare-paying customers anyway... Go North East got the ones who could come in on a Go North East bus into Bishop Auckland, and the ones who wanted a direct bus to Middlesbrough.

The Middlesbrough bound OK1's left Darlington and Middlesbrough 5 minutes in front of the X66 but it wasn't a success.

There is a fair amount of fare paying custom on the X1 now, or at least there has been when I've been on it.

Like you say Arriva has many connections in Darlington which didn't help the OK1 as it had none in Darlington.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:29 pm)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]The Middlesbrough bound OK1's left Darlington and Middlesbrough 5 minutes in front of the X66 but it wasn't a success.

There is a fair amount of fare paying custom on the X1 now, or at least there has been when I've been on it.

Like you say Arriva has many connections in Darlington which didn't help the OK1 as it had none in Darlington.

See, I'd suggest otherwise.

I don't profess to have been a regular traveller on the OK1, but whenever I used/photographed it, it had a relatively full bus consisting of OAPs and the odd fare-paying passenger who was going all the way back to Bishop Auckland (few and far between).

The X66 had the upper-hand with the Darlington - Middlesbrough stretch because it was much more frequent than the hourly OK1, and again, onward connections at both ends attracted more fare-paying customers.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:29 pm)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]The Middlesbrough bound OK1's left Darlington and Middlesbrough 5 minutes in front of the X66 but it wasn't a success.

There is a fair amount of fare paying custom on the X1 now, or at least there has been when I've been on it.

Like you say Arriva has many connections in Darlington which didn't help the OK1 as it had none in Darlington.

The couple of times I saw the OK1 in Middlesbrough it had some good passenger numbers.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:21 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]The majority of customers on the X1 were (and possibly still are) OAPs. The reason the X1 got these passengers was because the X1 was timed five minutes in front, and this was therefore the main reason why the X1 was successful.

Arriva had the upper-hand with the onward connections in Darlington, which is why they had more fare-paying customers anyway... Go North East got the ones who could come in on a Go North East bus into Bishop Auckland, and the ones who wanted a direct bus to Middlesbrough.

If the X1 if mostly OAPs - explain why it's getting new buses rather than just simply refurbishing its present allocation for its 'MAX' upgrade? The X1 is now the premier service from the Wear Valley into Darlington since they extended it to Tow Law and cut the 1 back to Bishop Auckland during the day.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:33 pm)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]If the X1 if mostly OAPs - explain why it's getting new buses rather than just simply refurbishing its present allocation for its 'MAX' upgrade? The X1 is now the premier service from the Wear Valley into Darlington since they extended it to Tow Law and cut the 1 back to Bishop Auckland during the day.

I don't think this provides any justice to the point you're making though. Let me turn the question around and let you answer it - why are these new buses coming now, and not when the OK1 was operational?

(11 Jan 2015, 6:29 pm)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]The Middlesbrough bound OK1's left Darlington and Middlesbrough 5 minutes in front of the X66 but it wasn't a success.

There is a fair amount of fare paying custom on the X1 now, or at least there has been when I've been on it.

Like you say Arriva has many connections in Darlington which didn't help the OK1 as it had none in Darlington.

The fact that the X1 is to be upgraded shortly would suggest it has become a solid commercial operation, and the addition of Tow Law from service 1/1B has allowed those customers to have a faster journey time into Darlington. The lack of connections at both ends (more noticeably in Darlington/Middlesbrough) wouldn't have helped the OK1 - and I imagine there will have been very little end to end traffic, beyond perhaps concessionary passes.

There's no denying that GNE have built the local 18 service into a solid little operation, and the X21 to Newcastle obviously has become popular along its route, especially offering quicker journey times between Durham & Newcastle than competing services from both operators. It is a shame that they don't see fit to invest in this service, beyond the recent addition of extra peak journeys. It will be interesting to see what effect the extra features offered on both service 6 (Bishop-Durham) and X2 (Durham-Chester-Newcastle) in the near future has on the loadings on the X21 though.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:36 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]The fact that the X1 is to be upgraded shortly would suggest it has become a solid commercial operation, and the addition of Tow Law from service 1/1B has allowed those customers to have a faster journey time into Darlington. The lack of connections at both ends (more noticeably in Darlington/Middlesbrough) wouldn't have helped the OK1 - and I imagine there will have been very little end to end traffic, beyond perhaps concessionary passes.

There's no denying that GNE have built the local 18 service into a solid little operation, and the X21 to Newcastle obviously has become popular along its route, especially offering quicker journey times between Durham & Newcastle than competing services from both operators. It is a shame that they don't see fit to invest in this service, beyond the recent addition of extra peak journeys. It will be interesting to see what effect the extra features offered on both service 6 (Bishop-Durham) and X2 (Durham-Chester-Newcastle) in the near future has on the loadings on the X21 though.

Did you read this post? My guess is that Arriva's upgrades won't harm the X21 too much...

Until Arriva offer more competitive fares and later journeys, I don't think power sockets and Wi-Fi will attract too many passengers away from the X21. 

(11 Jan 2015, 6:33 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]See, I'd suggest otherwise.

I don't profess to have been a regular traveller on the OK1, but whenever I used/photographed it, it had a relatively full bus consisting of OAPs and the odd fare-paying passenger who was going all the way back to Bishop Auckland (few and far between).

The X66 had the upper-hand with the Darlington - Middlesbrough stretch because it was much more frequent than the hourly OK1, and again, onward connections at both ends attracted more fare-paying customers.

The OK1 between Darlington and Middlesbrough passengers numbers were varied in my experience of it, some journeys had a good few OAPS and maybe the odd fare paying passenger and other journeys had very little.

The other edge the X66 had over the OK1 is that it has more stops down North Road, Harrowgate Hill and Whinbush.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:36 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I don't think this provides any justice to the point you're making though. Let me turn the question around and let you answer it - why are these new buses coming now, and not when the OK1 was operational?

You know as well as I do that a business case has to be built for investment into a service. A brand new service launched in Feb 2012 in response to a competitive move by another operator would never justify brand new vehicles straight away. The fact that it has grown from nothing into a solid commercial operation justifying investment in just 2 years from its inception would suggest that it has done very well. Of course it had to be launched with half decent stock, which is why 4 Pulsars were sourced and not something of a lower value...

(11 Jan 2015, 6:36 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I don't think this provides any justice to the point you're making though. Let me turn the question around and let you answer it - why are these new buses coming now, and not when the OK1 was operational?

Well, it does - the X1 has changed since the OK1 died a death. The reorganisation that has benefited it and increased its standing as the premium service from the Wear Valley into Darlington happened in October 2013 - after the OK1 was withdrawn. Hence why the new buses are coming now - 3 years after the X1 started (by the time they arrive) - and not when the OK1 was operational. So, the commerical success the X1 made while the OK1 was operational has since been boosted to the point where it justifies investment in new stock as Scott said above.

(11 Jan 2015, 6:39 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Did you read this post? My guess is that Arriva's upgrades won't harm the X21 too much...

Until Arriva offer more competitive fares and later journeys, I don't think power sockets and Wi-Fi will attract too many passengers away from the X21. 

I did indeed, and I would hazard a guess that you'll be correct as end to end passengers are always going to go with a direct service, passengers between Bishop Auckland & Durham may think about switching though if a superior service is offered.
Of course for regular commuters, the service which offers the most flexibility (and more importantly, price) will always win.

It's interesting to find there is a £5 difference between similar offerings between the Wear Valley area & Newcastle though, with the weekly Pronto saver priced at £22.50 as opposed to Arriva's offering at £17.40. GNE will always win the battle between Durham & Newcastle based on frequency alone, never mind the numerous connections available such as Metrocentre's regular shuttle buses. However the prices are fairly competitive with the Arriva weekly at £17.40 and GNE's Angel saver just £17.00. The connections required at each end of the region would depend on which one the passengers would purchase I would suggest as nobody (or not many) would realistically just travel from Durham Bus Station to Eldon Square and back each day.

Couple of things from my journey home today:
7532, to my surprise, flew up hills and kept to time for pretty much all of the route, having to stop and wait a couple of times. It was also very warm. Brilliant bus.

One thing though, for sections of the route the WiFi was either incredibly slow, or it just wouldn't connect (to the Internet) at all. Now I don't know an awful lot about how bus WiFi works, but is there anything Arriva can do to improve the connection in the rural areas, or would it be down to the mobile phone companies improving their coverage (WiFi on buses uses mobile networks doesn't it?) 

(11 Jan 2015, 6:41 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]You know as well as I do that a business case has to be built for investment into a service. A brand new service launched in Feb 2012 in response to a competitive move by another operator would never justify brand new vehicles straight away. The fact that it has grown from nothing into a solid commercial operation justifying investment in just 2 years from its inception would suggest that it has done very well. Of course it had to be launched with half decent stock, which is why 4 Pulsars were sourced and not something of a lower value...

(11 Jan 2015, 6:42 pm)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]Well, it does - the X1 has changed since the OK1 died a death. The reorganisation that has benefited it and increased its standing as the premium service from the Wear Valley into Darlington happened in October 2013 - after the OK1 was withdrawn. Hence why the new buses are coming now - 3 years after the X1 started (by the time they arrive) - and not when the OK1 was operational. So, the commerical success the X1 made while the OK1 was operational has since been boosted to the point where it justifies investment in new stock as Scott said above.

It goes without saying that a brand new service which was designed to compete with another operator's similar offering would not be able to justify brand new vehicles immediately, and I certainly wasn't suggesting that this should have been the case, either. There's no denying that a business case has to be built to justify the capital expenditure needed to form the investment into a bus service, but it cannot be argued that the business case to provide new buses on the X1 service has been made following the withdrawal of the OK1 service.

The OK1 was operational from January 2012 until August 2013, and Arriva's competing service was operational from February 2012 onwards. During its time, the OK1 did attract some customers away from Arriva's competing services, however few in number they were (especially towards the end - leading to the OK1's withdrawal), with these customers primarily being those who were able to purchase a Go North East day ticket at the Bishop Auckland end, or those who wanted a direct service to Middlesbrough.

The problem with competing services is that neither do as well as they could have done, whilst the other service is still operational. If the X1 was so much of a commercial success whilst the OK1 was operational, Arriva could have justified upgrading the X1 service to newer stock. This did not happen. In my eyes, the commercial success of the X1 is primarily due to the fact that there is no longer another service which competes, which has allowed Arriva to re-organise their network to provide a better service. 

(11 Jan 2015, 6:39 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Did you read this post? My guess is that Arriva's upgrades won't harm the X21 too much...

Until Arriva offer more competitive fares and later journeys, I don't think power sockets and Wi-Fi will attract too many passengers away from the X21. 

Doesn't that sort of contradict what you said in this post?

The Tyne Valley situation followed a couple of years of poor (unreliable) service from Arriva.

The combination of a through-route to/from Carlisle (along the non-dual-carriageway section of the A69) means that delays are inevitable, though unreliable vehicles compounded the problems.

Losing the Hexham depot (to GNE) means that breakdowns have to be serviced from either end (increasing delays).

The route was ripe for competition and GNE have risen to the challenge.

The X84 (which serves the villages) frequently overtakes the ANE 85 before Corbridge despite running through Wylam, Ovingham and Ovington (though not Horsley), whilst the X85 (which runs midway between the X84/685 times) does the journey faster than the ANE 85/685 (by cutting out Throckley). 

GNE has the option (vehicles permitting) of slotting-in a bus should there be delays arriving in Hexham from Newcastle.

Overall it's a win-win situation for GNE, and it remains to be seen how long ANE sustain the route (which they share with SNE).

Of course people wanting to travel to and from West of Hexham have no choice.
The train frequency from/to Haydon Bridge is two-hourly - unless you travel to Haltwhistle first!