Problematic Bus Situations
Problematic Bus Situations
Can anyone think of any issues at all with commerical operators or even contracted services in terms of routing or timetabling that has caused public uproar. I am looking into trying consultancy and advisory work and would really appriecate some good information.
(18 Dec 2020, 7:31 pm)ASX_Terranova Can anyone think of any issues at all with commerical operators or even contracted services in terms of routing or timetabling that has caused public uproar. I am looking into trying consultancy and advisory work and would really appriecate some good information.
(18 Dec 2020, 7:31 pm)ASX_Terranova Can anyone think of any issues at all with commerical operators or even contracted services in terms of routing or timetabling that has caused public uproar. I am looking into trying consultancy and advisory work and would really appriecate some good information.
(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.Solutions:
There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))
- Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
- Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
- Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
- GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
- GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
- GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
- GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
- GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
- GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes
(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.Solutions:
There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))
- Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
- Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
- Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
- GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
- GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
- GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
- GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
- GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
- GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes
(19 Dec 2020, 9:39 am)ASX_Terranova Solutions:
1. Return of 44.
2. Return of 810/811.
3. Crowdfunding for a New Bus Company Run by A forum member in this area.
4. X12 (Newcastle - Non-Stop - Blaydon - Ryton - Crawcrook - Prudhoe (Front Street, Rail Staion & Highfield Estate)
5. Extend 37 to Sunderland via Silksworth (Attachment 2)
6. Return of Service 721.
7. Return of Services 526 or 544 (Might try and look into these more).
8. Bring Back Services 88 & 531 (Both Hourly)
9. Return of Service 137 (See Attachment 1).
(19 Dec 2020, 9:39 am)ASX_Terranova Solutions:
1. Return of 44.
2. Return of 810/811.
3. Crowdfunding for a New Bus Company Run by A forum member in this area.
4. X12 (Newcastle - Non-Stop - Blaydon - Ryton - Crawcrook - Prudhoe (Front Street, Rail Staion & Highfield Estate)
5. Extend 37 to Sunderland via Silksworth (Attachment 2)
6. Return of Service 721.
7. Return of Services 526 or 544 (Might try and look into these more).
8. Bring Back Services 88 & 531 (Both Hourly)
9. Return of Service 137 (See Attachment 1).
(19 Dec 2020, 11:08 am)Andreos1 Some interesting thoughts/ideas there.
Whilst I think reinstating or extending services could be an option, I do think the wider network needs looking at for some of them to work.
As an example, I was aware of an organisation set up a few years back which was often mentioned on here.
The Fencehouses Popular Front (FPF), were an action group set up by disgruntled residents of Fencehouses. There were all sorts of schemes planned and plotted to disrupt services across the region.
Residents had been left with the poor 71 service, which only offered limited options compared to the 21A, 160, 163, 177 and 178 which it 'replaced'.
Similarly, the X94 and X3/X4 offered a lot more than the then the M1 which took its place.
Whilst the 4 and its increase in frequency is appreciated, it still doesn't allow residents of a wide area direct routes to Newcastle or Gateshead and therefore both journey times and fares are a lot greater than they once were.
Reinstating a service from/via Fencehouses to Newcastle or Gateshead would conflict with the 21 or X1, depending which route it took. Even though it would be popular and could see the FPF cease its attacks.
A while back, I brought probability in to the forum and questioned whether or not a shared corridor and the ratio of services along the route had any impact on the success or longevity of some routes. The two corridors I brought up at the time were Newcastle Road and Ryhope/Stockton Road. I predicted the likes of the infrequent X3 and 238 would go and the more frequent services would last.
Using Eldon Square - Harlow Green as an example: Per hour there are - 6x 21, 2x X21, 2x 25 and 2x X12.
Ratio/probability will be 6:2:2:2. If you're waiting for the first bus to rock up, chances are it will be the 21. The other buses are an option if there's no 21 at the stand. But the probability of that happening is very low.
Stick in a twice hourly 21A in to the mix and there's still more of chance of boarding a 21 to Harlow Green than any of the other individual services.
That's forgetting any marketing/route branding and brand or operator preference.
If you look at your 721 example, you're potentially going to see the same pattern on Old Durham Road and Durham Road.
Whilst there will be punters needing to get to/from the QE from various parts Birtley, I don't think that will be enough to sustain the service.
Between Chester and Birtley the ratio is 6:2:2:1 (21, X21, X12 and X22). Add the 721 in to the picture and you've got 6:2:2:1:1. The 21 is in all probability going to sweep the passengers up travelling between the two points with both options.
It will be a similar pattern between Newcastle/Gateshead and the QE or the QE and Wrekenton where the frequent X1 and 56 is the dominant force and you have the other local services such as the 57 and 58 dropping in and out of the mix.
(19 Dec 2020, 11:08 am)Andreos1 Some interesting thoughts/ideas there.
Whilst I think reinstating or extending services could be an option, I do think the wider network needs looking at for some of them to work.
As an example, I was aware of an organisation set up a few years back which was often mentioned on here.
The Fencehouses Popular Front (FPF), were an action group set up by disgruntled residents of Fencehouses. There were all sorts of schemes planned and plotted to disrupt services across the region.
Residents had been left with the poor 71 service, which only offered limited options compared to the 21A, 160, 163, 177 and 178 which it 'replaced'.
Similarly, the X94 and X3/X4 offered a lot more than the then the M1 which took its place.
Whilst the 4 and its increase in frequency is appreciated, it still doesn't allow residents of a wide area direct routes to Newcastle or Gateshead and therefore both journey times and fares are a lot greater than they once were.
Reinstating a service from/via Fencehouses to Newcastle or Gateshead would conflict with the 21 or X1, depending which route it took. Even though it would be popular and could see the FPF cease its attacks.
A while back, I brought probability in to the forum and questioned whether or not a shared corridor and the ratio of services along the route had any impact on the success or longevity of some routes. The two corridors I brought up at the time were Newcastle Road and Ryhope/Stockton Road. I predicted the likes of the infrequent X3 and 238 would go and the more frequent services would last.
Using Eldon Square - Harlow Green as an example: Per hour there are - 6x 21, 2x X21, 2x 25 and 2x X12.
Ratio/probability will be 6:2:2:2. If you're waiting for the first bus to rock up, chances are it will be the 21. The other buses are an option if there's no 21 at the stand. But the probability of that happening is very low.
Stick in a twice hourly 21A in to the mix and there's still more of chance of boarding a 21 to Harlow Green than any of the other individual services.
That's forgetting any marketing/route branding and brand or operator preference.
If you look at your 721 example, you're potentially going to see the same pattern on Old Durham Road and Durham Road.
Whilst there will be punters needing to get to/from the QE from various parts Birtley, I don't think that will be enough to sustain the service.
Between Chester and Birtley the ratio is 6:2:2:1 (21, X21, X12 and X22). Add the 721 in to the picture and you've got 6:2:2:1:1. The 21 is in all probability going to sweep the passengers up travelling between the two points with both options.
It will be a similar pattern between Newcastle/Gateshead and the QE or the QE and Wrekenton where the frequent X1 and 56 is the dominant force and you have the other local services such as the 57 and 58 dropping in and out of the mix.
(19 Dec 2020, 12:00 pm)Storx Surely the better option would be to just extend some of the short 21's instead, there's 6 of them you could do something with rather than sticking another service on top of them. (There's 8 21's btw not 6 (every 7.5 mins)).
For the North Tyneside Hospital from S. Valley restoring the 57 to North Shields would be the easiest option and the QE to Birtley restoring the 25 along there. The bottom half already has an hourly service btw with the 28 it's Portobello etc where the complaints are coming from.
(19 Dec 2020, 12:00 pm)Storx Surely the better option would be to just extend some of the short 21's instead, there's 6 of them you could do something with rather than sticking another service on top of them. (There's 8 21's btw not 6 (every 7.5 mins)).
For the North Tyneside Hospital from S. Valley restoring the 57 to North Shields would be the easiest option and the QE to Birtley restoring the 25 along there. The bottom half already has an hourly service btw with the 28 it's Portobello etc where the complaints are coming from.
(19 Dec 2020, 2:22 pm)ASX_Terranova Can anyone on the forum back up the issues in South TynesideI'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 2:22 pm)ASX_Terranova Can anyone on the forum back up the issues in South TynesideI'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 4:41 pm)Storx Surely the biggest problem is that there's too much competition and people are using the Metro instead which is much quicker than an alternative bus so there's not much left to go around and sharing the small share between 2 operators there's just nothing there to make money bar the obvious routes (E1, E2, E6, 20, 27, 35, 50) which bridge the gaps in the Metro not to mention that there is a river in between with very very little service crossing it.Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it. Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
(19 Dec 2020, 4:41 pm)Storx Surely the biggest problem is that there's too much competition and people are using the Metro instead which is much quicker than an alternative bus so there's not much left to go around and sharing the small share between 2 operators there's just nothing there to make money bar the obvious routes (E1, E2, E6, 20, 27, 35, 50) which bridge the gaps in the Metro not to mention that there is a river in between with very very little service crossing it.Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it. Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers. No passengers and no competition. Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether
(19 Dec 2020, 4:55 pm)ifm001 Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it. Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
The issue is the core services of 3, 4, 7, 8, 17, and 18 are midibus operated every 10 mins (pre covid) . SNE operate via contract to Nexus into Jarrow but not Hebburn. If the core services were reduced to 20 mins and operated by double decker (not sure on fuel efficie cy vs vehicle or anything) that would release prob 6 to 10 drivers amd vehicleswhich would enable an introduction of other new services which could extend into the areas that are neglected by GNE. But again if the passengers arent there for GNE what's to say they would be there for SNE. Personally I believe SNE should trial a service commercially into Jarrow and Hebburn and see if there is any potential.
(19 Dec 2020, 4:55 pm)ifm001 Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it. Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
The issue is the core services of 3, 4, 7, 8, 17, and 18 are midibus operated every 10 mins (pre covid) . SNE operate via contract to Nexus into Jarrow but not Hebburn. If the core services were reduced to 20 mins and operated by double decker (not sure on fuel efficie cy vs vehicle or anything) that would release prob 6 to 10 drivers amd vehicleswhich would enable an introduction of other new services which could extend into the areas that are neglected by GNE. But again if the passengers arent there for GNE what's to say they would be there for SNE. Personally I believe SNE should trial a service commercially into Jarrow and Hebburn and see if there is any potential.
(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.
The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.
To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.
(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.
The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.
To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.
(19 Dec 2020, 8:55 pm)deanmachine Pretty sure you can order a network one online, you can buy them on the 3 major bus operators apps.
(19 Dec 2020, 8:55 pm)deanmachine Pretty sure you can order a network one online, you can buy them on the 3 major bus operators apps.
Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)
The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point
On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status
(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.
The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.
To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.
(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.
The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.
To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.
(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)
The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point
On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status
(20 Dec 2020, 12:08 am)Andreos1 I think the key is to finding where the cars are heading to. Not just in the morning and evening peaks, but beyond that.
The Port of Tyne is a huge employer for residents of South Tyneside, as is the likes of Nissan.
For someone living in Whiteleas or Biddick Hall and on a shift pattern, is there any reliable public transport provision which would cover them to Tyne Dock or Nissan? Of course not.
Never mind two huge residential areas, you can't even do those journeys from the likes of Chichester or Boldon Colliery and they're not far from either of those two key employment sites.
It's very similar for someone living in Marsden and working somewhere in Newcastle, such as the Business Park.
Do you faff on getting a bus in to Shields and subsequently being at the whim of the Metro and the 22 or 12 (never mind any confusion of the various ticketing options or validity)?
Do you go around the world on an X34 and look for a connection at the other end or do you drive in?
Ticketing, pricing, the existing network and convenience.
That's where the problem lies imo.
The passengers are there, it's just the operators don't know what to do with them. Even though they think they do.
Except they don't - which is backed up with the ever regular decline in passenger numbers.
)
(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)
The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point
On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status
(20 Dec 2020, 12:08 am)Andreos1 I think the key is to finding where the cars are heading to. Not just in the morning and evening peaks, but beyond that.
The Port of Tyne is a huge employer for residents of South Tyneside, as is the likes of Nissan.
For someone living in Whiteleas or Biddick Hall and on a shift pattern, is there any reliable public transport provision which would cover them to Tyne Dock or Nissan? Of course not.
Never mind two huge residential areas, you can't even do those journeys from the likes of Chichester or Boldon Colliery and they're not far from either of those two key employment sites.
It's very similar for someone living in Marsden and working somewhere in Newcastle, such as the Business Park.
Do you faff on getting a bus in to Shields and subsequently being at the whim of the Metro and the 22 or 12 (never mind any confusion of the various ticketing options or validity)?
Do you go around the world on an X34 and look for a connection at the other end or do you drive in?
Ticketing, pricing, the existing network and convenience.
That's where the problem lies imo.
The passengers are there, it's just the operators don't know what to do with them. Even though they think they do.
Except they don't - which is backed up with the ever regular decline in passenger numbers.
)
(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.Had the chance to replace this, we tried to tick as many boxes as we could within the limits of one driver and bus. The majority of our regular passengers are people from Stokesley & Great Ayton travelling to Guisborough for shopping, we take a few school kids from Guisborough to Stokesley School as well. We tried to open up the Guisborough to Saltburn market too, it's quiet at present but looked promising in September, hopefully in the summer it will come back - we get a few from Stokesley to Saltburn and vice versa too but it is pretty much two separate markets.
Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes
There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))
Forum Moderator | Let us know if you have any issues
Service Manager, Coatham Connect
(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.Had the chance to replace this, we tried to tick as many boxes as we could within the limits of one driver and bus. The majority of our regular passengers are people from Stokesley & Great Ayton travelling to Guisborough for shopping, we take a few school kids from Guisborough to Stokesley School as well. We tried to open up the Guisborough to Saltburn market too, it's quiet at present but looked promising in September, hopefully in the summer it will come back - we get a few from Stokesley to Saltburn and vice versa too but it is pretty much two separate markets.
Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes
There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))
Forum Moderator | Let us know if you have any issues
Service Manager, Coatham Connect
(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)
The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point
On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status
(20 Dec 2020, 12:54 am)Storx Yeah agreed with the new housing it's the same up this way. Gosforth Park being one where they pretty much isn't a bus service at all to the place, the same as the new housing estates they're building in Cramlington.
Wrote a bit more on the commuter town below.
Yeah agreed there, it's almost as the network is stuck back in 1980 for me serving places that were popular back then but not so much nowadays with noticeable places being pretty much unserved. Shopping without a car must be an absolute nightmare for most people like talking about South Shields if you wanted an ASDA you'd probably want to go to the one at Boldon but you can't get there; some clothes shopping Silverlink or Washington (no service / v little to both). There's 10 buses to South Shields though or you can go to Sunderland either which isn't exactly much better. Sainsburys, Washington Galleries (can't get there). Buggar it I'll drive.
It's the same as Birtley, most people there will either shop at Team Valley or The Metro Centre but can you get to either of them, nope not without changes infact you can't get to really anywhere to the Metro Centre from the North or South bar the token X22 service.
Live in the West End want to go to the Metro Centre; that's a trip to Newcastle then back out. Speaking of that I was speaking to someone in the West End and they shopped at ASDA at Byker (which was like eh). But they said it's the only supermarket you can actually get to from the West Road / Elswick (bar Morrisons at Cowgate but it's small and has a limited range). Even known there's an ASDA at Metro Centre and Gosforth, Tesco Gateshead and Kingston Park, Morrisons Blaydon, M&S Kingston Park etc but none of them are accesible from there. Then they wonder why people drive.
Not to mention there's no bus service from the West End at all to Newcastle / Newburn Business Parks (an employment site), never mind struggling from South Shields.
(Tounge in cheek the 50 serves Nissan from most the places you said
(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)
The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point
On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status
(20 Dec 2020, 12:54 am)Storx Yeah agreed with the new housing it's the same up this way. Gosforth Park being one where they pretty much isn't a bus service at all to the place, the same as the new housing estates they're building in Cramlington.
Wrote a bit more on the commuter town below.
Yeah agreed there, it's almost as the network is stuck back in 1980 for me serving places that were popular back then but not so much nowadays with noticeable places being pretty much unserved. Shopping without a car must be an absolute nightmare for most people like talking about South Shields if you wanted an ASDA you'd probably want to go to the one at Boldon but you can't get there; some clothes shopping Silverlink or Washington (no service / v little to both). There's 10 buses to South Shields though or you can go to Sunderland either which isn't exactly much better. Sainsburys, Washington Galleries (can't get there). Buggar it I'll drive.
It's the same as Birtley, most people there will either shop at Team Valley or The Metro Centre but can you get to either of them, nope not without changes infact you can't get to really anywhere to the Metro Centre from the North or South bar the token X22 service.
Live in the West End want to go to the Metro Centre; that's a trip to Newcastle then back out. Speaking of that I was speaking to someone in the West End and they shopped at ASDA at Byker (which was like eh). But they said it's the only supermarket you can actually get to from the West Road / Elswick (bar Morrisons at Cowgate but it's small and has a limited range). Even known there's an ASDA at Metro Centre and Gosforth, Tesco Gateshead and Kingston Park, Morrisons Blaydon, M&S Kingston Park etc but none of them are accesible from there. Then they wonder why people drive.
Not to mention there's no bus service from the West End at all to Newcastle / Newburn Business Parks (an employment site), never mind struggling from South Shields.
(Tounge in cheek the 50 serves Nissan from most the places you said
(20 Dec 2020, 11:07 am)Andreos1 I'm still amazed that developers are designing estates for car users, particularly as there are all sorts of measures in place for councils to implement specific rules and regs in relation to public transport.
Similarly, I'm flabbergasted that bus operators don't look to encourage that switch in those areas.
The new housing in Birtley has the 81/82 coming through on a one-way loop, but at the same time residents have seen the 25 (which skirts the estate) adapt its route and make getting in to Newcastle less attractive.
(20 Dec 2020, 11:07 am)Andreos1 I'm still amazed that developers are designing estates for car users, particularly as there are all sorts of measures in place for councils to implement specific rules and regs in relation to public transport.
Similarly, I'm flabbergasted that bus operators don't look to encourage that switch in those areas.
The new housing in Birtley has the 81/82 coming through on a one-way loop, but at the same time residents have seen the 25 (which skirts the estate) adapt its route and make getting in to Newcastle less attractive.
