(22 Aug 2022, 3:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Of course, assuming the ones available aren't knackered.  I would be amazed however if SNE went to the expense of converting some more life expired deckers to open top for the PVR of 1 on the 19 plus whatever random offering on the Es.  The only reason we have the open toppers is because they became spare on the demise of CSS.  They tried Seasider and abandoned it (who knows if that might have grown were it not for Covid) and now are basically just making use of the otherwise dead resource.

(22 Aug 2022, 7:18 pm)toward6931 wrote no i wasn't suggesting to convert these vehicles yet, what I was suggesting was that if it is worth putting decker's on those services, bearing in mind how unpredictable the weather has been and the age of the open toppers, could it be worth if the Cumbria decker's aren't knackered acquiring them to use as spare vehicles so that if the open toppers do have a serious break down there is a vehicle of similar capacity to cover it.

(22 Aug 2022, 7:24 pm)F114TML wrote I feel like I'm missing something - if one breaks down what's wrong with an E400? Why must it be another ALX? The Eco routes run along the coast - why wouldn't you run open toppers on it in summer, even if existing pax numbers didn't justify it? It's an easy (and probably cheap) way of going "ooh look at our routes" while maybe increasing passenger numbers a bit.

(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 wrote no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.

you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,

in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.

I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)

(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 wrote no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.

you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,

in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.

I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)

(22 Aug 2022, 10:05 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Special events aside, I'm not convinced there is a vehicle shortage.  Sunderland are still sat on a load of spares since the PVR reduction there.  Things are always going to be tight when large numbers are off for a few days/weeks on events work but they aren't going to fund an increased spares % just for that.  The issues with the MAN 14.240s is seemingly being addressed by acquiring Darts, which is likely to be the route they continue down as it will be far more economical running an 06 plate dart than an 06 plate decker.  When we talk about vehicles getting pulled out of the paintshop half done, let's remember that was one vehicle, which had incompletely applied promotional livery - not a regular occurrence and arguably with better planning they shouldn't have been trying to do it when a load of the fleet were off to Brum...

(24 Aug 2022, 12:21 am)col87 wrote Would disagree Hartlepool has had a shortage for years now not helped by having an unreliable fleet with buses frequently having to be borrowed from Stockton or Sunderland with 3 Hartlepool having 3 buses permanently off the road since December and at least one has now been scrapped. While the Darts have helped slightly they is a shortage of buses at Hartlepool with not many spares.   The fact Stockton themselves have now had to borrow buses from Newcastle would suggest that they is a shortage.

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39666 has not been in use for over a week so don’t know if it been withdrawn but alongside 34605 that’s now another  2 buses off the road so something is going to need to happen especially with rumours that 2 - 3 others at Hartlepool could be getting withdrawn as well.

(24 Aug 2022, 1:20 am)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Across SNE there is no vehicle shortage.  The Newcastle buses at Stockton are largely covering for the E200MMCs which were at the Games.  This isn't a chronic shortage, the Commonwealth Games is a once in however many years special event.  They are not going to hold an inflated fleet in all divisions that send buses to the likes of this, just in case another special event comes along...particularly when they seem to have managed perfectly well with temp national cascades to cover.

39666 has been withdrawn but 36092/93 have been transferred in...
The other MANs which have been withdrawn have been replaced by Darts.
The issue with Hartlepool is it's a tiny fleet/PVR therefore even with a standard spares percentage in terms of number of buses it is very low.  What probably needs to happen is for Hartlepool depot to close and whatever local services remain beyond the 36 to run from Stockton, to get economies of scale on fleet spares etc.

(24 Aug 2022, 12:45 pm)wibblejunior wrote I think Stagecoach London are starting to cascade the LX59 batch of E200s to other fleets, perhaps some of those may end up transferring over here?

(24 Aug 2022, 12:45 pm)wibblejunior wrote I think Stagecoach London are starting to cascade the LX59 batch of E200s to other fleets, perhaps some of those may end up transferring over here?

(24 Aug 2022, 1:26 pm)toward6931 wrote are they a shorter length than the E200s up here? i remember some of the 56 examples i think were really short, i think one is at bedford now. and i take it they will have the second door removed and seating placed there?

yes as i thought 36302 is an example of what i mean

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aswans1234567/52155423014/

(24 Aug 2022, 4:05 pm)col87 wrote Hartlepool especially needs investment. It’s fine bringing 4 darts up from Yorkshire but if one has been immediately scrapped another one has not been used due to problems and only 2 have actually been used in regular service while 4 buses have been withdrawn then it really don’t help much.  The fact is since Stagecoach took over Hartlepool Transport it’s gone from a fully functional depot doing everything to the bare bones with services completely cut down.  Hartlepool needs a depot or else it’s just going to lead to more service cuts in which case they might just be better off selling to Go North east or Arriva.  They is a very simple solution though.

Move all remaining Darts to Hartlepool with some E200 going elsewhere as replacements.

Some of  the Alx300 move to Hartlepool from Newcastle/ Stockton to see off most of the remaining Manviros. 

Service 1 and 36 to be joint operated between Hartlepool and Stockton freeing up buses and drivers  from Stockton depot.  It means Hartlepool get some slightly better buses Stockton get some free drivers for other routes so win win.

(24 Aug 2022, 4:54 pm)toward6931 wrote yes would make sense that darts go to hartlepool, so that's the 2 (correct me if I'm wrong)at Sunderland swapped for 2 E200s, even if they are terrible Sunderland allegedly has a healthy spare vehicle ratio, however many at south shields swapped 1 for 1.

ideally services 1 and 36 as you suggest get jointly operated like the 62/63 in Newcastle. maybe 2/3 ALX 300from Stockton go to hartlepool in return for E200.

Hopefully either an investment of maybe 10-20 new short wheelbase MMCs per year for the next 3 years should be made which I would suggest for the CAZ coming split between Newcastle and Sunderland the first year, followed by Stockton and hartlepool the second year and then Newcastle and Sunderland the third year. thereby allowing the same amount of troublesome buses to be scrapped with hartlepool getting the 1st pick of any cascade until the problem has been sorted.

or as sadly is probably the most likely outcome is that whatever cascades are made through the group hartlepool tries to grab and see what it can use.

(24 Aug 2022, 4:05 pm)col87 wrote Hartlepool especially needs investment. It’s fine bringing 4 darts up from Yorkshire but if one has been immediately scrapped another one has not been used due to problems and only 2 have actually been used in regular service while 4 buses have been withdrawn then it really don’t help much.  The fact is since Stagecoach took over Hartlepool Transport it’s gone from a fully functional depot doing everything to the bare bones with services completely cut down.  Hartlepool needs a depot or else it’s just going to lead to more service cuts in which case they might just be better off selling to Go North east or Arriva.  They is a very simple solution though.

Move all remaining Darts to Hartlepool with some E200 going elsewhere as replacements.

Some of  the Alx300 move to Hartlepool from Newcastle/ Stockton to see off most of the remaining Manviros. 

Service 1 and 36 to be joint operated between Hartlepool and Stockton freeing up buses and drivers  from Stockton depot.  It means Hartlepool get some slightly better buses Stockton get some free drivers for other routes so win win.

(24 Aug 2022, 5:45 pm)Storx wrote I don't want to be a doom and gloomer here but remember Stagecoach South Shields / Sunderland and Stagecoach Teesside / Hartlepool haven't had any cuts in relationship to the end of the Covid bailouts yet.

There will be cuts at both, the 18 and 30 were definitely on the chopping block at Sunderland / South Shields before the extension came in last minute. Hartlepool has always been a weak depot so wouldn't be surprised to see a few cuts there aswell. Isn't there a few hourly services which only operate 9am - 5pm, never the sort of services that will be money makers.

Once they eventually come in, I wouldn't be surprised to see there's enough to get rid of the MAN's.

(24 Aug 2022, 5:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote 4 MANs withdrawn, 2 Darts plus 2 E200 (36092/93) arrived = no worse off???

What benefit is there to losing E200s which are some of Hartlepool's newest vehicles to other depots, to gain older Darts?

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I've said previosuly but wouldn't necessarily expect mega cuts at Sunderland as they basically implemented the frequency reductions that were already planned - plus their main services generally appear to be doing pretty well in terms of loadings.  The 18 presumably will be secured if/when they finally pull the plug, but it's only 2 vehicles anyway (of which one is needed for scholars at either end of the day) so not a great release of vehicles there.  In Sunderland, the 8 would be the other potential for a frequency cut maybe?

(24 Aug 2022, 5:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I've said previosuly but wouldn't necessarily expect mega cuts at Sunderland as they basically implemented the frequency reductions that were already planned - plus their main services generally appear to be doing pretty well in terms of loadings.  The 18 presumably will be secured if/when they finally pull the plug, but it's only 2 vehicles anyway (of which one is needed for scholars at either end of the day) so not a great release of vehicles there.  In Sunderland, the 8 would be the other potential for a frequency cut maybe?

(24 Aug 2022, 6:07 pm)Michael wrote I'm really surprised its still going, service was wreaked when the council decided to close the Queen Alexandrea Bridge for work (which was needed) and terminate them at each end of the bridge - and when it opened the service never recovered, even after the route change to go Via Pennywell etc, it still runs empty.

Wonder if they would merge the route with another route - maybe you could change the 20 back to its old route in Pennywell... the route is pretty much covered with other routes:


E's -  Seaburn
16 - Grindon
10/11 - Pallion
3/4/12/13/16 - Southwick
3/13 - Gilly Law


Its got to be running a massive loss?, it carries fresh air during the day and on school days, its a double decker.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:36 pm)Unber43 wrote I wonder if the 20 cancellation might increase passenger numbers on the 39A/39B if it does its coming at a bad time

(24 Aug 2022, 6:09 pm)Storx wrote Aye agreed, only little things I think might happen is the 3/4 being dropped from every 12 minutes to every 15 minutes or the 20 being dropped to every 12 minutes etc. Little changes that won't really impact people tbh but drop the PVR a bit.

It's Hartlepool and South Shields I have a feeling might get clattered. Both are low cost units which means to me don't make any money and that was before Covid not to mention Stagecoach conveniently moving the E's which are decent routes to Sunderland randomly.

Hartlepool I wouldn't be surprised to see desperate changes like which tax payers will no doubt have to fund alternatives:
1 - Dropped South of Seaton Carew
3/3A - Dropped altogether
6/7 - 6 withdrawn, 7 route extended to the South Fens via the 6 route and evening extension
36 - Extended to replace the top half of the 6

The place has been a basket case for years hence the lack of investment, low cost units etc.

(24 Aug 2022, 7:29 pm)col87 wrote Clearly you have no connection to Hartlepool then as you just making everything even worse.  They nit going to make cuts to the 6/7 as they the two most profitable services in the town always usually quite busy even out of peak time.  The 1 I don’t see getting cut either for the same reason.  What might happen though is this.   
1 Middlesbrough service dropped to hourly. Don’t forget  if it gets cut completely that’s no service at all for Haverton Hill and Port Clarence so they will still be a service there. Then every 15 minutes to Seaton Carew.

3/3A. Works well enough as it is as usually gets enough passengers to continue. Maybe could reduce Bishop Cuthbert to hourly but it works as it is.  

6/7 No changes.  They tried going down to every 15 minutes during the emergency Timetables it ended up been a farce with a lot of complaints and people not having a service for nearly half an hour due to late running and breakdowns. I don’t see them trying again.  

36.  Your having a laugh. It did originally do the 6 route it was changed to the Marina for a reason due to it been easier. The same reason the Marina section was cut off was down to it been able to make up time if it running late by looping the Town Centre they no way it’s going to go back to doing the 6 route.   If anything merging the 36 and 37 will be an improvement will save a bus or two and have the added bonus of a direct service between Hartlepool and North Tees Hospital.  
Other than  a couple of changes in 2017 then a few minor tweaks in 2018 the Hartlepool network for the most part has been stable since 2010 what’s needed is a few extra services and better buses not closing the depot and having buses that are no good.  
Up until everything got decided at Sunderland Hartlepool actually worked fine it’s only since the creation of Stagecoach North East that Hartlepool started to get worse when it was just under Cleveland Transit it worked a lot better. It’s the management what’s actually ran the depot down to cut costs.

(24 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm)Storx wrote The thing is though they could make changes which could streamline things but keep services mostly the same without duplicating services.

Just to pick the 6/7/36/37/38

You could do

36: Clavering to Owton Manor, Every 20 Minutes or Middlesbrough, Every 20 Minutes - Combined Fens to Clavering, Every 10 Minutes
37: Every 20/40 Minutes
38: Every Hour
36/37/38: Every 10 Minutes

6: Withdrawn
7: Every 10 Minutes

Hartlepool has it's two 10 minute services still without the duplicating 6/36.

Bar a small estate in Norton and the awkward 20/40 at the end of the 37, there's still a 20 minute service on the 37/38 and the combined 10 minute service between Norton and Middlesbrough (vs 7.5 now).

Those buses being pulled off the 36/38 will be used to improve what was the 6 with newer buses from Stockton with a suitable layover at Owton Manor so they're not delayed so Hartlepool wins aswell.

(25 Aug 2022, 1:21 am)glen wrote Way can't stagecoach north east pay standhard buses to replace all alx man buses if want get rid off them if can't new buses then.