(20 Apr 2020, 3:44 pm)Ambassador wrote I imagine we'll see that happen for most businesses, however GNE are classed as keyworkers so although they have a lot of people working from home they can (with proper social distancing) have them in the office as needed as they are carrying out essential support for keyworkers.Ha! Yes! Husband has been helping a new graduate starter get going, remotely, today. Had fun trying to keep Littlun out of the way while he was interviewing, the other week. He can see them doing a mix of office based and remote stuff, once this is all over. Sometimes they have to work with specific hardware, or at least familiarise themselves with it and some of the work they do needs particularly stringent security which can't be achieved in someone's dining room but a fair bit of his work doesn't need to be office based.
It will be the case for a long time where only frontline workers are public facing or office based.
Welcome to the new normal!
(20 Apr 2020, 3:32 pm)Ambassador wrote The next big issue is post lockdown.
Even with a gradual return the reality is many of us won't see the inside of our offices potentially until next year. The likes of Zoom and Microsoft Teams have opened the eyes of even the most hardened IT critic. Equally some businesses who were already struggling simply won't survive. Then there's a confidence issue of passengers themselves (how many parents - where they can - will now drive little Jimmy and Jane to school instead of risking their little darlings on a bus?)
This of course means the same passengers numbers won't be there and I think Martijn G and the Team at GNE are very aware of that but it's a huge challenge for them and even before COVID-19 it was already a big ask. Sellable assets aren't assets if you're competitors are equally in the same position which rules out an immediate cash flow solution.
It's a balancing act between enticing passengers back and paying your costs and it's going to be like that across most of business, however I think for public transport (buses in particular) it will be a much much bigger challenge
(20 Apr 2020, 3:57 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I was thinking purely financially, while there is an advantage to having customer service 'in house', if they can get rid of a whole property and have them work from home instead, that's got to save an awful lot of money!
Like you say, a lot of businesses have opened their eyes to homeworking, and if you can save money by doing it permanently, why wouldn't you?
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(20 Apr 2020, 5:37 pm)mb134 wrote Regarding passenger numbers at the other side of this, I'm not overly sure there will be a dramatic immediate change.
On the first day back in "normality" folk will want to be getting out and about, going to the pub for drinks, going to town with friends etc - a bus companies dream. For ANE, I imagine there will be a number of people wanting trips up and down the coast to Seahouses/Whitby/Scarborough. Football will return, another huge day for bus companies in and out of Newcastle. Workers for restaurants, bars etc will all return to work, as will those working in shops and the like.
Office workers may well carry on working from home, but honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see them all back in. All of the office workers I know have been saying that productivity has dropped through the floor since this all started. Similarly, universities and schools will all be back. Speaking as someone who's just sat their first honours exam, the past 3 weeks have been absolute hell not having a library available, so students will return to using buses in the same volume as they were before.
More specifically looking at pricing - people who don't have to use the bus for short trips won't. If its a 5 minute walk to the stop, with the bus taking 10 minutes to the next town, and people have access to a car then they'll drive it 99.9% of the time. Where you're far more likely to convince "leisure passengers" onto the bus is into the city centre, where it's more likely that they'll be going for a few hours, maybe a few drinks. To these passengers, pricing, frequency and atmosphere will be most important in getting them to return. Couples or groups of friends are hardly likely to be requiring tables for their afternoon/night out in town, but they will appreciate comfortable seating and a pleasant ambience. The actual design of the bus helps a lot here, personally I think ADL have got it spot on with windows etc whereas the shallower Wright windows make the bus feel smaller and less airy.
(21 Apr 2020, 1:24 pm)Ambassador wrote The problem is there won't be an immediate return to normality. Not everything will reopen at the same time, not everything will reopen. People won't just suddenly start getting on buses and trains - especially if face mask guidance comes in. People will remain wary and will likely stick to their car.Agree even when buses do go back to normal service I can't see people using them unless they really have to. I think people will think twice before going on days out using buses for at least 6 month to a year and that's when we do have normality back. It's very likely some bus companies possibly one or two of the big ones will go bust because of this.
We're still in the realms of shielded and the elderly being isolated until 2021.
Pricing won't be the problem. Survival will.
(24 Apr 2020, 2:50 pm)col87 wrote Agree even when buses do go back to normal service I can't see people using them unless they really have to. I think people will think twice before going on days out using buses for at least 6 month to a year and that's when we do have normality back. It's very likely some bus companies possibly one or two of the big ones will go bust because of this.
(17 Apr 2020, 8:25 pm)James101 wrote Buses could be ran with objectives other than profit. These could be along the lines of ensuring urban populations are within 500m of a regular service, rural communities of over 1000 people are connected at least twice a week or bus services are incorporated into new developments from the beginning, ending the current bus deserts that come with new housing. Flat fare and single operator brand would be so much more accessible for the general public. No more of the pricing anomalies/legacy pricing/gouging as discussed above.
(02 May 2020, 11:14 am)Adrian wrote This is something that still surprises me. There's section 106 money up for grabs through agreement with most new developments of significance, yet it rarely seems to be used on giving a 'kick start' to a new bus service (or re-routing) to serve the new estate. Perhaps a lobbying opportunity for the operators to encourage in the future...
(05 Aug 2020, 9:26 am)Ambassador wrote Interesting move in Blackpool - cut fares to encourage more travel. Will hopefully help them grow numbers during staycation.
Credit to them, they've got a very modern fleet with bells and whistles and are very reliable in the face of almost constant traffic disruption around the town.
https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/busin...st-2932341
(05 Aug 2020, 10:19 am)Andreos1 wrote Something I wish other operators would do. As opposed to complaining that numbers are gonna drop and shrugging their shoulders about it.
(05 Aug 2020, 10:44 am)Ambassador wrote Ah yes but to have a brand new bus fleet with NSA, leather, tables and wooden flooring you can't possibly reduce pricing. It's what we've been told on here for years!
Of course it helps when you don't have shareholders as your number one Customer...
(05 Aug 2020, 10:44 am)Ambassador wrote Ah yes but to have a brand new bus fleet with NSA, leather, tables and wooden flooring you can't possibly reduce pricing. It's what we've been told on here for years!
Of course it helps when you don't have shareholders as your number one Customer...
(05 Aug 2020, 11:16 am)streetdeckfan wrote Why would they reduce pricing? They're already reasonably priced as it is, as long as you don't buy a single, which almost never make sense.
(05 Aug 2020, 12:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote
It's almost as if pricing theory goes out of the vinyl covered window!
But that's the thing, sometimes a single is the only option. Not everyone is a regular punter on the X21 and not everyone needs or is able to use a bus every day.
I've shared many an example of when I've needed to buy a single and had to be peeled off the floor with shock when the driver has announced the latest increase.
That's just me. There's many other permutations and reasons why singles are the only option.
Granted the evening, 24 hour and other new tickets are an improvement on what was seen previously. I don't think it's perfect by any means.
The fact Blackpool are putting measures in to place by reducing fares and gaining some word of mouth and free press advertising in the process is only a good thing. Isn't it?
(05 Aug 2020, 12:14 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Hence why I said 'almost never'. In a few situations, it does make sense. But realistically, when is the average person making a single journey? Surely they want to get home!
Plus, I was talking more about pricing in general, at the minute, I'd say a price decrease (even if it is just an offer) is probably better marketing than an ad campaign!
(05 Aug 2020, 12:14 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Hence why I said 'almost never'. In a few situations, it does make sense. But realistically, when is the average person making a single journey? Surely they want to get home!
Plus, I was talking more about pricing in general, at the minute, I'd say a price decrease (even if it is just an offer) is probably better marketing than an ad campaign!
(05 Aug 2020, 12:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote Nights out needing a taxi back? Shift workers finishing or starting between operating hours? One way trips to the airport or railway station? Visiting a 'friend' or friend and stopping the night? Lack of Sunday or evening services rendering a 24 hour ticket worthless?
Just a few examples off the top of my head. There will be many more.
Now if those people could find an alternative methods of transport over the bus, before covid19, then what on earth would attract them to public transport now? Cheaper tickets perhaps? Just a thought... Or a shrug of the shoulder and acceptance that numbers are going to drop?
Tesco sell their nearly out of date bread for 10p if it means some money in the till. If they sell 10 of those loaves, even better!
Far from saying operators need to sell tickets for 10p, maybe they need to look at how an ignored market can make them some money. Some money is better than no money.
(05 Aug 2020, 1:48 pm)Ambassador wrote But those are the Customers you need to attract or you'll never grow.
Most bus users are on the bus because there is no other option. It's a captive market in that sense. What you need to do is attract the 'on the way to the Fell or Durham or a pint' types who will spend and maybe begin to use your bus regularly on a weekend to go for a pint.
No amount of bus lanes or priority traffic management will help with that. It's got to be cost effective before you even think about bragging about anything else
(05 Aug 2020, 2:12 pm)streetdeckfan wrote But the thing is, Tesco are selling the bread for 10p because if they don't they have to pay to get rid of it. It's cheaper to give it away than it is to keep it.
In a service industry, things like that don't exist.
The closest they could get is offering things like the evening ticket with reduced fares after 7pm, the buses are running anyway, so even at a reduced fare it's more money.
If you're buying a single ticket, chances are you're not going very far since it'd just be along one route, otherwise it'd probably be cheaper getting a day ticket if you have to change. In that case, it'll be cheaper getting the bus than a taxi.
The only thing I could really see them doing is having a group ticket that you can use throughout the day rather than evenings, as it's usually when you travel in a group that a taxi works out cheaper
But they aren't going to be buying a single, if they're going out for a pint, they'll want to get home, presumably the same day or at least before 3am, when day tickets expire.
I suppose, if they allowed day tickets to be used on nightbus services they might attract more customers
(05 Aug 2020, 2:12 pm)streetdeckfan wrote But the thing is, Tesco are selling the bread for 10p because if they don't they have to pay to get rid of it. It's cheaper to give it away than it is to keep it.Did the 24 hour tickets go the journey, then?
In a service industry, things like that don't exist.
The closest they could get is offering things like the evening ticket with reduced fares after 7pm, the buses are running anyway, so even at a reduced fare it's more money.
If you're buying a single ticket, chances are you're not going very far since it'd just be along one route, otherwise it'd probably be cheaper getting a day ticket if you have to change. In that case, it'll be cheaper getting the bus than a taxi.
The only thing I could really see them doing is having a group ticket that you can use throughout the day rather than evenings, as it's usually when you travel in a group that a taxi works out cheaper
But they aren't going to be buying a single, if they're going out for a pint, they'll want to get home, presumably the same day or at least before 3am, when day tickets expire.
I suppose, if they allowed day tickets to be used on nightbus services they might attract more customers
(05 Aug 2020, 3:55 pm)Andreos1 wrote A bus before 3am when the tickets expire? Aye, cos there's a boat load of buses kicking around at 3am...
It's hard enough getting a bus beyond 11pm in most places, never mind 3am, so the chances of the majority getting a bus back is slim to nil simply due to last orders.
The point about tesco is that they're taking money for stock left on their shelves.
If seats on buses equate to opportunities to make money (just like that bread), then you can see how lower fares could attract customers.
Do you continue to price the seats/bread at a price that isn't very attractive or do you adapt the price and see demand increasing?
As ambassador said, those people who could pay one way to the pub, but don't - are the people that bus operators want to make a modal switch.
A 21 to Low Fell and an N21 back would tick a fare few boxes.
As it is, a taxi there and back for a group is probably cheaper. So not only do GNE lose out on the 21 fare, but they lose out on the N21 fare too.
Even if the N21 wasn't operating, a group heading out and paying x per head, can make all sorts of difference to the viability of a route.
Charging those group of 5, a pound a pop makes more difference to the GNE coffers than it does having the same group sitting in a taxi and adding to the traffic delays along the way.
Add in the fact that the average 21 on a pre-covid 19 Friday night heading in to Newcastle, is overtaken by half a dozen taxis on the way...
That patter about not going far, sums up how far removed from real-life, ignorant or niaeve some of the posts on this forum really are.
'It doesn't apply to me, so doesn't exist' mentality. I often wonder if the powers that be within the operators are of the same mindset.
Sorry to hark on about my own experiences, rather than yours on the X21, but I used to do an absolute boat load of work in Glasgow. The (approx) 18:25 North from Durham was my go to. Paying what I did per mile for my single trip on the 20s made me change how I got to the station.
You're right in what you say about the journey not being far. It made the cost per mile even worse.
(05 Aug 2020, 11:09 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Did the 24 hour tickets go the journey, then?
(06 Aug 2020, 8:07 am)streetdeckfan wrote I don't disagree with you there, that's exactly what they've done introducing the evening and group tickets. Some money is better than no money, and like you say, it reduces the traffic they have to get through on a night.
Perhaps it's because I grew up with everyone in my family running businesses and studied business management, but I personally don't have an issue paying more per mile for a shorter journey. That's the economies of scale. It's the same way a 500ml bottle of Pepsi can cost you £1.10 in Tesco, but a 1.15l bottle is only 5p more.
It's still available on the app, although all mention of it seems to have disappeared from the website!
(06 Aug 2020, 9:34 am)Andreos1 wrote Excellent. Would you be able to share your knowledge on economies of scale in relation to bus fares on buses. Say the 20 on the following stages? Durham - Belmont, Durham - Houghton, Durham - Sunderland and Durham - Shields.
Keen to read your insights and thoughts on this and how economy of scale applies to these fares. Particularly singles
(06 Aug 2020, 10:43 am)Rob44 wrote If they lowered the single price how do you know that the price decrease wouldnt lead to 5 more bums on seat for that journey meaning their income would actually RISE?!You'd need a lot more than 5 extra people to make up for the lost income. The main reason for single fares being so high is down to concessionary reimbursement being based on the average fare.
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(06 Aug 2020, 10:43 am)Rob44 wrote If they lowered the single price how do you know that the price decrease wouldnt lead to 5 more bums on seat for that journey meaning their income would actually RISE?!
(06 Aug 2020, 10:11 am)streetdeckfan wrote Im sure I've said this before, but it's the people paying the higher, single prices that allow the day/week/monthly tickets to be lower. If they lowered the price of the single tickets, income would go down, and they'd have to recover that some way.
There are some fees that don't go away no matter how short the journey, card fees are ahold example these days. One larger transaction is going to be cheaper than several small transactions that add up to the same value.
If you disagree with me, I'd be genuinely interested in your view on it
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(06 Aug 2020, 10:53 am)tyresmoke wrote You'd need a lot more than 5 extra people to make up for the lost income. The main reason for single fares being so high is down to concessionary reimbursement being based on the average fare.
