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(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(25 Jan 2022, 10:54 pm)OrangeArrow49 https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...978772612/
(25 Jan 2022, 10:54 pm)OrangeArrow49 https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...978772612/
(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza Would you include the Coast Road services? Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?
(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza Would you include the Coast Road services? Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?
(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(26 Jan 2022, 12:07 am)Jimmi I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.
I'm not too knowledgeable on the routes up there although I came to much the same conclusion with the GNE 1 & SNE 22 effectively duping one another from Newcastle to Wallsend.
The 19 you could probs cut to run Northumberland Park to North Shields only as pretty much the whole route is covered by other services although maybe not direct connections and journeys currently offered in places.
Isn't the Kingston Park / Airport Dinnington end of the 42A supported already? Unsure if any other part is, perhaps extend the Arriva 44/45?
Will just have to see what happens at the end of the day really...
(26 Jan 2022, 12:07 am)Jimmi I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.
I'm not too knowledgeable on the routes up there although I came to much the same conclusion with the GNE 1 & SNE 22 effectively duping one another from Newcastle to Wallsend.
The 19 you could probs cut to run Northumberland Park to North Shields only as pretty much the whole route is covered by other services although maybe not direct connections and journeys currently offered in places.
Isn't the Kingston Park / Airport Dinnington end of the 42A supported already? Unsure if any other part is, perhaps extend the Arriva 44/45?
Will just have to see what happens at the end of the day really...
(25 Jan 2022, 11:51 pm)Adrian Good but interesting update. The funding situation is a mess at the moment, so big changes are going to sadly be inevitable unless the Government stick their hand in their pocket.The whole thing is a mess and has been from the start, as soon as it became clear that Covid wasn’t a short term issue, transport funding and routes should have been slashed to bare essentials (and protected in reserve) during the initial lockdown and the following period. Instead we paid companies to carry around fresh air. Now, as we get to a potential recovery, we cut the funding and stunt any potential natural re growth of passenger numbers.
The £7.5m reduction in ENCTS budget by Nexus; this was discussed at the JTC in November, and as I understood, it's due to the calculation moving from estimates at pre-Covid levels rather than actuals. That was retained by Nexus throughout 2020/21 and 2021/22 financial years, in-line with Government policy. Nexus estimated in November that ENCTS use was around 60% of pre-pandemic levels (across the county - not just GNE). They claimed at the JTC that this resulted in an estimated £40 million over-payment to operators during the two financial years.
The knock on impact if that hadn't happened would have likely been a complete decimation of services I'd imagine, but its good to consider these things with the context.
Even with reducing this though, Nexus are still very much in the shit financially and it won't be long before they move to the last resort of increasing the levy in Tyne and Wear and asking for more cash from Durham and Northumberland. Very much like Nexus, cash none of the Councils have, after 12 years of austerity. They're using around £5.5m of reserves to balance the budget this year, which never a good place to be in.
There'll be the usual finger-wagging that Nexus are cutting bus support to bail out the Metro, but we shouldn't forget that the support for Light Rail is facing the same April cliff-edge as the Bus Recovery Grant.
There's an enormous funding gap right across public transport at the minute. There's an estimated £5bn funding gap in what's required to deliver the National Bus Strategy. After the Govt told everyone to go away and draw up ambitious Bus Service Improvement Plans and form Enhanced Partnerships, they've gradually cut the £3bn on offer to £2bn, then again to £1.4bn.
I've said before and I'll say again, but I really think the idea of a BSIP or Enhanced Partnership up here is all but abandoned, and really to no fault of the operators or local authorities. That's evident in the changes suggested in Martijn's video and what we've already seen elsewhere in the GNE network, before we even get on to other operators making cuts.
Unless the Govt make the funding available, we'll be lucky to get a fleet of model buses out of a BSIP, never mind a Superbus network.
Damned either way. Now…where’s my Uber/car keys/electric bike/cab?
(25 Jan 2022, 11:51 pm)Adrian Good but interesting update. The funding situation is a mess at the moment, so big changes are going to sadly be inevitable unless the Government stick their hand in their pocket.The whole thing is a mess and has been from the start, as soon as it became clear that Covid wasn’t a short term issue, transport funding and routes should have been slashed to bare essentials (and protected in reserve) during the initial lockdown and the following period. Instead we paid companies to carry around fresh air. Now, as we get to a potential recovery, we cut the funding and stunt any potential natural re growth of passenger numbers.
The £7.5m reduction in ENCTS budget by Nexus; this was discussed at the JTC in November, and as I understood, it's due to the calculation moving from estimates at pre-Covid levels rather than actuals. That was retained by Nexus throughout 2020/21 and 2021/22 financial years, in-line with Government policy. Nexus estimated in November that ENCTS use was around 60% of pre-pandemic levels (across the county - not just GNE). They claimed at the JTC that this resulted in an estimated £40 million over-payment to operators during the two financial years.
The knock on impact if that hadn't happened would have likely been a complete decimation of services I'd imagine, but its good to consider these things with the context.
Even with reducing this though, Nexus are still very much in the shit financially and it won't be long before they move to the last resort of increasing the levy in Tyne and Wear and asking for more cash from Durham and Northumberland. Very much like Nexus, cash none of the Councils have, after 12 years of austerity. They're using around £5.5m of reserves to balance the budget this year, which never a good place to be in.
There'll be the usual finger-wagging that Nexus are cutting bus support to bail out the Metro, but we shouldn't forget that the support for Light Rail is facing the same April cliff-edge as the Bus Recovery Grant.
There's an enormous funding gap right across public transport at the minute. There's an estimated £5bn funding gap in what's required to deliver the National Bus Strategy. After the Govt told everyone to go away and draw up ambitious Bus Service Improvement Plans and form Enhanced Partnerships, they've gradually cut the £3bn on offer to £2bn, then again to £1.4bn.
I've said before and I'll say again, but I really think the idea of a BSIP or Enhanced Partnership up here is all but abandoned, and really to no fault of the operators or local authorities. That's evident in the changes suggested in Martijn's video and what we've already seen elsewhere in the GNE network, before we even get on to other operators making cuts.
Unless the Govt make the funding available, we'll be lucky to get a fleet of model buses out of a BSIP, never mind a Superbus network.
Damned either way. Now…where’s my Uber/car keys/electric bike/cab?
(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.
If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.
I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.
(25 Jan 2022, 10:55 pm)AnonPM1 They want to cut the 11, 42/42a and 19 completely/. The 41 will go from Hadrian Park to Wallsend only via Wiltshire Drive.If true that must be around 15 PVR being cut - many of them could be retained of course if GNE win the Nexus tenders.
The Q3 will also only go as far as St. Peters all day and go via osborne road
Its likely they are cutting those services so that Nexus have to put a tender out for them that GNE can then bid on, as i believe Martijn said in the update. because although the reasoning for them being cut is that they lose money operating them there is still alot of demand for them in the day.
(25 Jan 2022, 10:55 pm)AnonPM1 They want to cut the 11, 42/42a and 19 completely/. The 41 will go from Hadrian Park to Wallsend only via Wiltshire Drive.If true that must be around 15 PVR being cut - many of them could be retained of course if GNE win the Nexus tenders.
The Q3 will also only go as far as St. Peters all day and go via osborne road
Its likely they are cutting those services so that Nexus have to put a tender out for them that GNE can then bid on, as i believe Martijn said in the update. because although the reasoning for them being cut is that they lose money operating them there is still alot of demand for them in the day.
(26 Jan 2022, 8:24 am)Arcticrossy92 Q3 withdrawn from the NT section will leave Westbourne Avenue without a bus service for the first time in living memory I believe, From the Middle of Westbourne Avenue its a good 10-15minute walk to either end of the street to catch another Stagecoach. bus (39,40,22)
Service 18 was curtailed to Walker when the Q3 was extended, potentially extend it back to Wallsend.
(26 Jan 2022, 8:24 am)Arcticrossy92 Q3 withdrawn from the NT section will leave Westbourne Avenue without a bus service for the first time in living memory I believe, From the Middle of Westbourne Avenue its a good 10-15minute walk to either end of the street to catch another Stagecoach. bus (39,40,22)
Service 18 was curtailed to Walker when the Q3 was extended, potentially extend it back to Wallsend.
Well I've just got access to the tenders through work and they're interesting in parts. Can't really say much more though. Nothing really unexpected though and no-one will be left stranded without a bus service at all including some new routes altogether especially involving the 359.
(26 Jan 2022, 9:46 am)Storx Well I've just got access to the tenders through work and they're interesting in parts. Can't really say much more though. Nothing really unexpected though and no-one will be left stranded without a bus service at all including some new routes altogether especially involving the 359.
(26 Jan 2022, 9:46 am)Storx Well I've just got access to the tenders through work and they're interesting in parts. Can't really say much more though. Nothing really unexpected though and no-one will be left stranded without a bus service at all including some new routes altogether especially involving the 359.
(26 Jan 2022, 10:22 am)peter Assume this will be the 351 that's been suggested through consultation? https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation/it...ed-new-351
(26 Jan 2022, 10:22 am)peter Assume this will be the 351 that's been suggested through consultation? https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation/it...ed-new-351
(26 Jan 2022, 10:33 am)Storx Nah there's no 351. I'm not sure what the point of the consultation was because from what I can see they've ignored pretty much everything.
(26 Jan 2022, 10:33 am)Storx Nah there's no 351. I'm not sure what the point of the consultation was because from what I can see they've ignored pretty much everything.
(26 Jan 2022, 10:39 am)busmanT I suspect that's because the commercial intentions of the bus companies weren't known at the time they did the consultation - what has been posted elsewhere on here suggests that Nexus are going to have to secure a wide range of additional bus services (presumably at inflated costs due to the driver shortage and subsequent lack of operators who will be submitting tenders).
(26 Jan 2022, 10:39 am)busmanT I suspect that's because the commercial intentions of the bus companies weren't known at the time they did the consultation - what has been posted elsewhere on here suggests that Nexus are going to have to secure a wide range of additional bus services (presumably at inflated costs due to the driver shortage and subsequent lack of operators who will be submitting tenders).
(26 Jan 2022, 11:05 am)Storx Honestly, I'm not sure it is. The tenders out now are much better than what was being proposed imo. They've removed most of the short useless routes from allover pretty much now and replaced them with longer connected services creating links that people actually want.
I slag Nexus off a lot but the changes (excluding their subsidised) are mostly positive really. It seems like they've actually tried to make routes that people actually want to use rather than routes because of they've 'always been there'.
(26 Jan 2022, 11:05 am)Storx Honestly, I'm not sure it is. The tenders out now are much better than what was being proposed imo. They've removed most of the short useless routes from allover pretty much now and replaced them with longer connected services creating links that people actually want.
I slag Nexus off a lot but the changes (excluding their subsidised) are mostly positive really. It seems like they've actually tried to make routes that people actually want to use rather than routes because of they've 'always been there'.
(26 Jan 2022, 11:54 am)Thomas12 Sounds positive, thanks for sharing.
Off the top of my head, I'm guessing the following could be merged:
335 and 42/42A - as the 41 is replacing the 42/42A around Wilshire Drive, I'm guessing hourly to Wallsend would be sufficient. So Have the 42 operating it's current route (excluding Wilshire Drive), and the 42A operating current route to Benton Asda, then current 335 route to North Shields. Possibly extend the 42 to Howdon to replace the 41/41A.
333 and 11 could be merged as per the evening/Sunday plans at the previous consultation. Could replace 41/41A around Howdon instead of the 42.
19 and 359 could be merged, extending to Backworth, then continuing to Seaton Deleval to continue current route, which I'm guessing will be staying as it's funded by NCC. Not sure if there is any need for for the Cramlington-Ashington, or even the Silverlink-North Shields section however. Could just be Silverlink or Percy Main to Cramlington in reality as the 11 covers the Percy Main to North Shields section well enough.
I'm sure the Whitley Bay local routes could be rationalised too. Possibly incorporate them into the 11 or 57/57A.
(26 Jan 2022, 11:54 am)Thomas12 Sounds positive, thanks for sharing.
Off the top of my head, I'm guessing the following could be merged:
335 and 42/42A - as the 41 is replacing the 42/42A around Wilshire Drive, I'm guessing hourly to Wallsend would be sufficient. So Have the 42 operating it's current route (excluding Wilshire Drive), and the 42A operating current route to Benton Asda, then current 335 route to North Shields. Possibly extend the 42 to Howdon to replace the 41/41A.
333 and 11 could be merged as per the evening/Sunday plans at the previous consultation. Could replace 41/41A around Howdon instead of the 42.
19 and 359 could be merged, extending to Backworth, then continuing to Seaton Deleval to continue current route, which I'm guessing will be staying as it's funded by NCC. Not sure if there is any need for for the Cramlington-Ashington, or even the Silverlink-North Shields section however. Could just be Silverlink or Percy Main to Cramlington in reality as the 11 covers the Percy Main to North Shields section well enough.
I'm sure the Whitley Bay local routes could be rationalised too. Possibly incorporate them into the 11 or 57/57A.
Battlehill does have a good pick up usage however getting rid of 41 and 41A through Battlehill or removing the service altogether would be criminal as that is the only link to Wallsend even if the evening services are currently contracted as a secure service and often fails to operate the service.
A few older residents need this service for access to Wallsend, the service allows staff to go to work at the many care homes dotted around the route.
You also have to think in 2022 there is a new urgent care centre being opened in Wallsend and this current service provides a major link from Hadrian Park Battlehill High Farm.
There current 553 although goes to Battlehill doesn't actually operate past Lidl and the shops a quick drive past the shops to the Buzz Bingo and back and battlehill drive could create more passengers for a nexus secured contract wether its for Bingo, B and Q Smyths toy shop before heading back along Battlehill you then create a link to Wallsend.
It also means you can get off say the 306 309 310 311 and not move bus stops to get a link to Freeman Hospital etc . . .
(25 Jan 2022, 9:35 pm)Dan Go North East were in the worst position financially pre-pandemic. Post-pandemic, without CBSSG, only Stagecoach are making a profit in the North East (and a small one at that). It’s not surprising that Go North East is therefore making the biggest cuts. I think Arriva have made some fairly big cuts across the network too, but seem to ‘get away with it’ for want of a better phrase.
The cuts from other operators will come, you are correct. I have just posted earlier this evening that Nexus tenders in North Tyneside and Newcastle include services which are currently operated by Stagecoach commercially, that they intend to withdraw.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(25 Jan 2022, 9:35 pm)Dan Go North East were in the worst position financially pre-pandemic. Post-pandemic, without CBSSG, only Stagecoach are making a profit in the North East (and a small one at that). It’s not surprising that Go North East is therefore making the biggest cuts. I think Arriva have made some fairly big cuts across the network too, but seem to ‘get away with it’ for want of a better phrase.
The cuts from other operators will come, you are correct. I have just posted earlier this evening that Nexus tenders in North Tyneside and Newcastle include services which are currently operated by Stagecoach commercially, that they intend to withdraw.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza Would you include the Coast Road services? Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?
(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza Would you include the Coast Road services? Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?
(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza The question is why?
What was GNE doing wrong? Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding, fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.
(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza The question is why?
What was GNE doing wrong? Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding, fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.
