Stagecoach North East: Order Predictions
Stagecoach North East: Order Predictions
The "Super 6" Darts were in service on route 59 in Stockton from November 1997, allowing Lynx's to move to Hartlepool to withdraw the final RE in November 1997. And thet's what I was refering to, not when they were transfered to Hartlepool, which was in indeed June '99, giving Hartlepool it's 2nd low entrance route. Jayline's 226 beating them by a week! I'm assuming references to B10B's are a typo? Hartlepool never ran any.
The only buses I've had stuggle on the 1 are ADLs in limp mode, particularly passing Able UK at a maximum speed of 20! The MANs manage just fine. They tend to allocate 360xx buses as there's 3 of them I think? That can do 65 MPH rather than the 49MPH everything else is limited to.
The 2004 Dart's will have been kept on that route for years as they were bought specifically for that route with some local authority funding which probably had usage restrictions or something like that.
Any accesibility issues will be because the MAN's are 11.5 metres long, the ADL's are only 10.8 metres.
The last time I drove 35234 I was told not to turn that off too but wasn't told why.
(17 Aug 2022, 10:39 am)tcts24 The "Super 6" Darts were in service on route 59 in Stockton from November 1997, allowing Lynx's to move to Hartlepool to withdraw the final RE in November 1997. And thet's what I was refering to, not when they were transfered to Hartlepool, which was in indeed June '99, giving Hartlepool it's 2nd low entrance route. Jayline's 226 beating them by a week! I'm assuming references to B10B's are a typo? Hartlepool never ran any.Ok just what I have noticed when the man’s have been on the 1.
The only buses I've had stuggle on the 1 are ADLs in limp mode, particularly passing Able UK at a maximum speed of 20! The MANs manage just fine. They tend to allocate 360xx buses as there's 3 of them I think? That can do 65 MPH rather than the 49MPH everything else is limited to.
The 2004 Dart's will have been kept on that route for years as they were bought specifically for that route with some local authority funding which probably had usage restrictions or something like that.
Any accesibility issues will be because the MAN's are 11.5 metres long, the ADL's are only 10.8 metres.
The last time I drove 35234 I was told not to turn that off too but wasn't told why.
(17 Aug 2022, 10:39 am)tcts24 The "Super 6" Darts were in service on route 59 in Stockton from November 1997, allowing Lynx's to move to Hartlepool to withdraw the final RE in November 1997. And thet's what I was refering to, not when they were transfered to Hartlepool, which was in indeed June '99, giving Hartlepool it's 2nd low entrance route. Jayline's 226 beating them by a week! I'm assuming references to B10B's are a typo? Hartlepool never ran any.Ok just what I have noticed when the man’s have been on the 1.
The only buses I've had stuggle on the 1 are ADLs in limp mode, particularly passing Able UK at a maximum speed of 20! The MANs manage just fine. They tend to allocate 360xx buses as there's 3 of them I think? That can do 65 MPH rather than the 49MPH everything else is limited to.
The 2004 Dart's will have been kept on that route for years as they were bought specifically for that route with some local authority funding which probably had usage restrictions or something like that.
Any accesibility issues will be because the MAN's are 11.5 metres long, the ADL's are only 10.8 metres.
The last time I drove 35234 I was told not to turn that off too but wasn't told why.
I know SC Cumbria have just marked 3 MX55 tridents for disposal, its a shame that SNE don't snap them up if they are half decent to use in Sunderland, being significantly younger than the open top tridents which are getting used on various routes, plus Kent has a 54 reg and SC west and oxfordshire a 06 plate, i know obviously they are abit older but if they are in decent shape I'm sure 5 double decker's would be a welcome addition to sunderland depot
(21 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm)toward6931 I know SC Cumbria have just marked 3 MX55 tridents for disposal, its a shame that SNE don't snap them up if they are half decent to use in Sunderland, being significantly younger than the open top tridents which are getting used on various routes, plus Kent has a 54 reg and SC west and oxfordshire a 06 plate, i know obviously they are abit older but if they are in decent shape I'm sure 5 double decker's would be a welcome addition to sunderland depot
(21 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm)toward6931 I know SC Cumbria have just marked 3 MX55 tridents for disposal, its a shame that SNE don't snap them up if they are half decent to use in Sunderland, being significantly younger than the open top tridents which are getting used on various routes, plus Kent has a 54 reg and SC west and oxfordshire a 06 plate, i know obviously they are abit older but if they are in decent shape I'm sure 5 double decker's would be a welcome addition to sunderland depot
(21 Aug 2022, 10:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot For what? The Tridents afaik only get used on the 19 or Es - although they are heaps they are at least open top heaps, which make for a nice day at the seaside (or touring the Sunderland north estates, whatever your preference may be).If they where to go anywhere then Stockton would be the obvious choice for the 12 13 36 37 38 39 52 58 services which in some causes a double decker would be handy. Even Hartlepool at peak times could do with them for the 6/7 to make it less packed.
(21 Aug 2022, 10:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot For what? The Tridents afaik only get used on the 19 or Es - although they are heaps they are at least open top heaps, which make for a nice day at the seaside (or touring the Sunderland north estates, whatever your preference may be).If they where to go anywhere then Stockton would be the obvious choice for the 12 13 36 37 38 39 52 58 services which in some causes a double decker would be handy. Even Hartlepool at peak times could do with them for the 6/7 to make it less packed.
(21 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm)toward6931 I know SC Cumbria have just marked 3 MX55 tridents for disposal, its a shame that SNE don't snap them up if they are half decent to use in Sunderland, being significantly younger than the open top tridents which are getting used on various routes, plus Kent has a 54 reg and SC west and oxfordshire a 06 plate, i know obviously they are abit older but if they are in decent shape I'm sure 5 double decker's would be a welcome addition to sunderland depotAre you forecasting these to have their roofs chopped off as replacements? 17643 is being repaired which was a surprise given it's age so the quartet would appear to be staying for at least another year
(21 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm)toward6931 I know SC Cumbria have just marked 3 MX55 tridents for disposal, its a shame that SNE don't snap them up if they are half decent to use in Sunderland, being significantly younger than the open top tridents which are getting used on various routes, plus Kent has a 54 reg and SC west and oxfordshire a 06 plate, i know obviously they are abit older but if they are in decent shape I'm sure 5 double decker's would be a welcome addition to sunderland depotAre you forecasting these to have their roofs chopped off as replacements? 17643 is being repaired which was a surprise given it's age so the quartet would appear to be staying for at least another year
(21 Aug 2022, 10:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot For what? The Tridents afaik only get used on the 19 or Es - although they are heaps they are at least open top heaps, which make for a nice day at the seaside (or touring the Sunderland north estates, whatever your preference may be).exactly save the open toppers for the seaside runs and use dedicated on the estates
(22 Aug 2022, 7:07 am)54APhotography Are you forecasting these to have their roofs chopped off as replacements? 17643 is being repaired which was a surprise given it's age so the quartet would appear to be staying for at least another yearno, i was saying that instead of using the open toppers for increasing capacity on the standard services, if hypothetically these trident were sourced they could be used on the Es and other routes etc. potentially a few years down the line when the current open toppers are worn out maybe convert the newer ones
(21 Aug 2022, 10:36 pm)col87 If they where to go anywhere then Stockton would be the obvious choice for the 12 13 36 37 38 39 52 58 services which in some causes a double decker would be handy. Even Hartlepool at peak times could do with them for the 6/7 to make it less packed.or send them to stockton
(21 Aug 2022, 10:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot For what? The Tridents afaik only get used on the 19 or Es - although they are heaps they are at least open top heaps, which make for a nice day at the seaside (or touring the Sunderland north estates, whatever your preference may be).exactly save the open toppers for the seaside runs and use dedicated on the estates
(22 Aug 2022, 7:07 am)54APhotography Are you forecasting these to have their roofs chopped off as replacements? 17643 is being repaired which was a surprise given it's age so the quartet would appear to be staying for at least another yearno, i was saying that instead of using the open toppers for increasing capacity on the standard services, if hypothetically these trident were sourced they could be used on the Es and other routes etc. potentially a few years down the line when the current open toppers are worn out maybe convert the newer ones
(21 Aug 2022, 10:36 pm)col87 If they where to go anywhere then Stockton would be the obvious choice for the 12 13 36 37 38 39 52 58 services which in some causes a double decker would be handy. Even Hartlepool at peak times could do with them for the 6/7 to make it less packed.or send them to stockton
(22 Aug 2022, 10:14 am)toward6931 exactly save the open toppers for the seaside runs and use dedicated on the estates
no, i was saying that instead of using the open toppers for increasing capacity on the standard services, if hypothetically these trident were sourced they could be used on the Es and other routes etc. potentially a few years down the line when the current open toppers are worn out maybe convert the newer ones
(22 Aug 2022, 10:14 am)toward6931 exactly save the open toppers for the seaside runs and use dedicated on the estates
no, i was saying that instead of using the open toppers for increasing capacity on the standard services, if hypothetically these trident were sourced they could be used on the Es and other routes etc. potentially a few years down the line when the current open toppers are worn out maybe convert the newer ones
(22 Aug 2022, 11:46 am)stagecoachbusdepot But the 19 runs from the estates to the seaside - that's the point of it...so if they are struggling would newer vehicles not help matters?
Do they even use the open toppers on standard services? Can probably count on one hand the number of times it has ever happened. They struggle enough to even use them on the open top routes half the time!
(22 Aug 2022, 11:46 am)stagecoachbusdepot But the 19 runs from the estates to the seaside - that's the point of it...so if they are struggling would newer vehicles not help matters?
Do they even use the open toppers on standard services? Can probably count on one hand the number of times it has ever happened. They struggle enough to even use them on the open top routes half the time!
(22 Aug 2022, 1:27 pm)toward6931 so if they are struggling would newer vehicles not help matters?
(22 Aug 2022, 1:27 pm)toward6931 so if they are struggling would newer vehicles not help matters?
(22 Aug 2022, 3:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot Of course, assuming the ones available aren't knackered. I would be amazed however if SNE went to the expense of converting some more life expired deckers to open top for the PVR of 1 on the 19 plus whatever random offering on the Es. The only reason we have the open toppers is because they became spare on the demise of CSS. They tried Seasider and abandoned it (who knows if that might have grown were it not for Covid) and now are basically just making use of the otherwise dead resource.no i wasn't suggesting to convert these vehicles yet, what I was suggesting was that if it is worth putting decker's on those services, bearing in mind how unpredictable the weather has been and the age of the open toppers, could it be worth if the Cumbria decker's aren't knackered acquiring them to use as spare vehicles so that if the open toppers do have a serious break down there is a vehicle of similar capacity to cover it.
(22 Aug 2022, 3:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot Of course, assuming the ones available aren't knackered. I would be amazed however if SNE went to the expense of converting some more life expired deckers to open top for the PVR of 1 on the 19 plus whatever random offering on the Es. The only reason we have the open toppers is because they became spare on the demise of CSS. They tried Seasider and abandoned it (who knows if that might have grown were it not for Covid) and now are basically just making use of the otherwise dead resource.no i wasn't suggesting to convert these vehicles yet, what I was suggesting was that if it is worth putting decker's on those services, bearing in mind how unpredictable the weather has been and the age of the open toppers, could it be worth if the Cumbria decker's aren't knackered acquiring them to use as spare vehicles so that if the open toppers do have a serious break down there is a vehicle of similar capacity to cover it.
(22 Aug 2022, 7:18 pm)toward6931 no i wasn't suggesting to convert these vehicles yet, what I was suggesting was that if it is worth putting decker's on those services, bearing in mind how unpredictable the weather has been and the age of the open toppers, could it be worth if the Cumbria decker's aren't knackered acquiring them to use as spare vehicles so that if the open toppers do have a serious break down there is a vehicle of similar capacity to cover it.I feel like I'm missing something - if one breaks down what's wrong with an E400? Why must it be another ALX? The Eco routes run along the coast - why wouldn't you run open toppers on it in summer, even if existing pax numbers didn't justify it? It's an easy (and probably cheap) way of going "ooh look at our routes" while maybe increasing passenger numbers a bit.
(22 Aug 2022, 7:18 pm)toward6931 no i wasn't suggesting to convert these vehicles yet, what I was suggesting was that if it is worth putting decker's on those services, bearing in mind how unpredictable the weather has been and the age of the open toppers, could it be worth if the Cumbria decker's aren't knackered acquiring them to use as spare vehicles so that if the open toppers do have a serious break down there is a vehicle of similar capacity to cover it.I feel like I'm missing something - if one breaks down what's wrong with an E400? Why must it be another ALX? The Eco routes run along the coast - why wouldn't you run open toppers on it in summer, even if existing pax numbers didn't justify it? It's an easy (and probably cheap) way of going "ooh look at our routes" while maybe increasing passenger numbers a bit.
(22 Aug 2022, 7:24 pm)F114TML I feel like I'm missing something - if one breaks down what's wrong with an E400? Why must it be another ALX? The Eco routes run along the coast - why wouldn't you run open toppers on it in summer, even if existing pax numbers didn't justify it? It's an easy (and probably cheap) way of going "ooh look at our routes" while maybe increasing passenger numbers a bit.no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.
(22 Aug 2022, 7:24 pm)F114TML I feel like I'm missing something - if one breaks down what's wrong with an E400? Why must it be another ALX? The Eco routes run along the coast - why wouldn't you run open toppers on it in summer, even if existing pax numbers didn't justify it? It's an easy (and probably cheap) way of going "ooh look at our routes" while maybe increasing passenger numbers a bit.no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.
(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.
you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,
in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.
I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)
(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.
you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,
in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.
I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)
(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.In essence 19179 replaced 19439
you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,
in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.
I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)
(22 Aug 2022, 8:24 pm)toward6931 no I'm not saying it has to be an ALX, what I mean is there is a growing shortage of vehicles. the fact that the MMCs get pulled away regularly for events like Cheltenham and the commonwealth games. there is an increasingly older fleet of single decker's to rely on and there is also a problematic fleet of E200s.In essence 19179 replaced 19439
you've got vehicles getting pulled out of paintshops incomplete because there isn't any spares. high volume routes like the 62/63 getting allocated an 39xxx E200 because there isn't a spare vehicle. after walkergates 19439 I believe it was caught fire nothing replaced it as far as I know, all I'm saying is until either new deliveries or a decent cascade of vehicles happens what is the harm in acquiring a stopgap,
in this hypothetical case if they are in reasonable working order 3 tridents. on paper you could send one of them to Sunderland so that one E400 could go back to walkergate to cover 19439 and 2 to Stockton to allow 2 ALX300s to go to hartlepool to alleviate vehicle problems there.
I would personally love to see 30 plus single and double deck MMCs turn up in the north east but its not looking hopeful so realistically this could be a situation that does occur (maybe newer vehicles)
(22 Aug 2022, 10:05 pm)stagecoachbusdepot Special events aside, I'm not convinced there is a vehicle shortage. Sunderland are still sat on a load of spares since the PVR reduction there. Things are always going to be tight when large numbers are off for a few days/weeks on events work but they aren't going to fund an increased spares % just for that. The issues with the MAN 14.240s is seemingly being addressed by acquiring Darts, which is likely to be the route they continue down as it will be far more economical running an 06 plate dart than an 06 plate decker. When we talk about vehicles getting pulled out of the paintshop half done, let's remember that was one vehicle, which had incompletely applied promotional livery - not a regular occurrence and arguably with better planning they shouldn't have been trying to do it when a load of the fleet were off to Brum...Would disagree Hartlepool has had a shortage for years now not helped by having an unreliable fleet with buses frequently having to be borrowed from Stockton or Sunderland with 3 Hartlepool having 3 buses permanently off the road since December and at least one has now been scrapped. While the Darts have helped slightly they is a shortage of buses at Hartlepool with not many spares. The fact Stockton themselves have now had to borrow buses from Newcastle would suggest that they is a shortage.
(22 Aug 2022, 10:05 pm)stagecoachbusdepot Special events aside, I'm not convinced there is a vehicle shortage. Sunderland are still sat on a load of spares since the PVR reduction there. Things are always going to be tight when large numbers are off for a few days/weeks on events work but they aren't going to fund an increased spares % just for that. The issues with the MAN 14.240s is seemingly being addressed by acquiring Darts, which is likely to be the route they continue down as it will be far more economical running an 06 plate dart than an 06 plate decker. When we talk about vehicles getting pulled out of the paintshop half done, let's remember that was one vehicle, which had incompletely applied promotional livery - not a regular occurrence and arguably with better planning they shouldn't have been trying to do it when a load of the fleet were off to Brum...Would disagree Hartlepool has had a shortage for years now not helped by having an unreliable fleet with buses frequently having to be borrowed from Stockton or Sunderland with 3 Hartlepool having 3 buses permanently off the road since December and at least one has now been scrapped. While the Darts have helped slightly they is a shortage of buses at Hartlepool with not many spares. The fact Stockton themselves have now had to borrow buses from Newcastle would suggest that they is a shortage.
(24 Aug 2022, 12:21 am)col87 Would disagree Hartlepool has had a shortage for years now not helped by having an unreliable fleet with buses frequently having to be borrowed from Stockton or Sunderland with 3 Hartlepool having 3 buses permanently off the road since December and at least one has now been scrapped. While the Darts have helped slightly they is a shortage of buses at Hartlepool with not many spares. The fact Stockton themselves have now had to borrow buses from Newcastle would suggest that they is a shortage.
39666 has not been in use for over a week so don’t know if it been withdrawn but alongside 34605 that’s now another 2 buses off the road so something is going to need to happen especially with rumours that 2 - 3 others at Hartlepool could be getting withdrawn as well.
(24 Aug 2022, 12:21 am)col87 Would disagree Hartlepool has had a shortage for years now not helped by having an unreliable fleet with buses frequently having to be borrowed from Stockton or Sunderland with 3 Hartlepool having 3 buses permanently off the road since December and at least one has now been scrapped. While the Darts have helped slightly they is a shortage of buses at Hartlepool with not many spares. The fact Stockton themselves have now had to borrow buses from Newcastle would suggest that they is a shortage.
39666 has not been in use for over a week so don’t know if it been withdrawn but alongside 34605 that’s now another 2 buses off the road so something is going to need to happen especially with rumours that 2 - 3 others at Hartlepool could be getting withdrawn as well.
(24 Aug 2022, 1:20 am)stagecoachbusdepot Across SNE there is no vehicle shortage. The Newcastle buses at Stockton are largely covering for the E200MMCs which were at the Games. This isn't a chronic shortage, the Commonwealth Games is a once in however many years special event. They are not going to hold an inflated fleet in all divisions that send buses to the likes of this, just in case another special event comes along...particularly when they seem to have managed perfectly well with temp national cascades to cover.Closing Hartlepool depot will probably happen but it’s a ridiculous idea. If a 7 breaks down at the Headland that’s going to be at least 30 - 35 minutes for a replacement to get though from Stockton.
39666 has been withdrawn but 36092/93 have been transferred in...
The other MANs which have been withdrawn have been replaced by Darts.
The issue with Hartlepool is it's a tiny fleet/PVR therefore even with a standard spares percentage in terms of number of buses it is very low. What probably needs to happen is for Hartlepool depot to close and whatever local services remain beyond the 36 to run from Stockton, to get economies of scale on fleet spares etc.
(24 Aug 2022, 1:20 am)stagecoachbusdepot Across SNE there is no vehicle shortage. The Newcastle buses at Stockton are largely covering for the E200MMCs which were at the Games. This isn't a chronic shortage, the Commonwealth Games is a once in however many years special event. They are not going to hold an inflated fleet in all divisions that send buses to the likes of this, just in case another special event comes along...particularly when they seem to have managed perfectly well with temp national cascades to cover.Closing Hartlepool depot will probably happen but it’s a ridiculous idea. If a 7 breaks down at the Headland that’s going to be at least 30 - 35 minutes for a replacement to get though from Stockton.
39666 has been withdrawn but 36092/93 have been transferred in...
The other MANs which have been withdrawn have been replaced by Darts.
The issue with Hartlepool is it's a tiny fleet/PVR therefore even with a standard spares percentage in terms of number of buses it is very low. What probably needs to happen is for Hartlepool depot to close and whatever local services remain beyond the 36 to run from Stockton, to get economies of scale on fleet spares etc.
Following the expiry of 39666's MOT, it has indeed been withdrawn. 39661 will follow in a few weeks and a third MAN is due for the chop soon. Not sure what's up with 34605, but its finally been moved back into the yard but face in, in the dead area. 36091-3 are replacing the MAN's.
Apparently the reason Hartlepool depot is still open is because Stockton doesn't have the capacity for the fleet.
The issue now is, there's a vast number of MAN E200s still on fleet - including 39666, there's 40 in total. Once 39661 and the third example is withdrawn, that comes down to 37 - 8 at Hartlepool (presently 11), 11 at South Shields and the remaining 18 at Sunderland (although 39673 hasn't been in use since the end of July). As it appears the more troublesome examples are being withdrawn upon the expiry of their current MOT, replacements are going to be needed. With most other fleets now binning their reserve Darts, the subject of replacements becomes an interesting point of discussion.......
