North East Buses

(10 Jan 2023, 6:13 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I've been out today and i've never really heard massive complaints about the service, obviously there is a one of comment every now and then, but every bus I went on all people were doing was complaining about the disgraceful services, and the state of public transport being abysmal.

I wonder if you offered people free driving lessons how many of them would actually still chose to take the bus, my guess would be around 10%

Even if driving lessons were free (hypothetical as there is a shortage of instructors and examiners have been on strike) there is still the cost of running a car as a new driver to consider.

Apart from the people travelling regularly to work, I'm probably highly representative of the sort of people  bus companies need to woo, using the bus for leisure and shopping. I live in Durham City which is quite self contained but doesn't have the big shops. Until 3 years ago, I would head up to Newcastle a couple of time a week for odds and sods.

Several things have happened, though. The price isn't one of them. That has wavered a bit but not changed that much., ignoring the current, short term, £2 singles.

But... 

My buses have shrunk from 6 gne and 2 ane per hour to 4 and 1, and the 4 have pretty poor spacing on the return journey. On Sunday, they've become sod all and I can no longer travel direct to the Metrocentre on any day of the week. 

Quite often, those buses don't run. 


Secondly, or maybe thirdly, so many shops have closed that there is less to tempt me. I can't even pck up any nice bits from Waitrose on my way to ES bus station.

And finally, sharing a bus with smelly people coughing all over me never was pleasant. That is definitely even less appealing than 3 years ago.

I see wor Rog was in the region today.

He managed to miss the dozens of wrong route branded GNE services but our hero did spot the 685 being run by an incorrectly branded bus and rightly chastised arriva on Twitter.

It’s almost like he’s averse to criticising the company that pays his no doubt lavish pension….

(12 Jan 2023, 11:32 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]I see wor Rog was in the region today.

He managed to miss the dozens of wrong route branded GNE services  but our hero did spot the 685 being run by an incorrectly branded bus and rightly chastised arriva on Twitter.

It’s almost like he’s averse to criticising the company that pays his no doubt lavish pension….

Just watched the Fat Boy Slim documentary and he even cropped up in that! 
Sort of. 

There was a fella from B&H who sat in a bus stop and talked about how they got drivers in at short-notice and got them to drive an impromtu night bus route, even if they didn't know the route. It was a case of getting to the end-point and getting back in to Brighton ASAP.
There was then a cut to a paper from the time and guess who was in there, being quoted and no-doubt having a moan? Our man Roger!

(07 Feb 2023, 10:53 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]There was a fella from B&H who sat in a bus stop and talked about how they got drivers in at short-notice and got them to drive an impromtu night bus route, even if they didn't know the route.

Fascinating.

Didn't realise you needed a PSV licence to work at Benson and Hedges but it's nice to see an employer going the extra mile to ensure workers can get to work on time.

(08 Feb 2023, 3:47 pm)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]Fascinating.

Didn't realise you needed a PSV licence to work at Benson and Hedges but it's nice to see an employer going the extra mile to ensure workers can get to work on time.

No, no. You misunderstand. 

It was to get the people who attended Fat Boy Slim home.

(08 Feb 2023, 6:59 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]No, no. You misunderstand. 

It was to get the people who attended Fat Boy Slim home.

Ah. I thought it was another tobacco company trying to enter the bus market. We already have Lambert and Butler Buses based in Stella although perhaps not for long as L&B are due to attend Hillcrest House soon. 

I don't think TC stands for Tobacco Commissioner either.

(08 Feb 2023, 8:08 pm)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]Ah. I thought it was another tobacco company trying to enter the bus market. We already have Lambert and Butler Buses based in Stella although perhaps not for long as L&B are due to attend Hillcrest House soon. 

I don't think TC stands for Tobacco Commissioner either.

No, although it would have been apt if they served Marlboro Crescent.

https://twitter.com/soult/status/1616404...bGdN62Qmgw&s=19

Keep meaning to share this. 
Wonder who drew inspiration from who? Did the banks inspire the bus operators or was it the other way around?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64651414

Interesting read about services in The Potteries and the impact it has on the population

(20 Feb 2023, 8:31 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64651414

Interesting read about services in The Potteries and the impact it has on the population

They are called Worst Group for a reason. The entire midlands region has been a joke for ages. Bad management. Simple as that

One thing I will say is ever since the 65 has gone back to every 30 minutes, every time I see it, it's quite busy, I passed one today around 14:57, just left Seaham at 14:45, passed it at the top of the Avenue in Seaham and it was rammed and standing. Would they ever bring back the later journeys because it seems it might be a decent money maker?

I think the 65 massively depends on the weather it gets good loading most days but when its hot its rammed and standing both ways

(09 Sep 2023, 7:11 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]I think the 65 massively depends on the weather it gets good loading most days but when its hot its rammed and standing both ways

Yes, much like the 50. It'll be rammed on red hot weekends like this, but other days it'll carry no more than a handful at any one time.

I think having seasonal services would work better than tampering with existing timetables, e.g. if there were a mass of folk wanting to travel from Hetton and Murton to Seaham, then run something direct and express. Even if it's just one bus operating on a two-hourly frequency.

(10 Sep 2023, 10:08 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Yes, much like the 50. It'll be rammed on red hot weekends like this, but other days it'll carry no more than a handful at any one time.

I think having seasonal services would work better than tampering with existing timetables, e.g. if there were a mass of folk wanting to travel from Hetton and Murton to Seaham, then run something direct and express. Even if it's just one bus operating on a two-hourly frequency.

I definetly think a Summer X50 would be needed, but the 65 not so, its pretty direct and under an hour journey aswell, but I think if anything the 65 could be increased to 20 mins during the summer time and possibily interwork with something like an X50.

X50>65>65>X50 I would say operated by CLS as they used to do the 65 aswell, and the 50 but its no longer there, so Washington would probs do it. 

Wouldn't hurt them much to trial it, like from 9am-6pm, or just weekends really, theyll have plenty of deckers over the summer

I thought the lack of social media presence was poor today, even if it’s not GNR day. Stagecoach had diversion tweets going out, nexus were on the ball but GNE had absolutely nothing

(10 Sep 2023, 7:22 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]I thought the lack of social media presence was poor today, even if it’s not GNR day. Stagecoach had diversion tweets going out, nexus were on the ball but GNE had absolutely nothing

Theyve had nothing for months

(10 Sep 2023, 7:22 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]I thought the lack of social media presence was poor today, even if it’s not GNR day. Stagecoach had diversion tweets going out, nexus were on the ball but GNE had absolutely nothing

Metro were on the ball. NEXUS were not. Compare them to West Yorkshire Metro and TfGM, who manage multimodal coverage "out of hours", all Nexus give a toss about is Metro when it comes to social media.

Metro customer service is great, they are on line from like 5am to 1am

Had to have another commute into our Newcastle office today. Every time I do this, I remember exactly why I rarely bother.

I left the office about 16.50 tonight and it wasn't until just before 19.30 that I walked through my front door. 2 hours 40 mins, for what should have been an hour at most.

First hiccup was that 6090, due at 16.58 from Market Street, decided to do a loop of the town and out without picking up passengers. Presumably regulation, due to being 15 minutes late, though arguably still could have picked up passengers and still been stuck coming down through the Bigg Market* The 17.11 56 then pulled in on time, boarded everyone, then had to tell us all to get off again because there was a fault.

Seeing as the 17.14 27 pulled in as I got off the 56, I ended up boarding that, with the intention of jumping at Heworth for a 4. That also got stuck at the Bigg Market* and we ended up 20 late at Heworth (6pm by now)

The 18.12 4 was also late, departing around 12L. Around 15L by the time we got to the Galleries. About a 15 minute wait later, and the 2A pulls in on time. A couple stops later and a short walk, and I finally make it home.

Now I get that bus operators have no real influence over traffic congestion, but they're also good at causing it. An expired 21 at the foot of John Dobson Street seemed to be causing chaos, with foremen from a nearby building site being left to manage 3-way traffic flow. They also can't do much about the Bigg Market, where there's a temporary traffic light, just down from what used to be the Pig and Whistle. That being said, it's complete and utter madness to continue to send buses through there, when they're sitting 20 minutes at a time.

If people don't have to put up with this rubbish, I don't know why they'd bother putting themselves through it.

(26 Oct 2023, 7:32 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Had to have another commute into our Newcastle office today. Every time I do this, I remember exactly why I rarely bother.

I left the office about 16.50 tonight and it wasn't until just before 19.30 that I walked through my front door. 2 hours 40 mins, for what should have been an hour at most.

First hiccup was that 6090, due at 16.58 from Market Street, decided to do a loop of the town and out without picking up passengers. Presumably regulation, due to being 15 minutes late, though arguably still could have picked up passengers and still been stuck coming down through the Bigg Market* The 17.11 56 then pulled in on time, boarded everyone, then had to tell us all to get off again because there was a fault.

Seeing as the 17.14 27 pulled in as I got off the 56, I ended up boarding that, with the intention of jumping at Heworth for a 4. That also got stuck at the Bigg Market* and we ended up 20 late at Heworth (6pm by now)

The 18.12 4 was also late, departing around 12L. Around 15L by the time we got to the Galleries. About a 15 minute wait later, and the 2A pulls in on time. A couple stops later and a short walk, and I finally make it home.

Now I get that bus operators have no real influence over traffic congestion, but they're also good at causing it. An expired 21 at the foot of John Dobson Street seemed to be causing chaos, with foremen from a nearby building site being left to manage 3-way traffic flow. They also can't do much about the Bigg Market, where there's a temporary traffic light, just down from what used to be the Pig and Whistle. That being said, it's complete and utter madness to continue to send buses through there, when they're sitting 20 minutes at a time.

If people don't have to put up with this rubbish, I don't know why they'd bother putting themselves through it.

See I think there should be more regulation with buses going NIS. They should pick up people to a certain point then go NIS and just do drop offs 

Also whats the service delivery centre trying to do by just leaving the issue, try and fix it get them, go via Grainger Street, then Collingswood St, then back on track over the High level bridge

(28 Oct 2023, 1:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Well yeah, because they're gonna have to spend an absolute fortune recruiting and training an entire workforce.

That implies they would want to keep running buses in the North East. It's just not financially viable!

(28 Oct 2023, 2:41 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]That implies they would want to keep running buses in the North East. It's just not financially viable!

Well it is. Or certain routes are. 
Probably a load more routes are viable too, if they existed and there was the commercial nous to do something about getting cars off the road (beyond tables and paint jobs).

The fact these buses are stuck in traffic, tells me there's more than enough people out there. Enough people to make the operators enough money to keep the shareholders happy.

530,000 people are living in County Durham alone.
345,000 in the Sunderland Council authority.
Almost 1 million people across just TWO conurbations dominated by GNE, yet they can't make any money...
Whack in another 200,000 in Gateshead, throw in a proportion of the population of Newcastle, North Tyneside and South Tyneside and it is pretty clear where the issue lies.

(28 Oct 2023, 8:21 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Well it is. Or certain routes are. 
Probably a load more routes are viable too, if they existed and there was the commercial nous to do something about getting cars off the road (beyond tables and paint jobs).

The fact these buses are stuck in traffic, tells me there's more than enough people out there. Enough people to make the operators enough money to keep the shareholders happy.

530,000 people are living in County Durham alone.
345,000 in the Sunderland Council authority.
Almost 1 million people across just TWO conurbations dominated by GNE, yet they can't make any money...
Whack in another 200,000 in Gateshead, throw in a proportion of the population of Newcastle, North Tyneside and South Tyneside and it is pretty clear where the issue lies.

Wouldn't say GNE dominate Durham and Sunderland mind, Stagecoach dominate Sunderland imo, and Arriva dominate the stronger corridors in Durham, Peterlee to Durham for example.

Gateshead should be GNE's gold mine, they dominate the Metro Centre and they dominate corridors which should have rapid transport but don't. Areas like Low Fell, Birtley, Felling, the QE etc. should be some of the strongest corridors in the North East, similar to the Stagecoach Newcastle services. Instead we have one corridor with constant investment (Durham Road) and everywhere else is limping around with buses from London which are life expired.

Not to mention Washington is one of the largest towns without a rail service at all, yet the bus services towards other areas without changing after travelling in the wrong direction are non existent and that's if it isn't subsidised.

The state of some routes routes which used to be flagship routes; the 10, 27, 49, 51, 52, 56, 58, 93, 94 and 97 in particular is poor, nothing appealing about them to use them - if they bother to run at all. Most have had downgrades in recent times nevermind upgrades.

(28 Oct 2023, 8:48 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Wouldn't say GNE dominate Durham and Sunderland mind, Stagecoach dominate Sunderland imo, and Arriva dominate the stronger corridors in Durham, Peterlee to Durham for example.

Gateshead should be GNE's gold mine, they dominate the Metro Centre and they dominate corridors which should have rapid transport but don't. Areas like Low Fell, Birtley, Felling, the QE etc. should be some of the strongest corridors in the North East, similar to the Stagecoach Newcastle services. Instead we have one corridor with constant investment (Durham Road) and everywhere else is limping around with buses from London which are life expired.

Not to mention Washington is one of the largest towns without a rail service at all, yet the bus services towards other areas without changing after travelling in the wrong direction are non existent and that's if it isn't subsidised.

The state of some routes routes which used to be flagship routes; the 10, 27, 49, 51, 52, 56, 58, 93, 94 and 97 in particular is poor, nothing appealing about them to use them - if they bother to run at all. Most have had downgrades in recent times nevermind upgrades.

Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations. 
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.

(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations. 
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.

Aye fair points but being honest I actually don't think Go North East do that bad in rural areas, I can say nice things sometimes... Consett and Stanley have decent enough networks imo.

It's the urban network that's a shambles. There's areas like Birtley where Durham Road has buses and the rest of the town literally has nothing, just something seriously wrong there. The urban areas should be the money makers aswell.

Washington is a right mess though. Very similar network to Cramlington really, yet every single house in Cramlington has a direct service to Newcastle and Blyth, arguably the two largest locations they want to go to without any detriment for those from Blyth with connections at Manor Walks to pretty much every other major town around in the area, in a few weeks at least 2 BPH. Washington, on the other hand doesn't have a commercial bus service to Birtley...

(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations. 
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.

You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...

(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...

Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families 

If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,

(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families 

If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,

Admit this is a bit off topic but not sure I agree with that, there's a fair amount of social housing / low car usage housing in the Portobello area which has an absymal service.

The 21 imo is way overbussed between Birtley and CLS aswell.

I'm not going to delve into the land of suggestions here but there's an 82 which serves all these areas and a 21 which is overbussed south of Birtley. Bolt the things together imo, then you'd have a decent destination at both ends of the route and open connections up to Washington across all of Birtley and connections to Newcastle in the opposite direction. It's the exact sort of network Arriva has up here pretty much. Not to mention the Low Fell to Washington connection which in turn then opens up the Low Fell to Sunderland connections, or Nissan, or Houghton Le Spring and so on.

The 21 is crying to be split up against like the Arriva 43/44/45, X10/X11 or X21/X22 imo which it was in the past. One thing I'll always give credit to Arriva is literally everywhere in Northumberland which they serve has a direct link to Newcastle.

(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map... 

Drawing things on a map with crayons would probably produce more success for the operators than they've had by sticking with the same old. 

You mention density, demographics etc and then there's the retail parks and a vast change in where people work. But the stubbornness or inability to connect the dots (nevermind lines) has played a huge part in the situation we see today.

---

(28 Oct 2023, 11:03 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ] Admit this is a bit off topic but not sure I agree with that, there's a fair amount of social housing / low car usage housing in the Portobello area which has an absymal service. 

The 21 imo is way overbussed between Birtley and CLS aswell.

I'm not going to delve into the land of suggestions here but there's an 82 which serves all these areas and a 21 which is overbussed south of Birtley. Bolt the things together imo, then you'd have a decent destination at both ends of the route and open connections up to Washington across all of Birtley and connections to Newcastle in the opposite direction. It's the exact sort of network Arriva has up here pretty much. Not to mention the Low Fell to Washington connection which in turn then opens up the Low Fell to Sunderland connections, or Nissan, or Houghton Le Spring and so on.

The 21 is crying to be split up against like the Arriva 43/44/45, X10/X11 or X21/X22 imo which it was in the past. One thing I'll always give credit to Arriva is literally everywhere in Northumberland which they serve has a direct link to Newcastle.

There's no social housing at all in Portobello (not that it's an actual place, it lends it's name to a road, industrial estate and a school). 
Car usage is high across Vigo (where I think you're referring to) and it's all private housing.

It's been awful since it was built in the 60s and 70s and other than the 23 that served the older part of the estate and variations of the 82/83 in recent years, there's not been a bus service that's penetrated the estate ever.

---

(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families 

If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,

A perfect example of operators not adapting to changing demographics or areas of development. 

The core Durham Road service has had the southern options cut, seen Northern options remain the same and areas off the main road (Barley Mow and Elizabethville) cut. 
Meanwhile those areas that are growing, see SFA.

(28 Oct 2023, 9:17 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Aye fair points but being honest I actually don't think Go North East do that bad in rural areas, I can say nice things sometimes... Consett and Stanley have decent enough networks imo.

Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes. 

The only thing I would change is the 47 one went to Castleside the other went to Shotley Bridge, and the X5 went to Castleside and X15 went to Shotley Bridge I think that would have been better. 

Aswell I was out early, and I was thinking with ISquared taking over Arriva, when Arriva goes in for pay negotations it could either go one way DB not wanting to talk at all, or they just give them whatever they want as theyll only be in control for maybe 6 months, however if they do the former and the drivers go out on a walk out, it might give GNE or SCNE (presumably GNE solve their dispute) to maybe purchase a depot from Arriva as they dont care theyve just sold the company, they dont want to pay their workers anymore, sell Belmont or Blyth/Ashington to GNE/SCNE make some money.

Also it is intresting that the amount of people learning to drive is reducing year upon year and that is going to have to lead to more use in public transport, that change hast to start now in crafting a network which is good, I would say pre-Sept 2021 changes GNE network was one of the best its ever been atleast in the past 10 years, they really tried, but I no one knew about it really. No one looks oooo lets see whats happening on Go North East, they need to market, I remember DAn sayign there was a big marketing push when Driver Shortage was over in the East Gateshead area, look how taht is now its only the EG Rider left.

And I think thats something else Branding, its unique to GNE yes, its perhaps not needed but it gives a route an identity, I cannot believe what happened to the Loops, there was no need to brand then East Gateshead Loop considering they spend half their time in west gateshead, same with the Orbits. Branding is something that should stay in my opinion but for it to work you need a solid network, just look at the failures with S&D.

For me most services should be branded...I know this is unpopular but I think the only services which should be unbranded is

25 (PVR 2)
34 (maybe, it does get busy)
41/41A (too many changes in NT)
99 (contracted runs 4 each day each way)
most few daily contracted services aswell
Why not brand the 701/702/703 - Chester-Le-Street Town Services.

Go back to old branding Simplicity, Silver Arrows, CityLink (58/57), no need for EG. Just the nromal Loop. for heaven sakes the Drifters flagship route has had no TLC for 10 years. Also the NTR what a joke "look out for a purple bus" theres more red and blue ones than purple, when theyre runnig that is, infact theyre the only service running and you see more coasters on them I mean FFS

But for branding to mean something you have focus on it, it means not allocating routes everywhere, it means sticking to spares being the 2019 lvieries buses only, no Prince Bishops popping up on the 700, or 60's spending more time in South tyneside. And the buses have to reliabile i mean just look at the state of the TVT, and there are going to be no new buses for years just old awful ex-london spec with rock hard seats, no USBs or anything, nothing to make people feel a reason to get the bus, "oh i can get a charge" "oh we can get a table" and I know that was one of my reasons to get the bus, but especially with the unreability of the fleet and the ex-london buses which are awful inside and wouldnt want to go on them.