North East Buses

(11 Aug 2021, 11:54 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Just out of sheer curiosity.
How long is the bus journey (including connections) vs the uber?

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Bus with connections is 1hr 13 
uber is 18-21 minutes

(11 Aug 2021, 11:08 am)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]I know it's a seperate issue but the bus was pretty rammed and only 2 or 3 people were wearing masks which was a little offputting

For the 2 days a week I'm in the office I'm gonna stick to Uber.

I think you've been unlucky there. I've used buses quite a bit since July 19th (given that my 2nd jab was brought forward) and I've not really noticed any real difference in the amount of people wearing face coverings. I'd still say more do than don't. The only time I personally haven't, is if I've been the only passenger on the bus. If someone else boards, I'll quickly put a covering on.

(11 Aug 2021, 11:51 am)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]It's amazing how seriously things like WiFi and plug sockets can be taken by some passengers, I've even seen passengers kicking off with drivers when the plugs don't work especially when the passenger think the driver is just being awkward and not turning them on to annoy the passengers, will admit in the past I have been annoyed when I'm short on data or battery life and a basic spec Bus turns up instead of the advertised bus with these features.

Getting people out of cars now is always going to be a struggle as the bus is seen as not good value alternative option due to high priced fares and long indirect journey times.

I don't condone customers 'kicking off', but I think when something is so heavily advertised as being part of the product, then they have the right to feel aggrieved if they're not provided as advertised. Just as you would if you ordered a meal in McDonalds, and they sent it over without the fries and chips.  

I agree its a mixture. Some operators are putting a lot of good work into fares, but its not tackling the problem of inconvenient routes and journey times.

(11 Aug 2021, 11:57 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just as an illustration of the points made, here's a quick snapshot of some of the vehicles on 'premium' (Sapphire for ANE, X-Lines for GNE) NE routes at present/at some stage today:

ANE:
43/44/45: 1574, 1581, 1582, 1583, 7562
X21/22: 4664, 7411, 7446, 7484, and a couple of MAX E400s. 
22/23/24: 1476, 1579, 1580
X3/X4: Various Temsas and standard Pulsars

GNE:
X1: 6099, 6168, 6169
X15: 6919
X20: 5486, 8342
X21: 6142, 6173
X30/31/45/46/70/71: 9056, 5441, 5409

That's about 5 minutes of having a look at Bustimes (with the usual caveat there). Appreciate there are day to day challenges, but it isn't a great look - particularly in some cases where the allocation should be brand new buses, having that many off isn't a good sign.

I agree. There's always going to be day to day challenges, but it goes back to the 'any bus will do' mentality. Like Ambassador was yesterday, I'd be a bit miffed if 6168/69 turned up for an X1 into the town, and I'd likely wait for the next one. The average customer isn't going to do that, so that'll be their impression of the operator.

It undermines the branding ethos if you've got Voyager and corporate branded Omnidekkas running around on the 21 too plus the lack of tables, charging, next stops etc - especially in tourist staycation season. I've never seen so many people at the Angel than I've seen lately.

(11 Aug 2021, 11:57 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just as an illustration of the points made, here's a quick snapshot of some of the vehicles on 'premium' (Sapphire for ANE, X-Lines for GNE) NE routes at present/at some stage today:

ANE:
43/44/45: 1574, 1581, 1582, 1583, 7562
X21/22: 4664, 7411, 7446, 7484, and a couple of MAX E400s. 
22/23/24: 1476, 1579, 1580
X3/X4: Various Temsas and standard Pulsars

GNE:
X1: 6099, 6168, 6169
X15: 6919
X20: 5486, 8342
X21: 6142, 6173
X30/31/45/46/70/71: 9056, 5441, 5409

That's about 5 minutes of having a look at Bustimes (with the usual caveat there). Appreciate there are day to day challenges, but it isn't a great look - particularly in some cases where the allocation should be brand new buses, having that many off isn't a good sign.

But isn't this norm in the summer months whilst Schools are off to carry out important maintenance as I recall Dan mentioned this a week or 2 ago in relation to Go North East.

I can't say the same for Arriva as nothing really is ever allocated to the correct route.

(11 Aug 2021, 6:08 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]But isn't this norm in the summer months whilst Schools are off to carry out important maintenance as I recall Dan mentioned this a week or 2 ago in relation to Go North East.

I can't say the same for Arriva as nothing really is ever allocated to the correct route.

There’s an unusually high number of StreetDecks and E400s off service at the moment as the DVLA revoked the Covid-19 MOT extension (of one year) on all the new buses received last year.


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(11 Aug 2021, 6:15 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]There’s an unusually high number of StreetDecks and E400s off service at the moment as the DVLA revoked the Covid-19 MOT extension (of one year) on all the new buses received last year.


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So were they initially granted the year but it was taken away, or is it just they weren't eligible in the first place?

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(11 Aug 2021, 6:18 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]So were they initially granted the year but it was taken away, or is it just they weren't eligible in the first place?

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The former.


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(11 Aug 2021, 6:08 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]But isn't this norm in the summer months whilst Schools are off to carry out important maintenance as I recall Dan mentioned this a week or 2 ago in relation to Go North East.

Hence 'day to day' issues in my initial post. Let's not kid ourselves though, these sorts of issues happen with all operators all year around. Arguably it being 'the norm' in the summer months is even worse, as this is when you're more likely to be getting leisure passengers who you want to have a good first impression.

The fact of the matter is that, unless an entire depot has vehicles of the same spec, there will always be the chance of customers being disappointed. Their car isn't going to suddenly be replaced by an 18 year old banger one day, the bus has every chance to be.

With arguably the youngest fleet in the North East combined with the lack of branding and promises like 'USB and Plug Sockets', 'Tables', or 'Free WiFi; a case could be made for GCT being the best bus operator in the North East I suppose.

(12 Aug 2021, 8:26 am)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]With arguably the youngest fleet in the North East combined with the lack of branding and promises like 'USB and Plug Sockets', 'Tables', or 'Free WiFi; a case could be made for GCT being the best bus operator in the North East I suppose.

Haha, they certainly do what they it says on the tin.

When they get it right they provide a bus with wheels and seats that takes passengers from point A to B, which is the whole aim here.

(12 Aug 2021, 8:34 am)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Haha, they certainly do what they it says on the tin.

When they get it right they provide a bus with wheels and seats that takes passengers from point A to B, which is the whole aim here.

Under promise and over deliver is quite often the key (no pun intended) to great customer service.

I think this is quite an interesting debate which covers a multitude of areas under the umbrella of reversing passenger decline. Firstly, keeping the passengers you have and growing that market then secondly attracting car users. There are also other aspects but from what I've seen, those two areas seem to be the most targeted (see rear end adverts on buses relating to taking the stress out of parking etc).

I am a driver for one of the big companies but I was also a big bus user precovid. I have since became more dependant on my car (which I share with my wife) but in the past couple of weeks I've been using public transport (buses and Metro) and I've been using them as a parent (alone) with 2 kids with one of them in a pram.

Journey times and frequency puts me off bus use especially on Sundays. For example from my house to the Metrocentre I have the following options:

Car (with free parking) 35 - 45 mins depending on traffic and route taken

Walk to Metro at Seaburn (15 - 20 mins), change to bus at Gateshead and then Gateshead to Metrocentre by bus (45 mins to 1 hour depending on how fast the kids walk)

Walk to Southwick Green (15 mins), 56 to Gateshead then change onto another bus (1 hour 15 approx)

Previously I could have got a bus direct to the Metrocentre from Southwick, the X88 albeit on weekends and Bank Holidays only and that took around 50 mins depending on traffic plus a walk to the green.

Changing buses mid route (whether this be a main Interchange point or a random street) puts me off public transport especially when I have the kids with me. When I'm alone, I don't mind but it's not ideal. I understand that you cannot have direct buses to every location, I feel that a bus to the Metrocentre which is a main shopping location is a missed opportunity. That said, GNE struggled with Sunderland to Newcastle expresses but Stagecoach seems to be keeping on top of the X24. When the Metro finally gets its new trains would passengers make the switch for a quicker (and more environmentally friendly) journey?

Bus journeys need to be indirect in order to stop and pick up passengers. You couldn't run a bus to Newcastle from Sunderland with 1 stop and each terminus however that's what a competing car would be. Bus journeys could ve speeded up with more bus lanes, bus lane enforcement and traffic signal priority of which that is up to local councils and highway departments. Buses can be the best ever but if they are stuck I traffic like the car then what's the point?

From the comments above regarding features on vehicles. Another great gimic however if a bus turns up without those features on a route which should have them, then the product (bus journey) isn't what the passenger expected. What can be done? Free tickets to entice passengers back for another try or half price fares? If I go to a hotel and my room is supposed to have X, Y and Z facing it doesn't, I complain and get a refund (partial or full). I'd never complain if a bus never had working wifi or plug sockets but why advertise it for a service if there's a chance it won't be there? Apart from having vehicles of the same specification at a depot, there's nothing that you can do here. First impressions count and it can put people off if its not what they expected. In a car you have (normally as standard) air con, radio or other entertainment services, comfortable seats with decent leg room and a clean vehicle interior. Can the same be said for public transport? Whilst on the subject of vehicle features, whatever happened to 'Gold Standards from GNE. I'm sure you were supposed to get a refund if the bus was late over a certain period of time. Arriva Sapphire also had high standards when introduced.

Finally, I will discuss something highlighted in recent comments - mask wearing. I know what the government stance is but different companies have taken different stances. Metro has made face coverings a condition of carriage however this isnt enforced. I very rarely use the Metro but have done so quite often in the past 2 weeks. I've noticed cleaners on trains and in stations and none have been wearing face coverings. Face coverings on trains has been hit and miss. The ages of people not wearing them varies too. On buses I have seen a significant amount of people not wearing them (noticeably less than before). In a car, no mask is needed. I am not here to start a debate on mask wearing and why people do or do not wear them but I think potential passengers need to be asked if they are happy to wear a mask or if it puts them off using public transport (I recently got an interview from Nexus on this very subject).

Covid has devastated the public transport industry and the 'avoid public transport' message has probably scared off many people. Maybe this was a wake up call the industry needed to spark change (if your looking for something good to come from this)?

Some interesting thoughts there. I'm the sort of user the industry needs to attract, and to be perfectly honest if I wasn't an enthusiast I'd rarely get the bus. I'd particularly echo your comments on gimmicks. Industry wide, things like wifi seems to be viewed as innovation. Sure, it's nice to have. But price, journey time and reliability are more important to me personally.

A similar trip to the metrocentre for us as a family is too easy to make by car. 10 minutes there, free parking, what's not to like? Before the summer fare offers, we'd be looking at a family day ticket (£10?) before we even started. And that's before we take into account sitting on the bus for what feels like an age. Part of the problem round these parts, is that years ago one main service replaced 4 mini bus services. With the resulting increase in journey times.

With the current model, I don't see any easy answers unfortunately. Car ownership is on the whole too cheap, and the funding on offer in the national bus strategy is woefully short. Things like road pricing, which have the potential to make a real difference, are still pie in the sky in my opinion.

The last two days have been a bit of an experience for me, having spent two consecutive days as a commuter after 18 months. I think it's fair to say that things aren't always as they seem, so I've written up my experience here: https://www.busesandbeyond.co.uk/2021/08...commuters/

Would welcome any thoughts.

(14 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]The last two days have been a bit of an experience for me, having spent two consecutive days as a commuter after 18 months. I think it's fair to say that things aren't always as they seem, so I've written up my experience here: https://www.busesandbeyond.co.uk/2021/08...commuters/

Would welcome any thoughts.

I think I agree with most things you said there, particularly around communicating delays.

One thing I hate about the GNE app is that services just 'drop off' the app when they're cancelled, and they don't actually tell you if they're running late.
As bad as the Arriva app is, I appreciate that it actually tells you if a bus is running late.

(14 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]The last two days have been a bit of an experience for me, having spent two consecutive days as a commuter after 18 months. I think it's fair to say that things aren't always as they seem, so I've written up my experience here: https://www.busesandbeyond.co.uk/2021/08...commuters/

Would welcome any thoughts.

Having used a somewhat unreliable service to commute a few years ago, I'd say your comments on service updates and apps are spot on.

In my case it was First Aberdeen's service 8, which once or twice a week would go from "5 mins" to "6 mins", then 7, 8 etc, and one time all the way up to 18 mins. Now, I'm not exactly sure how a bus goes back in time when I'm stood still at the same stop. I'd possibly understand once, if the driver had missed a section of route and looped back, but regardless it isn't exactly reassuring. These days I generally use bustimes as it's usually pretty spot on, and I don't bother with either the GNE or ANE app when in the North East as honestly, I find bustimes easier to use than either of them - it provides easy access to the full timetable, I can see what bus is coming for me, and it allows me to plan across operators.

For all the talk of "NEbus" etc, it is disappointing that you still have to have 3 separate apps to even think about planning a trip that includes the big 3 operators in the NE (or be familiar with bustimes, which the general public tend not to be). 

Your point about "some operators doing next to nothing" is also interesting. When making bus travel attractive is talked about, I think some folk picture huge 100+ bus orders to sort out the current situation in certain NE fleets, but realistically a bit of initiative such as GNEs £1 evening ticket, or better communication/advertising of services is a pretty good start (and is generally along the lines of what is actually meant). It costs nothing, relatively, to do a bit of promotion - especially for your key services.

(14 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]The last two days have been a bit of an experience for me, having spent two consecutive days as a commuter after 18 months. I think it's fair to say that things aren't always as they seem, so I've written up my experience here: https://www.busesandbeyond.co.uk/2021/08...commuters/

Would welcome any thoughts.

Very well written and many of us will share your frustrations and it really is that difficulty in convincing people that buses (and in some cases the passengers on that bus) are a viable alternative - the same really applies to the metro too which just seems to be a constant stream of bad news and sassy Twitter replies from the metro account. A bit like GNEs used to be.

The free magpie over day initiative tomorrow (which is more borne out of Newcastle city council somehow forgetting about football) is a positive one. If you can convince those match goers to take that journey weekly and then maybe coax them onto buses for leisure journeys.

would I be using Uber if I was working 5 days a week at an office, no, but hybrid working is changing that for me and many others. My company used to do travel loans and they’ll continue to offer those but they’ve also started offering rider share discounts. The reason for this is colleagues tell us they don’t feel safe on public transport and those mixed messages you point out don’t help. Arguably an Uber driver probably has lower cleanliness standards than a bus but that’s not the perception. 

I also don’t think you can use the stick approach with car drivers because quite frankly the infrastructure isn’t there and despite the best efforts of Gateshead Council to deter cars, it’s busier than ever through traffic light city.

Best way to reverse passenger decline is to put services back into the estates, rather than just the village centres or Main Roads. I can remember the GNE Metroriders weaving through Washington.

(14 Aug 2021, 9:14 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote [ -> ]Best way to reverse passenger decline is to put services back into the estates, rather than just the village centres or Main Roads. I can remember the GNE Metroriders weaving through Washington.

Is it really?

For every comment that I see that says buses should go back through the estates again, I see others that say the reason why they don’t use the bus is because they’re too slow.

There’s no way the network can cater for everyone’s preferences, clearly.


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(14 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]The last two days have been a bit of an experience for me, having spent two consecutive days as a commuter after 18 months. I think it's fair to say that things aren't always as they seem, so I've written up my experience here: https://www.busesandbeyond.co.uk/2021/08...commuters/

Would welcome any thoughts.

Cant argue with facts.
You're just one passenger inconvenienced. I'd hazard a guess you're not in a unique position either.
If an enthusiast is inconvenienced and potentially discouraged, then I dread to think of the impact on an elastic passenger.

(14 Aug 2021, 9:20 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Is it really?

For every comment that I see that says buses should go back through the estates again, I see others that say the reason why they don’t use the bus is because they’re too slow.

There’s no way the network can cater for everyone’s preferences, clearly.


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it’s probably not in a simple term no. GNE and the others really need to focus on getting the basics right. It doesn’t help that nexus and whatever bunch Cllr Gannon heads up are so limited in their thinking and approach. The public transport network in the north east and particularly Tyne and Wear is woefully fragmented and with that lot in charge it won’t change.

(14 Aug 2021, 10:04 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]it’s probably not in a simple term no. GNE and the others really need to focus on getting the basics right. It doesn’t help that nexus and whatever bunch Cllr Gannon heads up are so limited in their thinking and approach. The public transport network in the north east and particularly Tyne and Wear is woefully fragmented and with that lot in charge it won’t change.

What needs to happen is for every local authority in the region to actually put in place bus priority measures that make a significant dent into current journey times. A 100m stretch of bus lane here and there really isnt going to cut it. If the bus was reliable, fast and dependable - most people wouldn't really care about the Wifi/Next Stop/Livery etc. They would choose the bus due to speed and access.

Unfortunately, none of local authorities have a backbone to do this as they are too scared to lose the political vote that comes from the car owner. Lets hope the National Bus Strategy calls them out on it, as I understand it, the biggest and boldest ideas are most likely to be funded first (so they cannot claim money will be an issue).

Another issue for me are Clean Air Zones. Why do buses need to be Euro 6 but cars don't? Makes no sense. The bus operators should be incentivised to upgrade (better BSOG rates etc) but the car should be simply banned from core areas of the city (generally speaking, appreciate the numerous variables at play).

(14 Aug 2021, 9:14 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote [ -> ]Best way to reverse passenger decline is to put services back into the estates, rather than just the village centres or Main Roads. I can remember the GNE Metroriders weaving through Washington.

That'll never happen again, the operator would have to run 50% more buses just to pick up 20% extra passengers. 

When I started at Arriva they had numerous minibuses plowing through estates whilst the big buses that went past the outskirts of said estates were carrying fresh air, the penny finally dropped at the silliness of doing this around about 2010ish........

(15 Aug 2021, 10:05 am)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]What needs to happen is for every local authority in the region to actually put in place bus priority measures that make a significant dent into current journey times. A 100m stretch of bus lane here and there really isnt going to cut it. If the bus was reliable, fast and dependable - most people wouldn't really care about the Wifi/Next Stop/Livery etc. They would choose the bus due to speed and access.

Unfortunately, none of local authorities have a backbone to do this as they are too scared to lose the political vote that comes from the car owner. Lets hope the National Bus Strategy calls them out on it, as I understand it, the biggest and boldest ideas are most likely to be funded first (so they cannot claim money will be an issue).

Another issue for me are Clean Air Zones. Why do buses need to be Euro 6 but cars don't? Makes no sense. The bus operators should be incentivised to upgrade (better BSOG rates etc) but the car should be simply banned from core areas of the city (generally speaking, appreciate the numerous variables at play).

You can stick as many bus lanes and priority measures as you want. Unless the bus goes where the people are going, bus lanes are pretty much pointless.
Banning cars from city centres, isn't going to do anything other than encourage car users to go elsewhere.

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(15 Aug 2021, 10:27 am)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]That'll never happen again, the operator would have to run 50% more buses just to pick up 20% extra passengers. 

When I started at Arriva they had numerous minibuses plowing through estates whilst the big buses that went past the outskirts of said estates were carrying fresh air, the penny finally dropped at the silliness of doing this around about 2010ish........

Were those minibuses taking the residents of the estates to places the residents needed to go? Or where the operators thought they wanted to be.

Having a minibus go from an estate to Whitley Bay, when residents are travelling to drop the kids off and then heading in the opposite direction, to get to work - was never the brightest idea.

(15 Aug 2021, 10:41 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]You can stick as many bus lanes and priority measures as you want. Unless the bus goes where the people are going, bus lanes are pretty much pointless.
Banning cars from city centres, isn't going to do anything other than encourage car users to go elsewhere.

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Were those minibuses taking the residents of the estates to places the residents needed to go? Or where the operators thought they wanted to be.

Having a minibus go from an estate to Whitley Bay, when residents are travelling to drop the kids off and then heading in the opposite direction, to get to work - was never the brightest idea.

Mostly pensioners into the town centre for their bread and milk.

(15 Aug 2021, 10:53 am)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]Mostly pensioners into the town centre for their bread and milk.

Exactly. 
Easier cancelling it, than adapt it to suit the needs of the market.
No wonder it carried fresh air.

(15 Aug 2021, 10:41 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]You can stick as many bus lanes and priority measures as you want. Unless the bus goes where the people are going, bus lanes are pretty much pointless.

Bus lanes are pretty pointless when a council changes the road layout to such an extent where it becomes more hassle for a bus to use the bus lane rather than the roads the bus lane is meant to avoid.

Gateshead Council, in particular, must be singled out for this. The idea of the Centrelink was to allow the X66 to run traffic-free from the Teams into the centre of Gateshead. Now, with the closure of Hills Street and the bottom of West Street to buses, and the multitude of traffic lights which stand in the way between the bottom of Prince Consort Road and Pipewellgate, why would any driver driving the X66 use Centrelink towards the Metrocentre? It's easier and quicker to use Askew Road. It's slightly better heading into Gateshead, I guess, but it used to be a lot easier when buses coming from the direction of the High Level Bridge were allowed to use West Street and filter into the Interchange from Prince Consort Road. As an alleged bus priority measure, it's an absolute mess as it stands now.

Whenever you see council chiefs such as Martin Gannon (or whomever) standing with directors of bus companies such as Martijn Gilbert (or whomever) announcing the latest initiative to encourage people to use public transport, it's pretty hard to take whatever they say seriously as we've heard it all before. It always comes across as a cynical publicity stunt to raise the public profile of each without anyone actually committing or delivering anything of note. It doesn't convince me, it probably won't convince anyone else either.

(15 Aug 2021, 12:40 pm)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]Bus lanes are pretty pointless when a council changes the road layout to such an extent where it becomes more hassle for a bus to use the bus lane rather than the roads the bus lane is meant to avoid.

Gateshead Council, in particular, must be singled out for this. The idea of the Centrelink was to allow the X66 to run traffic-free from the Teams into the centre of Gateshead. Now, with the closure of Hills Street and the bottom of West Street to buses, and the multitude of traffic lights which stand in the way between the bottom of Prince Consort Road and Pipewellgate, why would any driver driving the X66 use Centrelink towards the Metrocentre? It's easier and quicker to use Askew Road. It's slightly better heading into Gateshead, I guess, but it used to be a lot easier when buses coming from the direction of the High Level Bridge were allowed to use West Street and filter into the Interchange from Prince Consort Road. As an alleged bus priority measure, it's an absolute mess as it stands now.

Whenever you see council chiefs such as Martin Gannon (or whomever) standing with directors of bus companies such as Martijn Gilbert (or whomever) announcing the latest initiative to encourage people to use public transport, it's pretty hard to take whatever they say seriously as we've heard it all before. It always comes across as a cynical publicity stunt to raise the public profile of each without anyone actually committing or delivering anything of note. It doesn't convince me, it probably won't convince anyone else either.

Good points well made, all of which highlight the apparent lack of communication, foresight or long term thinking - between bodies seemingly desperate to work together.

These photoshoots might allow for self-congratulatory back pats, but like you - they don't convince me either.

(15 Aug 2021, 1:43 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]These photoshoots might allow for self-congratulatory back pats, but like you - they don't convince me either.

There must be some sort of competition of how many buzzwords they can fit into each new press release. Lots of those buzzwords are similar to those which this government have been using for years, and people tend not to believe a word they say either.

Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving

Obviously, as a car user, I should declare an interest in opposing such a measure, but I don't think the solution as to how you might encourage people to use public transport lies in pricing motorists off the road in an attempt to force them to switch. For me, the choice should remain with the user otherwise cars are destined to become the preserve of the rich and powerful. Obviously there is a ecological argument to be had against motor-vehicles powered by fossil fuels but what happens if (or when) the majority of motor-vehicles are powered by electricity or other means. Is it fair to penalise motorists if that ever becomes the case?

Thoughts?