So probs about 80% of the funding for London and 20% for rest of England then?
Hope the NE bid for some, probs end up at Newcastle/Gateshead though.
(04 Apr 2021, 5:00 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]So probs about 80% of the funding for London and 20% for rest of England then?
Hope the NE bid for some, probs end up at Newcastle/Gateshead though.
It's only in major cities that zero emissions buses make sense though, until we start seeing more hydrogen electric vehicles.
Battery electric vehicles just don't have the range to be used on the majority of routes that venture outside the city
(04 Apr 2021, 5:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]It's only in major cities that zero emissions buses make sense though, until we start seeing more hydrogen electric vehicles.
Battery electric vehicles just don't have the range to be used on the majority of routes that venture outside the city
I see First Glasgow have just ordered 126 electric vehicles under the Scottish Government scheme.
https://www.evbus.co.uk/first-bus-orders...electrics/
(04 Apr 2021, 5:00 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]So probs about 80% of the funding for London and 20% for rest of England then?
Hope the NE bid for some, probs end up at Newcastle/Gateshead though.
It does not apply to London!
Quote from ZEBRA guidance -
"we ask for bids to be written and submitted by English local transport authorities outside London (i.e. counties, unitaries, combined authorities)"
Quaylink or Durham Park & Ride would probably be a good shout for funding. The contract for the latter is to be renewed next year I believe.
(05 Apr 2021, 9:54 am)busmanT wrote [ -> ]It does not apply to London!
Quote from ZEBRA guidance -
"we ask for bids to be written and submitted by English local transport authorities outside London (i.e. counties, unitaries, combined authorities)"
Oops must of misread it! Surprised at that
Sunderland Connect could be a shot for electric vehicles, wonder if GNE will bid to try and make half of Riverside depot Electric vehicles.
(05 Apr 2021, 3:21 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Quaylink or Durham Park & Ride would probably be a good shout for funding. The contract for the latter is to be renewed next year I believe.
The Durham P&R is ran by minibuses isn't it? They've restricted it to full size buses and deckers only.
Personally can't see GNE getting any funding because of them winning the funding for Voltra in the earlier investments unless it's just a few buses so Quaylink could be a shout. Think they'll target a corridor maybe Gosforth High Street (Arriva / GNE), Coast Road (Arriva / Stagecoach) or Byker / Blackett Street (Stagecoach) because of high emissions on them all if they went for Tyneside.
(05 Apr 2021, 4:13 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]The Durham P&R is ran by minibuses isn't it? They've restricted it to full size buses and deckers only.
Personally can't see GNE getting any funding because of them winning the funding for Voltra in the earlier investments and it'll be targeting on some corridor maybe Gosforth High Street (Arriva), Coast Road (Arriva / Stagecoach) or Byker / Blackett Street (Stagecoach) because of high emissions on them all if they go for Tyneside.
The infrastructure is one of the largest costs associated with the procurement of electric buses.
To get more 'bang for your buck', it may be that because Go North East already have the infrastructure (and are set up to accommodate up to 30 electric buses), that they could stand a better chance. In addition to the current nine, Go North East already have funding for a further nine buses, so this would take them to 18 of the 30 capacity they currently have for electric buses at Riverside.
A route like Go North East's Q3 has a PVR of 9, so a spare would be ordered, and this would take them to a capacity of 28/30 for electric buses at Riverside. It would also tick your box for Gosforth High Street.
I cannot see Arriva North East being particularly interested in this funding - don't forget that this funding only covers 75% of the difference between a diesel bus and an electric bus: so if a diesel single-deck bus is £160k, and an electric bus is closer to the £300k mark, the company would still be investing c.£200k per bus themselves. We're all aware of the reasons for the alleged lack of investment at Arriva, and I cannot see this funding changing things.
I do however agree with Adrian that it would be great for the Durham Park & Ride tender, which is up for renewal next year, to stipulate the use of electric buses (regardless of whether this funding could be used for that or not).
(05 Apr 2021, 4:13 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]The Durham P&R is ran by minibuses isn't it? They've restricted it to full size buses and deckers only.
Its minibus because that's what the current contract stipulates, but there's absolutely no reason why full size buses could not be used on the service.
Its worth noting that Policy 21 of the County Durham plan states:
"5.228 It is very important that we plan to enable the adoption of alternative fuel vehicles and also actively discourage the number and frequency of single occupancy car journeys through the provision of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles and car sharing bays. Electric vehicle charging infrastructure and car sharing bays will be required in the Parking and Accessibility SPD. We will also support taxi and bus operators to switch to alternative fuel vehicles by identifying and helping with suitable funding opportunities."
So I'd be extremely surprised if the next P&R contract isn't for an all-electric service.
(05 Apr 2021, 4:23 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]The infrastructure is one of the largest costs associated with the procurement of electric buses.
To get more 'bang for your buck', it may be that because Go North East already have the infrastructure (and are set up to accommodate up to 30 electric buses), that they could stand a better chance. In addition to the current nine, Go North East already have funding for a further nine buses, so this would take them to 18 of the 30 capacity they currently have for electric buses at Riverside.
A route like Go North East's Q3 has a PVR of 9, so a spare would be ordered, and this would take them to a capacity of 28/30 for electric buses at Riverside. It would also tick your box for Gosforth High Street.
I cannot see Arriva North East being particularly interested in this funding - don't forget that this funding only covers 75% of the difference between a diesel bus and an electric bus: so if a diesel single-deck bus is £160k, and an electric bus is closer to the £300k mark, the company would still be investing c.£200k per bus themselves. We're all aware of the reasons for the alleged lack of investment at Arriva, and I cannot see this funding changing things.
I do however agree with Adrian that it would be great for the Durham Park & Ride tender, which is up for renewal next year, to stipulate the use of electric buses (regardless of whether this funding could be used for that or not).
Some good points made, I literally just changed the post there to add in about the Quaylink because of Gosforth High Street and I agree with you tbh. Guessing you's will be looking at getting some of the money (obviously don't expect a reply as you can't).
Fair points about Arriva ngl I'm not sure how strict the funding is in terms of the infrastructure is but I was thinking they might milk it to get some money for their new depot which is supposedly replacing Jesmond / Blyth especially Blyth which has plans to be demolished. Believe Sandy Lane / Cramlington have been rumoured. Whatever they want to do they'll need to invest at some point as they can't keep dragging 15 year old Enviro's and 12 year old Gemini's on frontline services forever.
Agreed with the Durham P&R though, the cathedral service would be a good shout for it aswell when it comes round for renewal.
(05 Apr 2021, 4:44 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Its minibus because that's what the current contract stipulates, but there's absolutely no reason why full size buses could not be used on the service.
Its worth noting that Policy 21 of the County Durham plan states: "5.228 It is very important that we plan to enable the adoption of alternative fuel vehicles and also actively discourage the number and frequency of single occupancy car journeys through the provision of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles and car sharing bays. Electric vehicle charging infrastructure and car sharing bays will be required in the Parking and Accessibility SPD. We will also support taxi and bus operators to switch to alternative fuel vehicles by identifying and helping with suitable funding opportunities."
So I'd be extremely surprised if the next P&R contract isn't for an all-electric service.
Yeah valid points tbf, wasn't too sure on the service whether there was any points where they'd struggle with anything bigger. I've never used it before tbh. It's definitely a service which would make sense being electric.
Just as a side note, while the ZEBRA document doesn't define minibuses/single deck size the DfT generally define a small PSV as up to and including 22 passenger seats, with a large PSV being 23 seats or more. The document doesn't state full size single deck, just single/double deck and that minibuses/coaches are excluded. If the same criteria applies then the 9.2m electric Solos, equivalent to the existing Durham P&R fleet, should be covered.
(05 Apr 2021, 4:23 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]The infrastructure is one of the largest costs associated with the procurement of electric buses.
To get more 'bang for your buck', it may be that because Go North East already have the infrastructure (and are set up to accommodate up to 30 electric buses), that they could stand a better chance. In addition to the current nine, Go North East already have funding for a further nine buses, so this would take them to 18 of the 30 capacity they currently have for electric buses at Riverside.
A route like Go North East's Q3 has a PVR of 9, so a spare would be ordered, and this would take them to a capacity of 28/30 for electric buses at Riverside. It would also tick your box for Gosforth High Street.
I cannot see Arriva North East being particularly interested in this funding - don't forget that this funding only covers 75% of the difference between a diesel bus and an electric bus: so if a diesel single-deck bus is £160k, and an electric bus is closer to the £300k mark, the company would still be investing c.£200k per bus themselves. We're all aware of the reasons for the alleged lack of investment at Arriva, and I cannot see this funding changing things.
I do however agree with Adrian that it would be great for the Durham Park & Ride tender, which is up for renewal next year, to stipulate the use of electric buses (regardless of whether this funding could be used for that or not).
When will we see GNE use this funding?, is there a limit on how long GNE can hold on to the funding?
(05 Apr 2021, 4:13 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]The Durham P&R is ran by minibuses isn't it? They've restricted it to full size buses and deckers only.
Personally can't see GNE getting any funding because of them winning the funding for Voltra in the earlier investments unless it's just a few buses so Quaylink could be a shout. Think they'll target a corridor maybe Gosforth High Street (Arriva / GNE), Coast Road (Arriva / Stagecoach) or Byker / Blackett Street (Stagecoach) because of high emissions on them all if they went for Tyneside.
It's actually local authorities that have to do the bidding, working with the operators and the scheme appears to be written with conversion of significant geographic areas in mind.
As Dan says, the cost of the infrastructure for a handful of buses is very high so Durham Park & Ride might be out of the question if it's still run by the current operator.
It only covers 75% of the difference in cost between a diesel bus and an electric bus so operators have to be in a position to invest very significant sums of money.
(05 Apr 2021, 4:44 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Its minibus because that's what the current contract stipulates, but there's absolutely no reason why full size buses could not be used on the service.
So I'd be extremely surprised if the next P&R contract isn't for an all-electric service.
If I recall correctly, I was reading some documents regarding both the Drive at Mount Oswald and the new University accommodation up there. One of them (can't remember which) were awarded planning permission on the condition that they contribute financially towards larger vehicles operating on the PR2, so definitely not unlikely that we'll see bigger buses on the park and ride in the future. Similarly, if Scarlet Band were to continue operation of the contract, you would think the pink bus would be another contender for larger/electric vehicles - especially given that the new uni accommodation is self-catered and there are no shops up that end of Durham.
(05 Apr 2021, 6:54 pm)peter wrote [ -> ]If I recall correctly, I was reading some documents regarding both the Drive at Mount Oswald and the new University accommodation up there. One of them (can't remember which) were awarded planning permission on the condition that they contribute financially towards larger vehicles operating on the PR2, so definitely not unlikely that we'll see bigger buses on the park and ride in the future. Similarly, if Scarlet Band were to continue operation of the contract, you would think the pink bus would be another contender for larger/electric vehicles - especially given that the new uni accommodation is self-catered and there are no shops up that end of Durham.
Every time I've used the park and ride the buses were always fairly busy, so I can imagine with things the way they are at the minute they'll be basically at capacity all the time once things reopen
Buses ordered through the ZEBRA scheme should be in a black and white livery lol
(10 Apr 2021, 6:18 pm)Metroline1511 wrote [ -> ]Buses ordered through the ZEBRA scheme should be in a black and white livery lol
Can't see that going down too well if any get awarded to that place at the mouth of the Wear .....
In Martijn's live update tonight, he has confirmed they've bid for buses.... 77 bid
50 for GNE and rest for Durham/Northumberland council contracts.
https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...3754764936 - from 2:15
Also, it looks like all of the future GNE buses order will be electric - so no more streetdecks/Streetlites by the look of it - but electric buses are double the price of Diesel buses.
Would be nice to see Deptford get some electric buses possibly for the 60/20 or 56 (seems to be the most popular Sunderland routes)
(29 Oct 2021, 7:35 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]Would be nice to see Deptford get some electric buses possibly for the 60/20 or 56 (seems to be the most popular Sunderland routes)
56 is a long route, not sure they would do from 5am till midnight (services during the night are Streetlites)
How many miles can the Yutong's go before they need charging?
What about the other electric buses, you can buy, how long do they last?
(29 Oct 2021, 6:35 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]In Martijn's live update tonight, he has confirmed they've bid for buses.... 77 bid
50 for GNE and rest for Durham/Northumberland council contracts.
https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...3754764936 - from 2:15
Also, it looks like all of the future GNE buses order will be electric - so no more streetdecks/Streetlites by the look of it - but electric buses are double the price of Diesel buses.
Looks like the bid for the initial 50 Buses will be for the Tyne Valley Ten, Angel 21 & Cobalt & Coast 309/310/311 as the PVR for these services is 50, the other 27 will be the X-Lines X5/X15 & Durham P&R/Cathedral Bus Services and then Tynedale Links Network in Hexham which was what originally documented.
I think in the interests of fleet standardisation they'll order either Wright Streetdeck Electroliners or the new Volvo BZL following demonstration then i'd think they'd likely stick with Yutong for any single deck orders but then again the smallest Yutong is 10.8m which is what is Voltra's at the moment, so I would therefore think potentially they may order some 9.6m BYD E200EV's.
(29 Oct 2021, 8:56 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]Looks like the bid for the initial 50 Buses will be for the Tyne Valley Ten, Angel 21 & Cobalt & Coast 309/310/311 as the PVR for these services is 50, the other 27 will be the X-Lines X5/X15 & Durham P&R/Cathedral Bus Services and then Tynedale Links Network in Hexham which was what originally documented.
I think in the interests of fleet standardisation they'll order either Wright Streetdeck Electroliners or the new Volvo BZL following demonstration then i'd think they'd likely stick with Yutong for any single deck orders but then again the smallest Yutong is 10.8m which is what is Voltra's at the moment, so I would therefore think potentially they may order some 9.6m BYD E200EV's.
But really they need to be looking at the millage of the double deckers and how that battery degreds over time.
(29 Oct 2021, 7:39 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]56 is a long route, not sure they would do from 5am till midnight (services during the night are Streetlites)
How many miles can the Yutong's go before they need charging?
What about the other electric buses, you can buy, how long do they last?
Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.
I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.
https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg
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(31 Oct 2021, 12:33 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.
I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.
https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg
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Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.
(31 Oct 2021, 12:33 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.
I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.
https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg
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Reducing/and or extending battery life would be idealy served by pantographs collecting from halos at bus stations, as is in use elsewhere. Trams need to come back, the metro can't expand west now. buses could feed from ole as trolley buses used to leaving the battery for dead sections as the metro proposed for Durham.
(31 Oct 2021, 7:32 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.
The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.
Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.
The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable
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(31 Oct 2021, 11:31 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.
Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.
The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable
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Aye your right currently. I think Hydrogen will become mainstream in other areas though, boilers in particular and once you've got them using Hydrogen then there's no reason why cars etc can't use the same supplies. I'm sure they're looking for ways to make it cleaner now anyway and isn't there one opening in Teesside soon, could be wrong there though. In fairness though the electric batteries are less than environmentally friendly aswell especially when disposing of them every 5 year since they're deteriorate massively.
The biggest advantage though is it works like petrol so if they did have to refuel it's as easy as popping to a pump and it's done whereas electric obviously they have to sit around for hours waiting for them to be charged which is less than ideal. Well and I don't believe there is deterioration problems either (could be wrong there though).
(31 Oct 2021, 11:31 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.
Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.
The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59107805
When you look at Bamford, the investment in Wrightbus, the work they've already done with hydrogen and this development with JCB - there's seems to be a clear trajectory.
(31 Oct 2021, 7:32 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.
I'd say the technology is already there, but the demand isn't unless the exchequer is prepared to fund it. From what I understand about the deal for the 15x Hydrogen Wrightbus deckers in Aberdeen, it was actually funded by Aberdeen City Council, the Scottish Government and the European Union and worked out around £500,000 per bus.
There needs to be more research and development put in by the Government to reduce the cost of electric and hydrogen powered vehicles, because the current setup of operators only being interested when there's money on offer is unsustainable. The public purse shouldn't be solely responsible for driving a green agenda for business.
(31 Oct 2021, 7:45 am)54APhotography wrote [ -> ]Reducing/and or extending battery life would be idealy served by pantographs collecting from halos at bus stations, as is in use elsewhere. Trams need to come back, the metro can't expand west now. buses could feed from ole as trolley buses used to leaving the battery for dead sections as the metro proposed for Durham.
Similar to the setup for the Harrogate locals. It's quite impressive how that works, having seen it in action. Something like that would actually be ideal for the Durham Park and Ride, or even something City based like the 700 in Sunderland or 64 in Durham.
I agree on Trams and in my opinion would play a significant role in decarbonising public transport. There is clearly a role for both trams and buses to play, if we stop seeing them as competition for one another.
(31 Oct 2021, 11:31 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.
Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.
The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable
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The best method would be to have a pipeline, and to be honest, I think that's the way we'll eventually go. The National Grid are apparently making plans around this already, with some repurposing of existing gas pipeline.
I'd like to think there could be a significant infrastructure contribution to bus depots, if there was a reciprocal commitment by the operators (at their own expense) to have a plan towards turning that depot fully-hydrogen.
Having used the hydrogen deckers in Aberdeen, I actually think they perform a lot better than electric buses I've been on, including GNE's Yutong fleet. Those deckers just feel effortless and you forget that it's not a fossil-fuel powered bus.