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North East Buses Local Bus Scene Operations, Management & Infrastructure Newcastle Clean Air Zone: services which need to be upgraded

Newcastle Clean Air Zone: services which need to be upgraded

Newcastle Clean Air Zone: services which need to be upgraded

 
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idiot



1,116
06 Oct 2021, 10:13 pm #141
(06 Oct 2021, 7:29 am)Dan Operators need to ‘sign up’ at the start of the term for planned Metro Replacement - only Go North East, Stagecoach and JH Coaches signed up.


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Thanks for the reply. How often do these come up?
idiot
06 Oct 2021, 10:13 pm #141

(06 Oct 2021, 7:29 am)Dan Operators need to ‘sign up’ at the start of the term for planned Metro Replacement - only Go North East, Stagecoach and JH Coaches signed up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the reply. How often do these come up?

V514DFT



2,225
06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm #142
(05 Oct 2021, 2:02 pm)Dan No. Arriva can't bid for Metro Replacement, the only operators that can are Go North East, Stagecoach and JH Coaches.

Stagecoach have never bid for a Metro Replacement contract yet (presumably isn't worth the hassle to them), so it's only really out of Go North East and JH Coaches. As I said before, I'd imagine Nexus will specify that the Miscellaneous Works contracts from September 2022 must be Euro 6. All the buses operating these services currently (Volvo B7TL, Scania OmniDekka, Dennis Trident) can be upgraded to Euro 6.
The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it

Kind Regards
Tez
V514DFT
06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm #142

(05 Oct 2021, 2:02 pm)Dan No. Arriva can't bid for Metro Replacement, the only operators that can are Go North East, Stagecoach and JH Coaches.

Stagecoach have never bid for a Metro Replacement contract yet (presumably isn't worth the hassle to them), so it's only really out of Go North East and JH Coaches. As I said before, I'd imagine Nexus will specify that the Miscellaneous Works contracts from September 2022 must be Euro 6. All the buses operating these services currently (Volvo B7TL, Scania OmniDekka, Dennis Trident) can be upgraded to Euro 6.
The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it


Kind Regards
Tez

Andreos1



14,155
07 Oct 2021, 7:49 am #143
(06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm)V514DFT The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it

They had some work when the Shields extension was ongoing alongside some connected work. 
Can remember being lumbered on a replacement one night after going to Ocean Road and then the Customs House. I'd completely forgot the metros weren't running, but had planned the return leg around the 4 from Heworth.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
07 Oct 2021, 7:49 am #143

(06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm)V514DFT The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it

They had some work when the Shields extension was ongoing alongside some connected work. 
Can remember being lumbered on a replacement one night after going to Ocean Road and then the Customs House. I'd completely forgot the metros weren't running, but had planned the return leg around the 4 from Heworth.


'Illegitimis non carborundum'

07 Oct 2021, 5:20 pm #144
(06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm)V514DFT The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it

They operated the 900 in Aug 2018 between Four Lane Ends and Monument to allow for modernisation work on the line.
stagecoachbusdepot
07 Oct 2021, 5:20 pm #144

(06 Oct 2021, 11:54 pm)V514DFT The last time i saw Stagecoach run the 900,was like 2003,theyve probably done again since then but i havent seen it

They operated the 900 in Aug 2018 between Four Lane Ends and Monument to allow for modernisation work on the line.

Keeiajs

563891

1,026
27 Nov 2021, 7:07 pm #145
What's happening with the Toon Tour Euro 6?
Keeiajs
27 Nov 2021, 7:07 pm #145

What's happening with the Toon Tour Euro 6?

Train8261



1,016
27 Nov 2021, 7:36 pm #146
(27 Nov 2021, 7:07 pm)Keeiajs What's happening with the Toon Tour Euro 6?
Think there using the Ex London Open Toppers
Train8261
27 Nov 2021, 7:36 pm #146

(27 Nov 2021, 7:07 pm)Keeiajs What's happening with the Toon Tour Euro 6?
Think there using the Ex London Open Toppers

Keeiajs

563891

1,026
27 Nov 2021, 7:41 pm #147
(27 Nov 2021, 7:36 pm)Train8261 Think there using the Ex London Open Toppers
So what will the current 3 be used for? 

AD122's? X66's? 19's? 61's? 

Really if they based 2 at Hexham, One at Deptford or Riverside could get some nice services.
Keeiajs
27 Nov 2021, 7:41 pm #147

(27 Nov 2021, 7:36 pm)Train8261 Think there using the Ex London Open Toppers
So what will the current 3 be used for? 

AD122's? X66's? 19's? 61's? 

Really if they based 2 at Hexham, One at Deptford or Riverside could get some nice services.

Train8261



1,016
27 Nov 2021, 8:51 pm #148
(27 Nov 2021, 7:41 pm)Keeiajs So what will the current 3 be used for? 

AD122's? X66's? 19's? 61's? 

Really if they based 2 at Hexham, One at Deptford or Riverside could get some nice services.
Knowing GNE. Sold as they don't meet Euro 6 or scrapped
Train8261
27 Nov 2021, 8:51 pm #148

(27 Nov 2021, 7:41 pm)Keeiajs So what will the current 3 be used for? 

AD122's? X66's? 19's? 61's? 

Really if they based 2 at Hexham, One at Deptford or Riverside could get some nice services.
Knowing GNE. Sold as they don't meet Euro 6 or scrapped

Keeiajs

563891

1,026
07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm #149
Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,
Keeiajs
07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm #149

Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,

08 Dec 2021, 1:17 am #150
(07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm)Keeiajs Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,

Already is. Due to be announced soon, if not already.
omnicity4659
08 Dec 2021, 1:17 am #150

(07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm)Keeiajs Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,

Already is. Due to be announced soon, if not already.

08 Dec 2021, 8:30 am #151
(07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm)Keeiajs Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,
https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf
54APhotography
08 Dec 2021, 8:30 am #151

(07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm)Keeiajs Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,
https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf

Michael



19,145
08 Dec 2021, 2:31 pm #152
(08 Dec 2021, 8:30 am)54APhotography https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf

Stupid question - Will they increase the prices of new builds by much?

Ooo Friend, Bus Friend.
Michael
08 Dec 2021, 2:31 pm #152

(08 Dec 2021, 8:30 am)54APhotography https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf

Stupid question - Will they increase the prices of new builds by much?


Ooo Friend, Bus Friend.

Adrian



9,566
05 Jan 2022, 12:23 pm #153
I think this is probably recycled from what Newcastle CC put out at the end of November, but: 'Newcastle calls for grant support ahead of CAZ launch'

"The council has asked the government for £23m to pay for grants that would help towards the cost of upgrading vehicles so that CAZ charges can be avoided.
"However, the council is still awaiting feedback from the government, as soon as they find out how much funding will be available they will let residents know via a new newsletter."

Also quotes a start date of July 2022 for the Newcastle CAZ, although it remains to be seen whether or not that is pushed back like Bradford's CAZ scheme did.

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Adrian
05 Jan 2022, 12:23 pm #153

I think this is probably recycled from what Newcastle CC put out at the end of November, but: 'Newcastle calls for grant support ahead of CAZ launch'

"The council has asked the government for £23m to pay for grants that would help towards the cost of upgrading vehicles so that CAZ charges can be avoided.
"However, the council is still awaiting feedback from the government, as soon as they find out how much funding will be available they will let residents know via a new newsletter."

Also quotes a start date of July 2022 for the Newcastle CAZ, although it remains to be seen whether or not that is pushed back like Bradford's CAZ scheme did.


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col87



493
09 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm #154
Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.
col87
09 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm #154

Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.

peter



993
09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm #155
(09 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)col87 Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.

It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.
peter
09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm #155

(09 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)col87 Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.

It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

10 Jan 2022, 10:29 am #156
(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.
Ianthegoon
10 Jan 2022, 10:29 am #156

(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.

Rob44



1,472
10 Jan 2022, 11:11 am #157
(10 Jan 2022, 10:29 am)Ianthegoon Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.

100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...
Rob44
10 Jan 2022, 11:11 am #157

(10 Jan 2022, 10:29 am)Ianthegoon Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.

100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...

11 Jan 2022, 9:06 am #158
(10 Jan 2022, 11:11 am)Rob44 100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...

You also have to remember that there isn't the finance or the manufacturing capability to carry out a mass switch-over to Euro 6 vehicles - if it was enforced, we'd be seeing operators decide which were the most profitable routes to keep and everything else would get binned.  Not exactly the best way to encourage bus travel!  Hence the bit-by-bit approach.  Eventually there may come a time when the switch can be mandated, but that won't be until the majority of vehicles already meet the regulations and they just need to encourage the last few across the line.
Ianthegoon
11 Jan 2022, 9:06 am #158

(10 Jan 2022, 11:11 am)Rob44 100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...

You also have to remember that there isn't the finance or the manufacturing capability to carry out a mass switch-over to Euro 6 vehicles - if it was enforced, we'd be seeing operators decide which were the most profitable routes to keep and everything else would get binned.  Not exactly the best way to encourage bus travel!  Hence the bit-by-bit approach.  Eventually there may come a time when the switch can be mandated, but that won't be until the majority of vehicles already meet the regulations and they just need to encourage the last few across the line.

Adrian



9,566
11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm #159
(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.

The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.

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Adrian
11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm #159

(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.

The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.


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Andreos1



14,155
11 Jan 2022, 2:33 pm #160
(11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm)Adrian I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.
 
The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.
 
I've often wondered if we see an arbitrary deadline set by the government, which would see these vehicles replaced before they're life expired - similar to the low floor situation.
Of course, the manufacturers would see a massive boost in orders and of course, the operators would see those orders subsidised by the taxpayer.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
11 Jan 2022, 2:33 pm #160

(11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm)Adrian I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.
 
The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.
 
I've often wondered if we see an arbitrary deadline set by the government, which would see these vehicles replaced before they're life expired - similar to the low floor situation.
Of course, the manufacturers would see a massive boost in orders and of course, the operators would see those orders subsidised by the taxpayer.


'Illegitimis non carborundum'

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