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Arriva North East: Service Suggestions

Arriva North East: Service Suggestions

 
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Storx



4,481
13 Aug 2022, 10:31 am #1,221
(13 Aug 2022, 8:37 am)RMF1254 I thought the 51 was commercial although when the 51a started I think there was some input from the house builders at Holystone and East Benton. When GNE withdrew the 42/42a I think Nexus put some money towards the 51a running via Wiltshire Drive to maintain a half hourly link to Benton ASDA.

I'm not too sure but I know in the spreadsheet the whole route is listed in the freedom of request awhile back but it's in 3 bits for some reason - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1590909

8801 51 Benton Asda - Holystone - West Allotment - Shiremoor - Earsdon - Beaumont Park - Whitley Bay Monday - Sunday all day route extension
8802 51 Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service
8802 51A Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service

That's the details though pulled out.

(13 Aug 2022, 9:35 am)L469 YVK A hypothetical one here, would Arriva not have been better off doing a deal with GNE?

GNE > Arriva
- 21 - Arriva takes this on and operates out of Belmont.
- GNE keep the X21 to keep CMA happy.

Arriva > GNE
- All Jesmond routes bar the 306 which is kept by Arriva and moved to Blyth. 685 moved to Hexham.
* All other services split between Percy Main & Riverside.

Benefits:
- Dead mileage reduced for both operators (although GNE would need to keep the X21 > could find space at Washington maybe moving the 8 to Consett and doing remote reliefs at Stanley).
- ANE get another 'gold mine' route in their portfolio alongside the 308 as well as some drivers from GNE's CLS operation if they agreed to TUPE and move to Belmont.
- GNE get an increased presence again in North Tyneside and can (hopefully under a new MD) stabilise their network.
- ANE can have a stronger focus concentrating on Blyth & Ashington.

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.
Edited 13 Aug 2022, 10:40 am by Storx.
Storx
13 Aug 2022, 10:31 am #1,221

(13 Aug 2022, 8:37 am)RMF1254 I thought the 51 was commercial although when the 51a started I think there was some input from the house builders at Holystone and East Benton. When GNE withdrew the 42/42a I think Nexus put some money towards the 51a running via Wiltshire Drive to maintain a half hourly link to Benton ASDA.

I'm not too sure but I know in the spreadsheet the whole route is listed in the freedom of request awhile back but it's in 3 bits for some reason - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1590909

8801 51 Benton Asda - Holystone - West Allotment - Shiremoor - Earsdon - Beaumont Park - Whitley Bay Monday - Sunday all day route extension
8802 51 Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service
8802 51A Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service

That's the details though pulled out.

(13 Aug 2022, 9:35 am)L469 YVK A hypothetical one here, would Arriva not have been better off doing a deal with GNE?

GNE > Arriva
- 21 - Arriva takes this on and operates out of Belmont.
- GNE keep the X21 to keep CMA happy.

Arriva > GNE
- All Jesmond routes bar the 306 which is kept by Arriva and moved to Blyth. 685 moved to Hexham.
* All other services split between Percy Main & Riverside.

Benefits:
- Dead mileage reduced for both operators (although GNE would need to keep the X21 > could find space at Washington maybe moving the 8 to Consett and doing remote reliefs at Stanley).
- ANE get another 'gold mine' route in their portfolio alongside the 308 as well as some drivers from GNE's CLS operation if they agreed to TUPE and move to Belmont.
- GNE get an increased presence again in North Tyneside and can (hopefully under a new MD) stabilise their network.
- ANE can have a stronger focus concentrating on Blyth & Ashington.

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.

L469 YVK



3,544
13 Aug 2022, 1:31 pm #1,222
(13 Aug 2022, 10:31 am)Storx

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.
All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket
L469 YVK
13 Aug 2022, 1:31 pm #1,222

(13 Aug 2022, 10:31 am)Storx

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.
All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket

Unber43



3,533
13 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm #1,223
(13 Aug 2022, 1:31 pm)L469 YVK All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket
41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.
Unber43
13 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm #1,223

(13 Aug 2022, 1:31 pm)L469 YVK All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket
41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.

V514DFT



2,225
13 Aug 2022, 11:22 pm #1,224
Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington

Kind Regards
Tez
V514DFT
13 Aug 2022, 11:22 pm #1,224

Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington


Kind Regards
Tez

V514DFT



2,225
13 Aug 2022, 11:23 pm #1,225
Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47

Kind Regards
Tez
V514DFT
13 Aug 2022, 11:23 pm #1,225

Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47


Kind Regards
Tez

14 Aug 2022, 12:05 am #1,226
(13 Aug 2022, 11:22 pm)V514DFT Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington

Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.
omnicity4659
14 Aug 2022, 12:05 am #1,226

(13 Aug 2022, 11:22 pm)V514DFT Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington

Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.

14 Aug 2022, 2:50 am #1,227
(13 Aug 2022, 11:23 pm)V514DFT Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47


it used to be an extension of the 46 but was split in Haymarket so I guess same would apply for the 55. When I have saw it, it’s always a double decker and has nobody on it seems a waste!
Coastliner700
14 Aug 2022, 2:50 am #1,227

(13 Aug 2022, 11:23 pm)V514DFT Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47


it used to be an extension of the 46 but was split in Haymarket so I guess same would apply for the 55. When I have saw it, it’s always a double decker and has nobody on it seems a waste!

Aaron21



775
14 Aug 2022, 3:12 am #1,228
Pretty sure the 47 is a contract for the Hospitals. Think the idea was the 46 to go the hospital but it didn't work well with it being a solo (never see a long bus on the 46) so the 47 was introduced to do the hospital section of the 46 and it seems to work. With a decekr usually allocated during the morning & evening with 1499 to do during the day trips
Aaron21
14 Aug 2022, 3:12 am #1,228

Pretty sure the 47 is a contract for the Hospitals. Think the idea was the 46 to go the hospital but it didn't work well with it being a solo (never see a long bus on the 46) so the 47 was introduced to do the hospital section of the 46 and it seems to work. With a decekr usually allocated during the morning & evening with 1499 to do during the day trips

L469 YVK



3,544
14 Aug 2022, 10:38 am #1,229
(13 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm)Unber43 41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.
QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.
Edited 14 Aug 2022, 10:42 am by L469 YVK.
L469 YVK
14 Aug 2022, 10:38 am #1,229

(13 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm)Unber43 41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.
QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.

L469 YVK



3,544
14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am #1,230
(14 Aug 2022, 11:01 am)Adrian Mod note: I've done some housekeeping on this thread.
  • The 'Newcastle Depot' thread has been merged into the already existing Jesmond Depot thread.
  • Service suggestions (even those entering the realm of pure fantasy) have been moved to the Arriva Service Suggestions thread.
In order to keep this thread tidy and on topic, can we keep this to the Jesmond depot closure and the operational challenges around that? Suggestions of re-designing the network need to stay in the relevant suggestions threads.
Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.
L469 YVK
14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am #1,230

(14 Aug 2022, 11:01 am)Adrian Mod note: I've done some housekeeping on this thread.
  • The 'Newcastle Depot' thread has been merged into the already existing Jesmond Depot thread.
  • Service suggestions (even those entering the realm of pure fantasy) have been moved to the Arriva Service Suggestions thread.
In order to keep this thread tidy and on topic, can we keep this to the Jesmond depot closure and the operational challenges around that? Suggestions of re-designing the network need to stay in the relevant suggestions threads.
Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

Adrian



9,566
14 Aug 2022, 11:52 am #1,231
(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

I've also moved this post, as you're completely muddying the waters. Whilst some of it has a link to the Jesmond depot, most of it does not. Go North East have nothing to do with Arriva closing their Jesmond depot, therefore that content falls into the realms of suggestions or pure fantasy.

Not trying to be awkward, but all these suggestions etc, tend to only interest a small handful of people who use the forum. Hence us wanting to keep that Jesmond thread on topic.

Forum Moderator | Find NEB on facebook
Adrian
14 Aug 2022, 11:52 am #1,231

(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

I've also moved this post, as you're completely muddying the waters. Whilst some of it has a link to the Jesmond depot, most of it does not. Go North East have nothing to do with Arriva closing their Jesmond depot, therefore that content falls into the realms of suggestions or pure fantasy.

Not trying to be awkward, but all these suggestions etc, tend to only interest a small handful of people who use the forum. Hence us wanting to keep that Jesmond thread on topic.


Forum Moderator | Find NEB on facebook

Chris 1



238
14 Aug 2022, 1:20 pm #1,232
(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

Would it not just be easier all round if Arriva shared a depot with GNE? In this case Percy Main. IIRC the idea was floated in the Peter Huntley days though I don’t know how far it was pursued.
Chris 1
14 Aug 2022, 1:20 pm #1,232

(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

Would it not just be easier all round if Arriva shared a depot with GNE? In this case Percy Main. IIRC the idea was floated in the Peter Huntley days though I don’t know how far it was pursued.

Storx



4,481
14 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm #1,233
(14 Aug 2022, 12:05 am)omnicity4659 Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.

You'd need to send something to Morpeth otherwise you'd lose the Morpeth -> Cramlington link which is the purpose of the 43 extension, rather than Newcastle.

Removing the X9 link is a bad idea though. The X8 is the questionable route, duplicating the 52/57A between Cramlington and Newcastle for large parts, bar the short section between High Pit and Annitsford towards Newcastle, serving very little and then the X7/X10/X11 between Cramlington and Blyth.

Personally I'd some how try and merge the 52 and X8 as one route and maybe interwork that with a 30 minute 55 with full size buses and 54 if timings are possible, interworking with the X7 giving a 15 minute service between South Gosforth and Newcastle.

So it does 52 -> 54 -> 54 -> 55 -> 52 (Blyth Based with Streetlites)

For the 53 I'd extend that back to Morpeth like it used to years ago as the 343 and work it with the Morpeth driver boards with the 1 and 2 (Ashington Based with Pulsars)

That's the 50's sorted. Then the X7/X9/47 could work together with a PVR 10

Doing X7 -> 47 -> X9 or X9 -> 47 -> X7

Just leaves the 43/44/45/46/51/51A
Storx
14 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm #1,233

(14 Aug 2022, 12:05 am)omnicity4659 Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.

You'd need to send something to Morpeth otherwise you'd lose the Morpeth -> Cramlington link which is the purpose of the 43 extension, rather than Newcastle.

Removing the X9 link is a bad idea though. The X8 is the questionable route, duplicating the 52/57A between Cramlington and Newcastle for large parts, bar the short section between High Pit and Annitsford towards Newcastle, serving very little and then the X7/X10/X11 between Cramlington and Blyth.

Personally I'd some how try and merge the 52 and X8 as one route and maybe interwork that with a 30 minute 55 with full size buses and 54 if timings are possible, interworking with the X7 giving a 15 minute service between South Gosforth and Newcastle.

So it does 52 -> 54 -> 54 -> 55 -> 52 (Blyth Based with Streetlites)

For the 53 I'd extend that back to Morpeth like it used to years ago as the 343 and work it with the Morpeth driver boards with the 1 and 2 (Ashington Based with Pulsars)

That's the 50's sorted. Then the X7/X9/47 could work together with a PVR 10

Doing X7 -> 47 -> X9 or X9 -> 47 -> X7

Just leaves the 43/44/45/46/51/51A

V514DFT



2,225
14 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm #1,234
(14 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm)Storx You'd need to send something to Morpeth otherwise you'd lose the Morpeth -> Cramlington link which is the purpose of the 43 extension, rather than Newcastle.

Removing the X9 link is a bad idea though. The X8 is the questionable route, duplicating the 52/57A between Cramlington and Newcastle for large parts, bar the short section between High Pit and Annitsford towards Newcastle, serving very little and then the X7/X10/X11 between Cramlington and Blyth.

Personally I'd some how try and merge the 52 and X8 as one route and maybe interwork that with a 30 minute 55 with full size buses and 54 if timings are possible, interworking with the X7 giving a 15 minute service between South Gosforth and Newcastle.

So it does 52 -> 54 -> 54 -> 55 -> 52 (Blyth Based with Streetlites)

For the 53 I'd extend that back to Morpeth like it used to years ago as the 343 and work it with the Morpeth driver boards with the 1 and 2 (Ashington Based with Pulsars)

That's the 50's sorted. Then the X7/X9/47 could work together with a PVR 10

Doing X7 -> 47 -> X9 or X9 -> 47 -> X7

Just leaves the 43/44/45/46/51/51A
I remember round about 2014ish that the 54 and 55 did used to interwork ,was operated by 2 solos (sometimes darts) and 2 full sized buses,since the 46/46A already interwork,could the 51 not just be canned,and merged with the 46,i know the route would be a bit on the large side,but could work

Kind Regards
Tez
V514DFT
14 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm #1,234

(14 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm)Storx You'd need to send something to Morpeth otherwise you'd lose the Morpeth -> Cramlington link which is the purpose of the 43 extension, rather than Newcastle.

Removing the X9 link is a bad idea though. The X8 is the questionable route, duplicating the 52/57A between Cramlington and Newcastle for large parts, bar the short section between High Pit and Annitsford towards Newcastle, serving very little and then the X7/X10/X11 between Cramlington and Blyth.

Personally I'd some how try and merge the 52 and X8 as one route and maybe interwork that with a 30 minute 55 with full size buses and 54 if timings are possible, interworking with the X7 giving a 15 minute service between South Gosforth and Newcastle.

So it does 52 -> 54 -> 54 -> 55 -> 52 (Blyth Based with Streetlites)

For the 53 I'd extend that back to Morpeth like it used to years ago as the 343 and work it with the Morpeth driver boards with the 1 and 2 (Ashington Based with Pulsars)

That's the 50's sorted. Then the X7/X9/47 could work together with a PVR 10

Doing X7 -> 47 -> X9 or X9 -> 47 -> X7

Just leaves the 43/44/45/46/51/51A
I remember round about 2014ish that the 54 and 55 did used to interwork ,was operated by 2 solos (sometimes darts) and 2 full sized buses,since the 46/46A already interwork,could the 51 not just be canned,and merged with the 46,i know the route would be a bit on the large side,but could work


Kind Regards
Tez

GNE6312



1,091
15 Aug 2022, 6:22 am #1,235
(14 Aug 2022, 10:38 am)L469 YVK QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.

For the 685 it would be better if stagecoach ran it seeing as Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancs have 3 duties (Brampton Shorts & 2 Newcastle duties) which would mean then the service would be fully ran for stagecoach, with the 3 NE duties being ran from Slatyford using either 3x Euro 6 MANs, E400s or E400MMCs (or a mix of all). This would then make the service more standard being allocated 6x SC vehicles.
GNE6312
15 Aug 2022, 6:22 am #1,235

(14 Aug 2022, 10:38 am)L469 YVK QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.

For the 685 it would be better if stagecoach ran it seeing as Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancs have 3 duties (Brampton Shorts & 2 Newcastle duties) which would mean then the service would be fully ran for stagecoach, with the 3 NE duties being ran from Slatyford using either 3x Euro 6 MANs, E400s or E400MMCs (or a mix of all). This would then make the service more standard being allocated 6x SC vehicles.

Storx



4,481
15 Aug 2022, 8:15 am #1,236
(14 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm)V514DFT I remember round about 2014ish that the 54 and 55 did used to interwork ,was operated by 2 solos (sometimes darts) and 2 full sized buses,since the 46/46A already interwork,could the 51 not just be canned,and merged with the 46,i know the route would be a bit on the large side,but could work

Honestly can't remember that like, the 54 is a funny route which got changed about 5 times in the early 00's. Felt like it was almost monthly it was changing, some better, some worse (the X6 being by far the most stupid of the lot).
Storx
15 Aug 2022, 8:15 am #1,236

(14 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm)V514DFT I remember round about 2014ish that the 54 and 55 did used to interwork ,was operated by 2 solos (sometimes darts) and 2 full sized buses,since the 46/46A already interwork,could the 51 not just be canned,and merged with the 46,i know the route would be a bit on the large side,but could work

Honestly can't remember that like, the 54 is a funny route which got changed about 5 times in the early 00's. Felt like it was almost monthly it was changing, some better, some worse (the X6 being by far the most stupid of the lot).

V514DFT



2,225
15 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm #1,237
(15 Aug 2022, 8:15 am)Storx Honestly can't remember that like, the 54 is a funny route which got changed about 5 times in the early 00's. Felt like it was almost monthly it was changing, some better, some worse (the X6 being by far the most stupid of the lot).
I dont if its just me,but I thought it ran better when it was the 356

Kind Regards
Tez
V514DFT
15 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm #1,237

(15 Aug 2022, 8:15 am)Storx Honestly can't remember that like, the 54 is a funny route which got changed about 5 times in the early 00's. Felt like it was almost monthly it was changing, some better, some worse (the X6 being by far the most stupid of the lot).
I dont if its just me,but I thought it ran better when it was the 356


Kind Regards
Tez

col87



493
15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm #1,238
If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.
col87
15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm #1,238

If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.

cbma06



2,669
15 Aug 2022, 8:17 pm #1,239
(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.


What bus services in east Durham? Most gne bus services in east Durham are dcc secured services


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


cbma06
15 Aug 2022, 8:17 pm #1,239

(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.


What bus services in east Durham? Most gne bus services in east Durham are dcc secured services


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Storx



4,481
16 Aug 2022, 7:23 am #1,240
(15 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm)V514DFT I dont if its just me,but I thought it ran better when it was the 356

Same here tbh, same with the 343/344 and 335 aswell. They're 2 routes which are in a much worse state now imo.

(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.

Swapping Stagecoach South Shields and GNE North Tyneside would be better imo even known GNE pulled out of South Shields years ago.

Means Stagecoach would have the Cobalt services and pretty much everything to the South of the Coast Road / Battle Hill.

It's the same in South Shields where you have the 20/26/27 and other services in the same corridors
Storx
16 Aug 2022, 7:23 am #1,240

(15 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm)V514DFT I dont if its just me,but I thought it ran better when it was the 356

Same here tbh, same with the 343/344 and 335 aswell. They're 2 routes which are in a much worse state now imo.

(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.

Swapping Stagecoach South Shields and GNE North Tyneside would be better imo even known GNE pulled out of South Shields years ago.

Means Stagecoach would have the Cobalt services and pretty much everything to the South of the Coast Road / Battle Hill.

It's the same in South Shields where you have the 20/26/27 and other services in the same corridors

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