Go North East: Withdrawn Vehicles & Fleet Disposals
Go North East: Withdrawn Vehicles & Fleet Disposals
(09 Nov 2020, 10:59 am)Michael Well we can hopeStill plenty life left in them I imagine. However makes sense to get rid of the biggest fuel eaters to help reduce consumption. The Omnis are still lovely runners so can see them outlasting a fair few citaros
Wonder if anyone will pick up the Citaro's although I remember Martijn saying the bodywork underneath was a mess.
(09 Nov 2020, 10:59 am)Michael Well we can hopeStill plenty life left in them I imagine. However makes sense to get rid of the biggest fuel eaters to help reduce consumption. The Omnis are still lovely runners so can see them outlasting a fair few citaros
Wonder if anyone will pick up the Citaro's although I remember Martijn saying the bodywork underneath was a mess.
(09 Nov 2020, 11:03 am)JP6004 Still plenty life left in them I imagine. However makes sense to get rid of the biggest fuel eaters to help reduce consumption. The Omnis are still lovely runners so can see them outlasting a fair few citaros
(09 Nov 2020, 11:03 am)JP6004 Still plenty life left in them I imagine. However makes sense to get rid of the biggest fuel eaters to help reduce consumption. The Omnis are still lovely runners so can see them outlasting a fair few citaros
Looks like a Toonlink double decker had a collision today in Sunderland, while on metro replacement:
https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/tran...us-3043783
(I've hit my weekly read limit so can't actually read the post - anyone care to share?)
(22 Nov 2020, 4:09 pm)Michael Looks like a Toonlink double decker had a collision today in Sunderland, while on metro replacement:
https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/tran...us-3043783
(I've hit my weekly read limit so can't actually read the post - anyone care to share?)
![[Image: Toonlink-Accident.png]](https://i.ibb.co/VVZct62/Toonlink-Accident.png)
(22 Nov 2020, 4:09 pm)Michael Looks like a Toonlink double decker had a collision today in Sunderland, while on metro replacement:
https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/tran...us-3043783
(I've hit my weekly read limit so can't actually read the post - anyone care to share?)
(22 Nov 2020, 5:41 pm)streetdeckfan Here's a free tech tip for you, if you hit the limit, just open the link in an incognito/private window and 90% of the time you'll be able to read it.
Looks like it was quite a bump, although the damage appears to only be on the nearside so there's not much 'structure' there so it's probably not as bad as it looks.
Here's the direct link to their video so you don't have to visit the advertisement hell that is their website.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xmwuk
Or, I've screenshat the best frame of the terrible quality video below
(22 Nov 2020, 5:41 pm)streetdeckfan Here's a free tech tip for you, if you hit the limit, just open the link in an incognito/private window and 90% of the time you'll be able to read it.
Looks like it was quite a bump, although the damage appears to only be on the nearside so there's not much 'structure' there so it's probably not as bad as it looks.
Here's the direct link to their video so you don't have to visit the advertisement hell that is their website.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7xmwuk
Or, I've screenshat the best frame of the terrible quality video below
(09 Nov 2020, 11:16 am)Michael They'll be going after the Citaro's no doubt (not including the Connections 4 Citaro's and Washington's Euro 6 Omnicities).Looking at the fleet list depending on how up to date it is the following Omnicities are Euro 4 rated 5234, 5237 to 5242, 5249 to 5253 and 5263 to 5274 = Total of 24 Omnicities that have not been upgraded to Euro 6.
I'm going to be honest, what is actually spare in the fleet now and not needed, but been kept for dupes?
----------
Crusader Citaro's
5337/38
5381-5387
The Tynedale Express Citaro's should be going too.
The Presidents (not open tops)
Toonlink Omnicities.
6118 - 6121 (off to EY)
Anything else?
(09 Nov 2020, 11:16 am)Michael They'll be going after the Citaro's no doubt (not including the Connections 4 Citaro's and Washington's Euro 6 Omnicities).Looking at the fleet list depending on how up to date it is the following Omnicities are Euro 4 rated 5234, 5237 to 5242, 5249 to 5253 and 5263 to 5274 = Total of 24 Omnicities that have not been upgraded to Euro 6.
I'm going to be honest, what is actually spare in the fleet now and not needed, but been kept for dupes?
----------
Crusader Citaro's
5337/38
5381-5387
The Tynedale Express Citaro's should be going too.
The Presidents (not open tops)
Toonlink Omnicities.
6118 - 6121 (off to EY)
Anything else?
Was it not also down to the fact that the Scania Omnicities and Optare Versas could be upgraded to meet the latest Euro Standards whereas the Citaro couldn't.
(22 Nov 2020, 10:50 pm)Rapidsnap Was it not also down to the fact that the Scania Omnicities and Optare Versas could be upgraded to meet the latest Euro Standards whereas the Citaro couldn't.
(22 Nov 2020, 10:50 pm)Rapidsnap Was it not also down to the fact that the Scania Omnicities and Optare Versas could be upgraded to meet the latest Euro Standards whereas the Citaro couldn't.
(22 Nov 2020, 5:56 pm)Malarkey Looking at the fleet list depending on how up to date it is the following Omnicities are Euro 4 rated 5234, 5237 to 5242, 5249 to 5253 and 5263 to 5274 = Total of 24 Omnicities that have not been upgraded to Euro 6.
Interesting they'd rather keep Euro 4 rated Omnicities over Euro 5 rated Mercedes Citaros with the exception of 5481-87 which are Euro 4, same again keeping Omnidekkas that are Euro 4 over the Presidents that are Euro 5, surely you'd be wanting to keep the fleet with the most efficient vehicles, Only Omnidekkas that are Euro 5 are 6162 to 6171/76.
I'd also add 8294 to 8309 to being in contention for being withdrawn as again these are Euro 4, looking at the repaints of the Versas in the past few weeks I think the 09 plates will be replaced by 10/11 Plated Versas.
(22 Nov 2020, 5:56 pm)Malarkey Looking at the fleet list depending on how up to date it is the following Omnicities are Euro 4 rated 5234, 5237 to 5242, 5249 to 5253 and 5263 to 5274 = Total of 24 Omnicities that have not been upgraded to Euro 6.
Interesting they'd rather keep Euro 4 rated Omnicities over Euro 5 rated Mercedes Citaros with the exception of 5481-87 which are Euro 4, same again keeping Omnidekkas that are Euro 4 over the Presidents that are Euro 5, surely you'd be wanting to keep the fleet with the most efficient vehicles, Only Omnidekkas that are Euro 5 are 6162 to 6171/76.
I'd also add 8294 to 8309 to being in contention for being withdrawn as again these are Euro 4, looking at the repaints of the Versas in the past few weeks I think the 09 plates will be replaced by 10/11 Plated Versas.
(22 Nov 2020, 5:56 pm)Malarkey Interesting they'd rather keep Euro 4 rated Omnicities over Euro 5 rated Mercedes Citaros with the exception of 5481-87 which are Euro 4, same again keeping Omnidekkas that are Euro 4 over the Presidents that are Euro 5, surely you'd be wanting to keep the fleet with the most efficient vehicles, Only Omnidekkas that are Euro 5 are 6162 to 6171/76.
(22 Nov 2020, 5:56 pm)Malarkey Interesting they'd rather keep Euro 4 rated Omnicities over Euro 5 rated Mercedes Citaros with the exception of 5481-87 which are Euro 4, same again keeping Omnidekkas that are Euro 4 over the Presidents that are Euro 5, surely you'd be wanting to keep the fleet with the most efficient vehicles, Only Omnidekkas that are Euro 5 are 6162 to 6171/76.
(24 Nov 2020, 12:01 pm)Jamie M Euro ratings aren't based on efficiency, just emissions alone. Some enhanced Euro modifications, like adblue, may actually adversely affect efficiency (MPG). There are also plenty of older vehicles that can meet Euro 6 standard, but aren't efficient enough to really bother.
(24 Nov 2020, 12:01 pm)Jamie M Euro ratings aren't based on efficiency, just emissions alone. Some enhanced Euro modifications, like adblue, may actually adversely affect efficiency (MPG). There are also plenty of older vehicles that can meet Euro 6 standard, but aren't efficient enough to really bother.
(24 Nov 2020, 12:09 pm)Andreos1 Which seems to contradict the comments made previously that the enhanced BSOG can make or break evening routes, which may end up subsidised and contracted out to the likes of GCT without it.
Surely if the mods are available and the grants are attractive, an operator that bothered about its customers would look to retrofit to Euro6 and ensure there's some sort of service on an evening...
(24 Nov 2020, 12:09 pm)Andreos1 Which seems to contradict the comments made previously that the enhanced BSOG can make or break evening routes, which may end up subsidised and contracted out to the likes of GCT without it.
Surely if the mods are available and the grants are attractive, an operator that bothered about its customers would look to retrofit to Euro6 and ensure there's some sort of service on an evening...
(24 Nov 2020, 12:15 pm)Jamie M If you have a battered old nearly 20 year old decker that can be converted to euro 6, who's going to spend the thousands of pounds to it, in addition to all the reliability, rot, corrosion and part issues you get with vehicles of this age? If I was a council, I'd not want to oblige.
Euro is an emissions standard, not one for efficiency. Though, with newer vehicles both go hand in hand.
(24 Nov 2020, 12:15 pm)Jamie M If you have a battered old nearly 20 year old decker that can be converted to euro 6, who's going to spend the thousands of pounds to it, in addition to all the reliability, rot, corrosion and part issues you get with vehicles of this age? If I was a council, I'd not want to oblige.
Euro is an emissions standard, not one for efficiency. Though, with newer vehicles both go hand in hand.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:05 pm)Andreos1 And those vehicles which are a lot newer than that, who have parts in ready supply?
It's not that I agree with the grants funding upgrades or additional handouts supporting multi-million pound plc's to run their vehicles on an evening. Far from it.
It's the hypocrisy and contradictions we see coming out from operators.
They want funding, grants and support - but not government regulation.
They will use the pr teams to spin how wonderful their vehicles are and how they're loaded with fancy gadgets - but not mention that there were a fair few pounds chucked their way to help with the process.
They tell us how they look after passengers and make their experience better - but don't run a bus to get people home. Unless there's a bit of funding to help them achieve that.
Getting back to the emissions part of the convo, I'm surprised we've not seen anything like we saw with the National's and their re-engine programme.
I've no idea how viable that was at the time and whether the cost of the re-engines were justified versus the age and subsequent use, but I wouldn't mind seeing if anything was being explored elsewhere.
Or, if manufacturers are just wanting operators to spend the cash on a new bus instead.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:05 pm)Andreos1 And those vehicles which are a lot newer than that, who have parts in ready supply?
It's not that I agree with the grants funding upgrades or additional handouts supporting multi-million pound plc's to run their vehicles on an evening. Far from it.
It's the hypocrisy and contradictions we see coming out from operators.
They want funding, grants and support - but not government regulation.
They will use the pr teams to spin how wonderful their vehicles are and how they're loaded with fancy gadgets - but not mention that there were a fair few pounds chucked their way to help with the process.
They tell us how they look after passengers and make their experience better - but don't run a bus to get people home. Unless there's a bit of funding to help them achieve that.
Getting back to the emissions part of the convo, I'm surprised we've not seen anything like we saw with the National's and their re-engine programme.
I've no idea how viable that was at the time and whether the cost of the re-engines were justified versus the age and subsequent use, but I wouldn't mind seeing if anything was being explored elsewhere.
Or, if manufacturers are just wanting operators to spend the cash on a new bus instead.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:25 pm)streetdeckfan Personally, I think it's less of them not wanting to run the evening buses and more of them taking advantage of the fact that those services are essential and the councils will pay to have them run. Until recently that wasn't really an 'issue' for the passengers, or even widely known about, but when GCT started to undercut GNE and take the evening services away from them it brought it under the spotlight. I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in their shoes.
As for the re-engining, it depends on how you look at it.
If you have an older vehicle that's worth say £15-20k and to put a new efficient engine in is going to cost another £15k, you're instantly going to think it's not worth bothering with. But if that vehicle is otherwise fine, and you can get another 5 years out of it (probably the best part of £50k in payments on a new StreetDeck/E400) and save some fuel in the process, suddenly it looks a lot more appealing.
Plus, GNE are looking at replacing the engine and hybrid drivetrain in the B5Hs, so if the trial vehicle ever comes back and it turns out well, we may see more of that in the future.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:05 pm)Andreos1 And those vehicles which are a lot newer than that, who have parts in ready supply?
It's not that I agree with the grants funding upgrades or additional handouts supporting multi-million pound plc's to run their vehicles on an evening. Far from it.
It's the hypocrisy and contradictions we see coming out from operators.
They want funding, grants and support - but not government regulation.
They will use the pr teams to spin how wonderful their vehicles are and how they're loaded with fancy gadgets - but not mention that there were a fair few pounds chucked their way to help with the process.
They tell us how they look after passengers and make their experience better - but don't run a bus to get people home. Unless there's a bit of funding to help them achieve that.
Getting back to the emissions part of the convo, I'm surprised we've not seen anything like we saw with the National's and their re-engine programme.
I've no idea how viable that was at the time and whether the cost of the re-engines were justified versus the age and subsequent use, but I wouldn't mind seeing if anything was being explored elsewhere.
Or, if manufacturers are just wanting operators to spend the cash on a new bus instead.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:25 pm)streetdeckfan Personally, I think it's less of them not wanting to run the evening buses and more of them taking advantage of the fact that those services are essential and the councils will pay to have them run. Until recently that wasn't really an 'issue' for the passengers, or even widely known about, but when GCT started to undercut GNE and take the evening services away from them it brought it under the spotlight. I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in their shoes.
As for the re-engining, it depends on how you look at it.
If you have an older vehicle that's worth say £15-20k and to put a new efficient engine in is going to cost another £15k, you're instantly going to think it's not worth bothering with. But if that vehicle is otherwise fine, and you can get another 5 years out of it (probably the best part of £50k in payments on a new StreetDeck/E400) and save some fuel in the process, suddenly it looks a lot more appealing.
Plus, GNE are looking at replacing the engine and hybrid drivetrain in the B5Hs, so if the trial vehicle ever comes back and it turns out well, we may see more of that in the future.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:05 pm)Andreos1 And those vehicles which are a lot newer than that, who have parts in ready supply?
It's not that I agree with the grants funding upgrades or additional handouts supporting multi-million pound plc's to run their vehicles on an evening. Far from it.
It's the hypocrisy and contradictions we see coming out from operators.
They want funding, grants and support - but not government regulation.
They will use the pr teams to spin how wonderful their vehicles are and how they're loaded with fancy gadgets - but not mention that there were a fair few pounds chucked their way to help with the process.
They tell us how they look after passengers and make their experience better - but don't run a bus to get people home. Unless there's a bit of funding to help them achieve that.
Getting back to the emissions part of the convo, I'm surprised we've not seen anything like we saw with the National's and their re-engine programme.
I've no idea how viable that was at the time and whether the cost of the re-engines were justified versus the age and subsequent use, but I wouldn't mind seeing if anything was being explored elsewhere.
Or, if manufacturers are just wanting operators to spend the cash on a new bus instead.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:25 pm)streetdeckfan Personally, I think it's less of them not wanting to run the evening buses and more of them taking advantage of the fact that those services are essential and the councils will pay to have them run. Until recently that wasn't really an 'issue' for the passengers, or even widely known about, but when GCT started to undercut GNE and take the evening services away from them it brought it under the spotlight. I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in their shoes.
As for the re-engining, it depends on how you look at it.
If you have an older vehicle that's worth say £15-20k and to put a new efficient engine in is going to cost another £15k, you're instantly going to think it's not worth bothering with. But if that vehicle is otherwise fine, and you can get another 5 years out of it (probably the best part of £50k in payments on a new StreetDeck/E400) and save some fuel in the process, suddenly it looks a lot more appealing.
Plus, GNE are looking at replacing the engine and hybrid drivetrain in the B5Hs, so if the trial vehicle ever comes back and it turns out well, we may see more of that in the future.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:28 pm)Jamie M End of life vehicles are very rarely worth more than a few thousand in scrap
I don't think we're disagreeing. There's a whole argument about the destructive price-war tendering scheme I can rant on about, it's all related.
We need a lot more than PLCs to change, in order for our public transport model to be fit for purpose.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:25 pm)streetdeckfan Personally, I think it's less of them not wanting to run the evening buses and more of them taking advantage of the fact that those services are essential and the councils will pay to have them run. Until recently that wasn't really an 'issue' for the passengers, or even widely known about, but when GCT started to undercut GNE and take the evening services away from them it brought it under the spotlight. I'm not saying it's an ethical thing to do, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in their shoes.
As for the re-engining, it depends on how you look at it.
If you have an older vehicle that's worth say £15-20k and to put a new efficient engine in is going to cost another £15k, you're instantly going to think it's not worth bothering with. But if that vehicle is otherwise fine, and you can get another 5 years out of it (probably the best part of £50k in payments on a new StreetDeck/E400) and save some fuel in the process, suddenly it looks a lot more appealing.
Plus, GNE are looking at replacing the engine and hybrid drivetrain in the B5Hs, so if the trial vehicle ever comes back and it turns out well, we may see more of that in the future.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:28 pm)Jamie M End of life vehicles are very rarely worth more than a few thousand in scrap
I don't think we're disagreeing. There's a whole argument about the destructive price-war tendering scheme I can rant on about, it's all related.
We need a lot more than PLCs to change, in order for our public transport model to be fit for purpose.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:28 pm)Jamie M End of life vehicles are very rarely worth more than a few thousand in scrap
(24 Nov 2020, 1:39 pm)Andreos1 It has been an issue for years.
Well before GCT even came about as an operator. They saw the opportunity to get in there and took advantage.
Classic and Stanley (before the takeover primarily) were running Nexus contracted stuff 20 odd years back.
OK had contracted work before their takeover too.
This isn't a new thing at all.
I'd argue that the issue of day tickets/passes has highlighted the problem, but this was the case as long ago as ANE operating the Washington locals on an evening. That must be getting on 10 years ago.
RE the engine/drivetrain stuff. I forgot about the B5LH. It would be interesting to see how that goes and the impact (financial or otherwise). Appreciate we won't get to see figures, but if it was a positive impact - I'd hazard a guess it would be rolled out across those vehicles.
Re-regulation
(24 Nov 2020, 1:28 pm)Jamie M End of life vehicles are very rarely worth more than a few thousand in scrap
(24 Nov 2020, 1:39 pm)Andreos1 It has been an issue for years.
Well before GCT even came about as an operator. They saw the opportunity to get in there and took advantage.
Classic and Stanley (before the takeover primarily) were running Nexus contracted stuff 20 odd years back.
OK had contracted work before their takeover too.
This isn't a new thing at all.
I'd argue that the issue of day tickets/passes has highlighted the problem, but this was the case as long ago as ANE operating the Washington locals on an evening. That must be getting on 10 years ago.
RE the engine/drivetrain stuff. I forgot about the B5LH. It would be interesting to see how that goes and the impact (financial or otherwise). Appreciate we won't get to see figures, but if it was a positive impact - I'd hazard a guess it would be rolled out across those vehicles.
Re-regulation
(24 Nov 2020, 1:51 pm)streetdeckfan I suppose it depends on how you define 'end of life', I think in the future we're going to start seeing vehicles hold on their value a bit better now that there doesn't seem to be any more disability regulations on the horizon, unless they decide to outlaw diesel buses completely that is!
I'm not saying it's a new thing, just that it seems GCT have taken over pretty much all of GNE's evening services at the near enough the same time, where previously they won the tender and operated their own evening services, so from a passenger perspective it was just business as usual.
(24 Nov 2020, 1:51 pm)streetdeckfan I suppose it depends on how you define 'end of life', I think in the future we're going to start seeing vehicles hold on their value a bit better now that there doesn't seem to be any more disability regulations on the horizon, unless they decide to outlaw diesel buses completely that is!
I'm not saying it's a new thing, just that it seems GCT have taken over pretty much all of GNE's evening services at the near enough the same time, where previously they won the tender and operated their own evening services, so from a passenger perspective it was just business as usual.
(24 Nov 2020, 3:45 pm)Andreos1 Appreciate we are going off the topic highlighted in the thread title, but that's down to GNE. They could offer those services on a commercial basis (using the enhanced BSOG to help them. If they really need it) . They've done that in the past when GCT won some work (I think it was the 97). It didn't suit the powers that be, that work which had been subsidised for years was then contracted to GCT.
In a sudden about turn, GNE decided the service was viable and didn't need a subsidy of any sort.
Similar behavior has seen the 79, 238 and another service (can't remember the number - 493 perhaps?) which operated between Waterview Park and Houghton switch back and forth. It suited them to run the Penshaw to Houghton section under commercial auspises, then it didn't. Then it did. Then it didn't.
As a result, passengers are left in a situation where GNE tickets aren't available on the JH daytime service which replaced the recently axed 238 - but can use them on the GNE operated 79a service which runs a handful of times on an evening.
It's a mess.
(24 Nov 2020, 3:45 pm)Andreos1 Appreciate we are going off the topic highlighted in the thread title, but that's down to GNE. They could offer those services on a commercial basis (using the enhanced BSOG to help them. If they really need it) . They've done that in the past when GCT won some work (I think it was the 97). It didn't suit the powers that be, that work which had been subsidised for years was then contracted to GCT.
In a sudden about turn, GNE decided the service was viable and didn't need a subsidy of any sort.
Similar behavior has seen the 79, 238 and another service (can't remember the number - 493 perhaps?) which operated between Waterview Park and Houghton switch back and forth. It suited them to run the Penshaw to Houghton section under commercial auspises, then it didn't. Then it did. Then it didn't.
As a result, passengers are left in a situation where GNE tickets aren't available on the JH daytime service which replaced the recently axed 238 - but can use them on the GNE operated 79a service which runs a handful of times on an evening.
It's a mess.
(09 Nov 2020, 10:35 am)Michael 5305 has been withdrawn from service, according to the fleet update on the GNE site.
Start of the Crusader Citaro's going?
(09 Nov 2020, 10:35 am)Michael 5305 has been withdrawn from service, according to the fleet update on the GNE site.
Start of the Crusader Citaro's going?
