Customer Service thread

North East Buses Local Bus Scene Operations, Management & Infrastructure Customer Service thread

Customer Service thread

Customer Service thread

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Andreos1

14,202

04 Apr 2018, 12:54 pm #230

(04 Apr 2018, 12:16 pm)Chris 1 Do you know what the difference is between a trainee driver, and an an apprentice driver? Does this mean there is no longer a bond for the driver?

On the face of it, it appears to be a good thing. I'm just not sure if I'm being unduly cynical in wondering if this is just a way for Stagecoach to get someone else to pay their training costs?

Interestingly there are now similar schemes in the haulage industry.

There have been incentive schemes in the haulage industry for a good few years, even before the latest apprenticeship revision.
One particular scheme targeting under 21 year olds was rolled out about 15 years ago, but seemed to fizzle out.

With the new Apprenticeship scheme for bus/coach/train drivers (it's the same, just with specialist elements for each sector - such as loading vehicle, delivering customer service etc), all employers who pay more than £3m in wages, must contribute to a levy.
They can claim moneys back, if they have staff who undertake an Apprenticeship programme.

So in Stagecoach's example, they pay the levy, recruit drivers under this programme, train them, put them through the qualification side of things and pay them a wage.
How they or others then manage any loyalty or penalise leavers, is up to them.
I can't comment on how Stagecoach are managing their process or measures being put in to place to manage loyalty.

I suppose the difference between the current and new scheme, is the requirement to do a formal qualification within the initial period of employment.
Appreciate things differ between groups, but it could be CPC, driver training and then an NVQ at some point further down the line.

edit: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...d_Rail.pdf
Qualification element that needs to be completed.

Edited 04 Apr 2018, 1:03 pm by Andreos1.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'

Andreos1

04 Apr 2018, 12:54 pm #230

(04 Apr 2018, 12:16 pm)Chris 1 Do you know what the difference is between a trainee driver, and an an apprentice driver? Does this mean there is no longer a bond for the driver?

On the face of it, it appears to be a good thing. I'm just not sure if I'm being unduly cynical in wondering if this is just a way for Stagecoach to get someone else to pay their training costs?

Interestingly there are now similar schemes in the haulage industry.

There have been incentive schemes in the haulage industry for a good few years, even before the latest apprenticeship revision.
One particular scheme targeting under 21 year olds was rolled out about 15 years ago, but seemed to fizzle out.

With the new Apprenticeship scheme for bus/coach/train drivers (it's the same, just with specialist elements for each sector - such as loading vehicle, delivering customer service etc), all employers who pay more than £3m in wages, must contribute to a levy.
They can claim moneys back, if they have staff who undertake an Apprenticeship programme.

So in Stagecoach's example, they pay the levy, recruit drivers under this programme, train them, put them through the qualification side of things and pay them a wage.
How they or others then manage any loyalty or penalise leavers, is up to them.
I can't comment on how Stagecoach are managing their process or measures being put in to place to manage loyalty.

I suppose the difference between the current and new scheme, is the requirement to do a formal qualification within the initial period of employment.
Appreciate things differ between groups, but it could be CPC, driver training and then an NVQ at some point further down the line.

edit: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...d_Rail.pdf
Qualification element that needs to be completed.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'

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Messages In This Thread

Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 16 Apr 2014, 8:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 16 Apr 2014, 8:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 18 Apr 2014, 8:47 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 18 Apr 2014, 9:06 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 18 Apr 2014, 9:10 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 18 Apr 2014, 9:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 18 Apr 2014, 9:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 18 Apr 2014, 9:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 18 Apr 2014, 9:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Roland Pratt - 19 Apr 2014, 1:49 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 19 Apr 2014, 5:29 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Davey Bowyer - 18 Apr 2014, 9:54 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 May 2014, 6:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 May 2014, 6:13 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 May 2014, 6:37 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 15 May 2014, 10:35 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 01 May 2014, 9:33 pm

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 15 May 2014, 2:38 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by robisdave15 - 15 May 2014, 6:13 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 15 May 2014, 6:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 15 May 2014, 6:32 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 15 May 2014, 7:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 23 May 2014, 10:51 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by northern156 - 10 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by RM2186 - 10 Jun 2014, 1:32 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by northern156 - 10 Jun 2014, 1:48 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by RM2186 - 11 Jun 2014, 1:59 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by northern156 - 10 Jun 2014, 2:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 10 Jun 2014, 3:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 10 Jun 2014, 3:24 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 10 Jun 2014, 4:31 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BJ10VUS - 10 Jun 2014, 9:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 11 Jun 2014, 3:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 11 Jun 2014, 6:12 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 11 Jun 2014, 6:28 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BJ10VUS - 25 Jul 2014, 6:30 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 13 Jul 2014, 9:13 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Michael - 13 Jul 2014, 9:19 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 13 Jul 2014, 9:24 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 13 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 13 Jul 2014, 9:29 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 13 Jul 2014, 9:20 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 13 Jul 2014, 9:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by idiot - 14 Jul 2014, 8:18 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by cbma06 - 14 Jul 2014, 9:01 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by MurdnunoC - 14 Jul 2014, 9:44 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 14 Jul 2014, 9:47 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by MurdnunoC - 14 Jul 2014, 9:57 am

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 14 Jul 2014, 10:08 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 14 Jul 2014, 10:25 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 14 Jul 2014, 10:57 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Jul 2014, 2:23 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Roland Pratt - 25 Jul 2014, 2:37 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Jul 2014, 3:02 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 25 Jul 2014, 3:02 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 25 Jul 2014, 3:19 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by VolvoMarkII - 25 Jul 2014, 5:26 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 25 Jul 2014, 6:45 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 25 Jul 2014, 8:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Jul 2014, 9:49 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 25 Jul 2014, 9:56 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Jul 2014, 9:48 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 25 Jul 2014, 11:21 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 26 Jul 2014, 7:23 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 26 Jul 2014, 7:44 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 26 Jul 2014, 7:53 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 26 Jul 2014, 8:02 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by L469 YVK - 01 Aug 2014, 4:33 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 Aug 2014, 4:40 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by palatine3833 - 26 Jul 2014, 8:35 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 26 Jul 2014, 8:39 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by palatine3833 - 26 Jul 2014, 8:33 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 26 Jul 2014, 9:13 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 11:33 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by MurdnunoC - 01 Aug 2014, 12:24 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 12:26 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by MurdnunoC - 01 Aug 2014, 2:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 2:50 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 01 Aug 2014, 3:23 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 01 Aug 2014, 4:44 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 Aug 2014, 4:52 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 02 Aug 2014, 9:14 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Drifter60 - 01 Aug 2014, 2:08 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 Aug 2014, 1:42 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 01 Aug 2014, 2:05 pm

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 2:09 pm

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 3:26 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 01 Aug 2014, 3:32 pm

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Aug 2014, 3:47 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 01 Aug 2014, 4:29 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by citaro5284 - 01 Aug 2014, 5:41 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 02 Aug 2014, 5:21 pm

Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 02 Aug 2014, 6:03 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 02 Aug 2014, 6:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BJ10VUS - 02 Aug 2014, 8:03 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 02 Aug 2014, 8:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 02 Aug 2014, 8:10 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 02 Aug 2014, 8:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Roland Pratt - 03 Aug 2014, 8:36 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 07 Sep 2014, 8:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by L469 YVK - 07 Sep 2014, 9:11 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 07 Sep 2014, 9:18 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 07 Sep 2014, 9:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 09 Sep 2014, 10:26 am

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 09 Sep 2014, 10:39 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by gtom - 09 Sep 2014, 7:54 pm

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 09 Sep 2014, 8:08 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by gtom - 09 Sep 2014, 10:40 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 23 Sep 2014, 5:21 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 07 Oct 2014, 4:08 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Michael - 07 Oct 2014, 6:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 07 Oct 2014, 7:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 07 Oct 2014, 7:25 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 07 Oct 2014, 7:30 pm

Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 07 Oct 2014, 6:13 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 07 Oct 2014, 6:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 13 Oct 2014, 5:16 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 07 Nov 2014, 10:34 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 09 Nov 2014, 6:00 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 09 Nov 2014, 7:47 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2014, 6:45 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 12 Nov 2014, 8:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 12 Nov 2014, 8:47 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 12 Nov 2014, 8:59 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2014, 9:13 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 12 Nov 2014, 9:28 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2014, 9:38 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 12 Nov 2014, 9:50 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 17 Nov 2014, 2:42 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2014, 10:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 12 Nov 2014, 10:29 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2014, 10:41 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 13 Nov 2014, 5:50 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 13 Nov 2014, 6:09 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 13 Nov 2014, 6:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by citaro5284 - 15 Nov 2014, 8:41 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by eezypeazy - 15 Nov 2014, 9:24 am

Re: RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 15 Nov 2014, 9:29 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 29 Nov 2014, 5:32 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 01 Dec 2014, 5:35 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 08 Dec 2014, 8:48 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 08 Dec 2014, 8:51 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 08 Dec 2014, 9:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by cbma06 - 12 Dec 2014, 6:59 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by cbma06 - 12 Dec 2014, 7:08 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 12 Dec 2014, 8:50 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 12 Dec 2014, 8:51 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 12 Dec 2014, 11:10 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 12 Dec 2014, 9:09 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 13 Dec 2014, 9:15 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 30 Dec 2014, 3:51 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 30 Dec 2014, 3:57 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 30 Dec 2014, 4:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 30 Dec 2014, 4:28 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 30 Dec 2014, 4:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 30 Dec 2014, 9:56 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 30 Dec 2014, 10:07 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 31 Dec 2014, 7:35 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 31 Dec 2014, 9:39 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 30 Dec 2014, 4:31 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 30 Dec 2014, 9:19 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by mb134 - 30 Dec 2014, 9:24 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 30 Dec 2014, 10:02 pm

Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 22 Feb 2015, 3:33 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 22 Feb 2015, 3:35 pm

Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 22 Feb 2015, 3:37 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 22 Feb 2015, 3:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 20 Mar 2015, 6:09 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Michael - 31 Mar 2015, 8:41 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 26 May 2015, 12:38 pm

Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 28 May 2015, 9:48 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Malarkey - 28 May 2015, 9:54 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 28 May 2015, 10:15 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Davie - 28 May 2015, 10:30 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 02 Jun 2015, 8:34 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 02 Jun 2015, 8:37 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 03 Jun 2015, 9:25 am

Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 16 Jun 2015, 11:08 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 19 Jun 2015, 6:24 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Jimmi - 19 Jun 2015, 6:43 pm

Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 31 Jul 2015, 4:41 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 11 Aug 2015, 6:51 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by citaro5284 - 11 Aug 2015, 6:53 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by S813 FVK - 11 Aug 2015, 6:54 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BusLoverMum - 11 Aug 2015, 6:59 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BusLoverMum - 11 Aug 2015, 6:57 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 11 Aug 2015, 7:00 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BusLoverMum - 11 Aug 2015, 7:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 11 Aug 2015, 7:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by omnicity4659 - 13 Aug 2015, 1:09 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 07 Sep 2015, 6:10 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 07 Sep 2015, 7:55 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by R852 PRG - 07 Sep 2015, 8:01 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by northern156 - 07 Sep 2015, 9:04 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by citaro5284 - 08 Sep 2015, 4:06 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by omnicity4659 - 26 Nov 2015, 3:32 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BusLoverMum - 26 Nov 2015, 3:56 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by omnicity4659 - 26 Nov 2015, 4:01 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by BusLoverMum - 26 Nov 2015, 4:09 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by omnicity4659 - 26 Nov 2015, 4:30 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 23 Dec 2016, 5:49 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 23 Dec 2016, 7:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tom - 23 Dec 2016, 8:34 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 23 Dec 2016, 11:16 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Ambassador - 23 Dec 2016, 10:23 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 24 Dec 2016, 11:23 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Michael - 23 Dec 2016, 10:27 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Dan - 09 Apr 2017, 7:09 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 09 Apr 2017, 8:15 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by markydh - 09 Apr 2017, 12:19 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 09 Apr 2017, 12:25 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by James101 - 09 Apr 2017, 6:14 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 09 Apr 2017, 7:52 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by James101 - 09 Apr 2017, 7:56 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 09 Apr 2017, 7:58 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Ambassador - 09 Apr 2017, 11:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by LeeCalder - 10 Apr 2017, 6:19 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 10 Apr 2017, 8:55 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 10 Apr 2017, 9:32 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 10 Apr 2017, 9:40 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by markydh - 10 Apr 2017, 10:42 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 07 Dec 2017, 6:50 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 28 Mar 2018, 5:45 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Chris 1 - 29 Mar 2018, 11:16 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 30 Mar 2018, 9:32 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by James101 - 30 Mar 2018, 9:39 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 31 Mar 2018, 1:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Chris 1 - 04 Apr 2018, 12:16 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 04 Apr 2018, 12:54 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 12 Jul 2019, 5:36 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by James101 - 24 Jul 2019, 9:30 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by deanmachine - 24 Jul 2019, 10:41 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by James101 - 24 Jul 2019, 11:02 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Jul 2019, 8:00 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 16 Aug 2019, 6:46 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 16 Aug 2019, 9:16 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 24 Aug 2019, 8:59 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Tyne_Traveller - 25 Aug 2019, 8:38 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 25 Aug 2019, 3:26 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 26 Aug 2019, 11:04 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 26 Aug 2019, 3:03 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 23 Jun 2020, 8:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by deanmachine - 30 Jul 2020, 7:05 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Andreos1 - 30 Jul 2020, 8:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by tyresmoke - 30 Jul 2020, 7:38 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by deanmachine - 30 Jul 2020, 8:17 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Rob44 - 31 Jul 2020, 10:40 am

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 14 Aug 2021, 1:22 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by Adrian - 30 Mar 2022, 12:16 pm

RE: Customer Service thread - by streetdeckfan - 30 Mar 2022, 4:39 pm

RE: Complaint Stories - by Adrian - 18 Apr 2014, 8:23 pm