I see Geoff Marshall has done a video titled "Britain's Buses at their Best, with comments from some of Go Ahead MD's and our favourite designer

https://youtu.be/xubslJLmbZA?si=flTY-mYaVhPyLjA6

Quite enjoyed this but quite selective of its choices and ignoring the reality of many regional operations.

High spec buses, good cooperation with the council, strong management and good reliable frequency.

So basically the opposite of our lot up here. The stark difference between Go South Coast and Go North East is quite alarming

(05 Sep 2024, 8:05 pm)Ambassador wrote Quite enjoyed this but quite selective of its choices and ignoring the reality of many regional operations.

High spec buses, good cooperation with the council, strong management and good reliable frequency.

So basically the opposite of our lot up here. The stark difference between Go South Coast and Go North East is quite alarming

Having travelled in some of the areas featured, the experience is often much more positive than that which is up here, which just feels like the towel was thrown in ages ago and now feels as if everything is just surviving rather than thriving.

(05 Sep 2024, 11:22 pm)Jimmi wrote Having travelled in some of the areas featured, the experience is often much more positive than that which is up here , which just feels like the towel was thrown in ages ago and now feels as if everything is just surviving rather than thriving.

Years ago, I'd done some work down in Oxfordshire, Hampshire or somewhere down south. 
Did the whole trip on public transport and got some gricing in when I had a spare few hours.
Outlined it all on this forum and spoke about how everything worked like clockwork (even the rural bits) for each stage - until I got off the train at Durham and needed a 20/20a/X20 off the bus station. 

The OP of this thread didn't seem to appreciate how it all fell down at the last leg. For some strange reason we never officially found out why... 

But getting back to the Bib, there's some quite valid concerns about the state of local transport, but it's definitely not a new thing.
It's always been pretty sh!te, it's just there's no titivations papering over the cracks like there was previously.

(05 Sep 2024, 8:05 pm)Ambassador wrote Quite enjoyed this but quite selective of its choices and ignoring the reality of many regional operations.

High spec buses, good cooperation with the council, strong management and good reliable frequency.

So basically the opposite of our lot up here. The stark difference between Go South Coast and Go North East is quite alarming

Geoff Marshall doesn't make it clear, but I'm suspecting it's a commissioned piece, given it's got the 10 Percent Club branding all over it, plus an extra helping of Ray Stenning?

It's a good video I think, but I'd said the same thing when I watched it last night. It's very much Britain's Buses with rose-tinted spectacles. If someone unassuming watched that, decided to go and try out a 21 on Durham Road, they'd be in for a real treat. The best they could hope for is an unloved Angel Streetdeck, normally with an interior left like it's been in a fight. The worst? An ex-London B9, with seats providing a comfort level of sitting on a cold stone slab. They're hardly going to run back!

An evident 'them versus us' relationship between operators and councils, probably since the QCS stuff, has inevitably held us back. Add an uninspiring set of leadership teams across operators and a backward thinking Transport Authority, then you really have got the recipe for disaster. He has his faults, but someone like Gilbert is probably what is missing, bringing all of this supposed-partnership working together.

(06 Sep 2024, 12:00 am)Andreos1 wrote Years ago, I'd done some work down in Oxfordshire, Hampshire or somewhere down south. 
Did the whole trip on public transport and got some gricing in when I had a spare few hours.
Outlined it all on this forum and spoke about how everything worked like clockwork (even the rural bits) for each stage - until I got off the train at Durham and needed a 20/20a/X20 off the bus station. 

The OP of this thread didn't seem to appreciate how it all fell down at the last leg. For some strange reason we never officially found out why... 

But getting back to the Bib, there's some quite valid concerns about the state of local transport, but it's definitely not a new thing.
It's always been pretty sh!te, it's just there's no titivations papering over the cracks like there was previously.

It still very much does fall down. You only have to look as far as the Q3 fiasco for a modern example of that. Or even the 85/2A, both leaving the Galleries for Biddick on an evening, within 2 minutes of each other, leaving almost an hour gap until the next.

I don't think that'll change either, not until networks start being designed for customers, not for operational convenience.

(06 Sep 2024, 6:19 pm)Adrian wrote Geoff Marshall doesn't make it clear, but I'm suspecting it's a commissioned piece, given it's got the 10 Percent Club branding all over it, plus an extra helping of Ray Stenning?

It's a good video I think, but I'd said the same thing when I watched it last night. It's very much Britain's Buses with rose-tinted spectacles. If someone unassuming watched that, decided to go and try out a 21 on Durham Road, they'd be in for a real treat. The best they could hope for is an unloved Angel Streetdeck, normally with an interior left like it's been in a fight. The worst? An ex-London B9, with seats providing a comfort level of sitting on a cold stone slab. They're hardly going to run back!

An evident 'them versus us' relationship between operators and councils, probably since the QCS stuff, has inevitably held us back. Add an uninspiring set of leadership teams across operators and a backward thinking Transport Authority, then you really have got the recipe for disaster. He has his faults, but someone like Gilbert is probably what is missing, bringing all of this supposed-partnership working together.


It still very much does fall down. You only have to look as far as the Q3 fiasco for a modern example of that. Or even the 85/2A, both leaving the Galleries for Biddick on an evening, within 2 minutes of each other, leaving almost an hour gap until the next.

I don't think that'll change either, not until networks start being designed for customers, not for operational convenience.

Funny you used the 21 as an example, as I had to do just that on Monday afternoon as a boobie prize after missing both the X12 & X21 at Gateshead owing to late running 93 and traffic around Gateshead Interchange - sure enough, ex London B9TL, seats were okay but felt completely cold and depressing with litter everywhere and windows scratched and naturally ran late (not helped by having a driver changeover at Gateshead) meaning my gamble at catching the 18:00 7 off Durham failed, so had to wait half an hour for next one, an ex Manchester Sapphire E300, slightly better experience although exterior looked a mess, was on time at least on this occasion.

Communication is incredibly poor amongst passengers, over the next fortnight, there's overnight closures at Rushyford, meaning the 7 is unable to serve the stops between Rushyford and Aycliffe Town Centre, this started on Wednesday, on Monday afternoon, I saw no notices on my local bus stop at least, so either it was done on Tuesday at earliest or some stops were missed (wasn't any notices at Aycliffe Town Centre tonight) and for info online, nothing at all from Arriva, in fact, the only post seemingly made was in a local Facebook group... by myself!

My experiences sound much akin to Andreos1's, usually minimal issues elsewhere, but if I try to use local buses (especially if a connection is required), if often goes wrong, often a result of poor timetabling.

I watched the video and I thought it was very good. I treated It for what it is, a video showing what buses can be like, and in my experience of all the operators and areas featured, it was right. Yes it's a 10% club job, but between the lines it's really a subtle criticism of the dross served up by some companies and local authority partners.

After watching it, what become apparent to me is the issue in the North East is main routes are treated like secondary routes and secondary routes are treated appallingly. If you go to places from that video like Harrogate, Brighton and Bournemouth, the main routes have new, high spec buses. The secondary routes use cascaded vehicles and aren't as frequent. Not unusual.
The difference being they are given the same care and attention in terms of cleanliness and how the network fits together.  It might not be what everybody wants (who wouldn't want a 10 minutes service instead of 30), but at least it makes sense and at least the buses are presentable and clean. Some of Brightons older buses are in better nick than the GNE equivalents!

The level of local authority roadside information and general publicity is quite frankly atrocious. I challenge anybody to go to the Brandling Arms stop on Gosforth High Street and tell me in 20 seconds when the first X bus to Newcastle is. You can't, as for some reason each individual route has its own table instead of combined. I've genuinely seen people "give up" while trying to read that very display. I know people dunk on Ray Stenning, but he's right when he's said previously that the stop is a shop window. They should be better.

Same with commercial operators. How are they getting the message out about the service they offer? Are they just expecting people to "know" where to look? Are they getting in people's faces about the services they offer? Why aren't there comprehensive timetable books like Morebus can do? Arriva don't make many timetable changes, there is no excuse why they couldn't do something similar for South East Northumberland - They are doing that in Medway!. Why aren't leaflets available on buses like they are in places such as Reading, Brighton and Nottingham? Why can't I pick up a timetable from a timetable rack, like at Harrogate Bus Station?

Granted, Stagecoach at least do something. But did you know that Arriva has actually produced a piece of publicity for the X18 service? Neither did I until I saw it in a leaflet holder at the customer desk in
.........Newcastle Centeal Station of all places. Nothing on Buses and nothing at Haymarket. That would make too much sense wouldn't it?

Ticketing is like something from the dark ages. We are one step removed from blackboards and chalk. The North East is still faffing around with Smart cards, an elderly technology. It's  2024 and you still can't use a bank card to tap in and out of the Metro. Meanwhile, as the video demonstrates, Leicester are already doing Bus Multi-operator Tap on Tap Off with daily and weekly capping. Leicester! It's not even a traditional PTE area. Nottingham has the Robin Hood Card. West Yorkshire has the MetroCard app, which actually works seamlessly across Bus and Train. What have we got?

This may seem unfair, but I truly believe that most of those in senior positions, making the final decision about public transport and buses in the North East, be that operators, elected officials or in the public sector, don't really care how it all fits together as they don't use it. There are a couple of exceptions I know of, but for the most part, I think that's true.

At the end of the day we are talking about something as fundamental as a human being able to get from one place to another. It's not hard to get the basics right to at least make it easier for that to happen.

(06 Sep 2024, 10:29 pm)Jimmi wrote Funny you used the 21 as an example, as I had to do just that on Monday afternoon as a boobie prize after missing both the X12 & X21 at Gateshead owing to late running 93 and traffic around Gateshead Interchange - sure enough, ex London B9TL, seats were okay but felt completely cold and depressing with litter everywhere and windows scratched and naturally ran late (not helped by having a driver changeover at Gateshead) meaning my gamble at catching the 18:00 7 off Durham failed, so had to wait half an hour for next one, an ex Manchester Sapphire E300, slightly better experience although exterior looked a mess, was on time at least on this occasion.

Communication is incredibly poor amongst passengers, over the next fortnight, there's overnight closures at Rushyford, meaning the 7 is unable to serve the stops between Rushyford and Aycliffe Town Centre, this started on Wednesday, on Monday afternoon, I saw no notices on my local bus stop at least, so either it was done on Tuesday at earliest or some stops were missed (wasn't any notices at Aycliffe Town Centre tonight) and for info online, nothing at all from Arriva, in fact, the only post seemingly made was in a local Facebook group... by myself!

My experiences sound much akin to Andreos1's, usually minimal issues elsewhere, but if I try to use local buses (especially if a connection is required), if often goes wrong, often a result of poor timetabling.

Communication is awful, and the sad thing is even when you point something out, some operators are very blunt in refusing to do anything about it these days. The X1s were diverting via Albany for a few days, due to the closure of Springwell Road. It doesn't miss any stops, but absolutely nothing about this in the app or website, yet customer services couldn't see why this might be useful information to customers. Especially neurodivergant customers.

This isn't just a GNE thing though. I've had similar when I lived in an Arriva area. Stagecoach on the other hand seem to be quite good at it.

(07 Sep 2024, 5:13 am)DeltaMan wrote I watched the video and I thought it was very good. I treated It for what it is, a video showing what buses can be like, and in my experience of all the operators and areas featured, it was right. Yes it's a 10% club job, but between the lines it's really a subtle criticism of the dross served up by some companies and local authority partners.

After watching it, what become apparent to me is the issue in the North East is main routes are treated like secondary routes and secondary routes are treated appallingly. If you go to places from that video like Harrogate, Brighton and Bournemouth, the main routes have new, high spec buses. The secondary routes use cascaded vehicles and aren't as frequent. Not unusual.
The difference being they are given the same care and attention in terms of cleanliness and how the network fits together.  It might not be what everybody wants (who wouldn't want a 10 minutes service instead of 30), but at least it makes sense and at least the buses are presentable and clean. Some of Brightons older buses are in better nick than the GNE equivalents!

The level of local authority roadside information and general publicity is quite frankly atrocious. I challenge anybody to go to the Brandling Arms stop on Gosforth High Street and tell me in 20 seconds when the first X bus to Newcastle is. You can't, as for some reason each individual route has its own table instead of combined. I've genuinely seen people "give up" while trying to read that very display. I know people dunk on Ray Stenning, but he's right when he's said previously that the stop is a shop window. They should be better.

Same with commercial operators. How are they getting the message out about the service they offer? Are they just expecting people to "know" where to look? Are they getting in people's faces about the services they offer? Why aren't there comprehensive timetable books like Morebus can do? Arriva don't make many timetable changes, there is no excuse why they couldn't do something similar for South East Northumberland - They are doing that in Medway!. Why aren't leaflets available on buses like they are in places such as Reading, Brighton and Nottingham? Why can't I pick up a timetable from a timetable rack, like at Harrogate Bus Station?

Granted, Stagecoach at least do something. But did you know that Arriva has actually produced a piece of publicity for the X18 service? Neither did I until I saw it in a leaflet holder at the customer desk in
.........Newcastle Centeal Station of all places. Nothing on Buses and nothing at Haymarket. That would make too much sense wouldn't it?

Ticketing is like something from the dark ages. We are one step removed from blackboards and chalk. The North East is still faffing around with Smart cards, an elderly technology. It's  2024 and you still can't use a bank card to tap in and out of the Metro. Meanwhile, as the video demonstrates, Leicester are already doing Bus Multi-operator Tap on Tap Off with daily and weekly capping. Leicester! It's not even a traditional PTE area. Nottingham has the Robin Hood Card. West Yorkshire has the MetroCard app, which actually works seamlessly across Bus and Train. What have we got?

This may seem unfair, but I truly believe that most of those in senior positions, making the final decision about public transport and buses in the North East, be that operators, elected officials or in the public sector, don't really care how it all fits together as they don't use it. There are a couple of exceptions I know of, but for the most part, I think that's true.

At the end of the day we are talking about something as fundamental as a human being able to get from one place to another. It's not hard to get the basics right to at least make it easier for that to happen.

I think you make some really good points.

The likes of Go Ahead's operations in Brighton and Bournemouth work, because everyone is invested in the idea that bus travel can be better, and they're led by people with an eye for detail. Brighton have a really modern fleet, of course, but you can still work on to ensure an older fleet is both clean and well-presented. It's a matter how the management value it's importance.

I don't rate Ray Stenning as this saviour figure as some do, but I'd agree that he's 100% right in what he says about the bus stop being a shop window, and as a bus user, I agree that they should be a lot better. Having a clean shelter with a clear & well presented timetable would be a start, but it needs to go beyond that and make them a relatively comfortable space to wait. I remember the old style stone shelters all having wooden benches in them, whereas nowadays, you've got an uncomfortable strip of plastic if you're lucky. 

Even bus stations could be a lot better. You go to somewhere like Leeds, where Transdev have been allowed to put their stamp on it, and it's great for customers. Extremely clear in layout, and there's no shortage of customer information and even staff on hand to help. You go to somewhere like Haymarket, and you're greeted with broken seats and a timetable rack locked away in an unstaffed hut.

On a final point, there was a number of mentions in that video of partnership working. I actually believe that is genuine too, and there is a desire to work together to achieve the best outcome for customers. Like I said in my earlier post, I think up here there's been a them vs us attitude for far too long, and it's inevitably held us back. I'd like to see that change, but I think there'd need to be some big changes at some operators and the combined authority first.