(29 Jun 2022, 7:22 am)ALavery wrote I think they could definitely have made something really cool out of the new livery on the 56. Also im not sure if its been discussed already but how come the 56 and 60 just stayed the 56 and 60?

Perhaps because the N21 goes to the University, and a different starting point in Newcastle, whereas with the 56 and 60, they just extended the timetable overnight, ergo no real need to change the number.

(29 Jun 2022, 7:22 am)ALavery wrote I think they could definitely have made something really cool out of the new livery on the 56. Also im not sure if its been discussed already but how come the 56 and 60 just stayed the 56 and 60?

No idea and to be honest, I'm not sure even the most optimistic members in here ever thought they would work.

It needed to be a variation of both routes imo. Someone living in Seaham and working at Nissan could be at work within 10mins via the A19 - whether that's driving or using some sort of car share.
Two buses via the world ahead or at the end of a long shift, can't even begin to compete. Regardless of the branding or promotion attached to its livery.

(29 Jun 2022, 2:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote No idea and to be honest, I'm not sure even the most optimistic members in here ever thought they would work.

It needed to be a variation of both routes imo. Someone living in Seaham and working at Nissan could be at work within 10mins via the A19 - whether that's driving or using some sort of car share.
Two buses via the world ahead or at the end of a long shift, can't even begin to compete. Regardless of the branding or promotion attached to its livery.

Why? The 56 gets a good load over it's whole route over night, hence why it's still running mostly come the changes, seems to work.

Night buses need looking at as a whole across the region... I'm sure that I've said it before, but bus operators struggle to meet the needs of those who travel late at night on Fridays and Saturdays, with roads heading out of the city almost as busy as during the day up until 2-3am, so what chance have they got at getting it right every other night?

I'm regularly driving around at night and there is some demand from looking at the numbers of cars and taxis on the road, not just for buses but for the likes of Metro too.

(29 Jun 2022, 5:03 pm)omnicity4659 wrote Night buses need looking at as a whole across the region... I'm sure that I've said it before, but bus operators struggle to meet the needs of those who travel late at night on Fridays and Saturdays, with roads heading out of the city almost as busy as during the day up until 2-3am, so what chance have they got at getting it right every other night?

I'm regularly driving around at night and there is some demand from looking at the numbers of cars and taxis on the road, not just for buses but for the likes of Metro too.

This has been said before and does hit the nail on the head in my opinion. 

I drive so don’t use buses for work, visiting the shops etc. as I take the car. So when I do get the bus, it’s general for leisure activities whereby I either want a drink or parking isn’t feasible. This of course tends to be either in the evenings or weekends. Since the 65 launched evening and Sunday services last September, I’ve used it a couple of times in the evening to travel to/from Seaham on the last buses at approx 10:30. I’ve also done a couple of journeys to/from Durham once on a Saturday early evening and a few times on a Sunday/Bank Holiday. 

Now all of these times of days are facing cuts, evenings are scrapped altogether, Saturday after 3pm reduced it seems and Sundays going two hourly. I understand ‘buses can’t run empty’ but it just seems to me that by cutting where they have you’re reducing all of those key leisure times - such as evening/night life economy, weekend tourism etc. 

The system is flawed.

You can throw as much money at drivers as you want, but getting more of them to work lates or overnight is a "bold strategy" to say the least!

(29 Jun 2022, 4:35 pm)deanmachine wrote Why? The 56 gets a good load over it's whole route over night, hence why it's still running mostly come the changes, seems to work.

Aye, but they thought the 60 would work on a night.
It was never going to work based on the route it takes and the places it goes to/goes through.

If there's enough people to make a bus from Seaham to Nissan work, then it needs to be as quick or there abouts as a car.
Whatever the N56 does right, isn't because of its marketing  Its because of the route its taken since its 187/188 days and the fact Nissan was built where it was.

(29 Jun 2022, 6:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote Aye, but they thought the 60 would work on a night.
It was never going to work based on the route it takes and the places it goes to/goes through.

If there's enough people to make a bus from Seaham to Nissan work, then it needs to be as quick or there abouts as a car.
Whatever the N56 does right, isn't because of its marketing  Its because of the route its taken since its 187/188 days and the fact Nissan was built where it was.

I'm suprised they havent tried a night bus 10, 27 or X1, espically the 27 seen as theres no night metros.

There's no demand for nightbuses imo. As a bus carrying 20 passengers won't pick up anyone up and has to get back to Newcastle or whatever no money there.

I know I've mentioned it before but it's the sort of place where DRT would work but not as it is now. Work it on the basis of you book a taxi, and it groups passengers going to same place or thereabouts and everyone gets the same minibus or a 7 seater if it's 3 of groups 2 etc. for a discounted price with further discounts for groups if they all go to the same stop similar to a taxi.

It's the halfway house and certainly better than what happens now where you have to wait 45 minutes where 20 taxis are going to Whitley Bay and back half the time carrying nothing.

(29 Jun 2022, 6:19 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote I'm suprised they havent tried a night bus 10, 27 or X1, espically the 27 seen as theres no night metros.

Where would the demand for those routes come from? Apart from the nighttime economy in Newcastle, they wouldn't pass by any major employers who have a 24hr operation - like Nissan or Amazon.
It's telling that those sites are all near main roads (to aid distribution of goods) and it's also telling that public transport operators don't use the same road networks to help aid the workforce.

If there's a nighttime network that's going to work, operators need to think outside the box and maybe even offer something which is different to the daytime network.

Whilst a Seaham - Sunderland via Ryhope Road works during the day - a variation of that route in peaks or on a night would offer so much more.
60X: A morning and evening peak version of the 60 via the A19 and Doxford International in to Sunderland. 
60N: Night time version via Nissan and Follingsby to Newcastle would offer so much more than what we see now and would could play a part in making a 24hr network successful.

Couple that with say a 27X and 27N between Shields and Newcastle via Monkton Business Park and/or Boldon Business Park, Nissan and/or Amazon and you've instantly opened up a network that has the potential to work during the day, peaks and night.

(29 Jun 2022, 7:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote Where would the demand for those routes come from? Apart from the nighttime economy in Newcastle, they wouldn't pass by any major employers who have a 24hr operation - like Nissan or Amazon.
It's telling that those sites are all near main roads (to aid distribution of goods) and it's also telling that public transport operators don't use the same road networks to help aid the workforce.

If there's a nighttime network that's going to work, operators need to think outside the box and maybe even offer something which is different to the daytime network.

Whilst a Seaham - Sunderland via Ryhope Road works during the day - a variation of that route in peaks or on a night would offer so much more.
60X: A morning and evening peak version of the 60 via the A19 and Doxford International in to Sunderland. 
60N: Night time version via Nissan and Follingsby to Newcastle would offer so much more than what we see now and would could play a part in making a 24hr network successful.

Couple that with say a 27X and 27N between Shields and Newcastle via Monkton Business Park and/or Boldon Business Park, Nissan and/or Amazon and you've instantly opened up a network that has the potential to work during the day, peaks and night.

Honestly I think you have 3 amazing ideas here.

(29 Jun 2022, 7:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote Where would the demand for those routes come from? Apart from the nighttime economy in Newcastle, they wouldn't pass by any major employers who have a 24hr operation - like Nissan or Amazon.
It's telling that those sites are all near main roads (to aid distribution of goods) and it's also telling that public transport operators don't use the same road networks to help aid the workforce.

If there's a nighttime network that's going to work, operators need to think outside the box and maybe even offer something which is different to the daytime network.

Whilst a Seaham - Sunderland via Ryhope Road works during the day - a variation of that route in peaks or on a night would offer so much more.
60X: A morning and evening peak version of the 60 via the A19 and Doxford International in to Sunderland. 
60N: Night time version via Nissan and Follingsby to Newcastle would offer so much more than what we see now and would could play a part in making a 24hr network successful.

Couple that with say a 27X and 27N between Shields and Newcastle via Monkton Business Park and/or Boldon Business Park, Nissan and/or Amazon and you've instantly opened up a network that has the potential to work during the day, peaks and night.

Maybe it’s time GNE (and other operators) were a bit bold with ideas and recognise that while a bus that work during the day, May not be the bus that works during evenings and weekends (and maybe more importantly overnight) so how about trying something a bit different?

A 65 that maybe didn’t go around all the estates in Murton or a Seaham to Sunderland bus sort of along the line of the X6 along the coast, enabling quicker journey times for leisure travellers or commuters on night shifts. That sort of market perhaps don’t need services that literally stop outside their front door, so a short walk wouldn’t be out the way but for many at the moments there not direct services and it’s connections and lengthy waits at bus stations.

Don’t forget GNE and other bus companies are a business, and all businesses are there to make profit, only way night services will run is when the local authorities pay for those services, GNE took on those night services hoping to attract the right passengers, but only a handful of passengers are not going to pay for use and maintenance of the bus being used, plus drivers wages.


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Its worth pointing out that Stagecoach couldn't even make night buses pay on a Friday and Saturday to the most popular parts of Newcastle that they serve. They certainly couldn't be accused of not offering a comprehensive daytime network in the city either to get people in to town.

(29 Jun 2022, 8:58 pm)cbma06 wrote Don’t forget GNE and other bus companies are a business, and all businesses are there to make profit, only way night services will run is when the local authorities pay for those services, GNE took on those night services hoping to attract the right passengers, but only a handful of passengers are not going to pay for use and maintenance of the bus being used, plus drivers wages.


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Yes of course it’s got to make business sense - no one’s expecting a load of night buses going here, there and everywhere by next Tuesday. But perhaps looking at things a bit more realistically about who the target customers are and where they’re coming and going from. We’re told the 60 running to/from Parkside to Sunderland didn’t make enough money. Kudos to GNE for trying it, of course. But perhaps, as others have said, it wasn’t really an overly attractive proposition. There’s not that much in the way of employment sites, business parks or even nighttime leisure venues on the 60 route so I can certainly see why it hasn’t worked as well. Whereas the N21 serves Durham and Newcastle city centres bringing people to/from both locations, crucially at both end of the route so less scope for empty return trips. The same with 56 between Sunderland and Newcastle and also a main employment site with Nissan and on some trips connections at Concord to Follingsby Amazon iirc. So it’s easy to see where the 60 fell down. Having said that, I am surprised somewhat that some of the Saturday/Sunday early morning trips on the 60 haven’t managed to make some money - bringing people home after a night out in Sunderland.

(29 Jun 2022, 9:55 pm)Drifter60 wrote Yes of course it’s got to make business sense - no one’s expecting a load of night buses going here, there and everywhere by next Tuesday. But perhaps looking at things a bit more realistically about who the target customers are and where they’re coming and going from. We’re told the 60 running to/from Parkside to Sunderland didn’t make enough money. Kudos to GNE for trying it, of course. But perhaps, as others have said, it wasn’t really an overly attractive proposition. There’s not that much in the way of employment sites, business parks or even nighttime leisure venues on the 60 route so I can certainly see why it hasn’t worked as well. Whereas the N21 serves Durham and Newcastle city centres bringing people to/from both locations, crucially at both end of the route so less scope for empty return trips. The same with 56 between Sunderland and Newcastle and also a main employment site with Nissan and on some trips connections at Concord to Follingsby Amazon iirc. So it’s easy to see where the 60 fell down. Having said that, I am surprised somewhat that some of the Saturday/Sunday early morning trips on the 60 haven’t managed to make some money - bringing people home after a night out in Sunderland.

I am surprised that they haven't kept the Friday and Saturday 60s. Unless it's a quiet night in Sunderland they do take quite a lot of people in my experience.

(30 Jun 2022, 6:13 am)deanmachine wrote I am surprised that they haven't kept the Friday and Saturday 60s. Unless it's a quiet night in Sunderland they do take quite a lot of people in my experience.

Many of the routes being cancelled are actually quite busy at times - the 28 at Beamish opening and closing times being one - but clearly don’t make enough money for GNE’s shareholders.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The reason the night 'network' failed is because there just weren't enough services, it's alright if happen to live and work/play on one of the select routes, but if you don't, then its pointless.
They need to have at least one night service to each major town, even if it's a 2-3 hourly service

(29 Jun 2022, 9:55 pm)Drifter60 wrote Yes of course it’s got to make business sense - no one’s expecting a load of night buses going here, there and everywhere by next Tuesday. But perhaps looking at things a bit more realistically about who the target customers are and where they’re coming and going from. We’re told the 60 running to/from Parkside to Sunderland didn’t make enough money. Kudos to GNE for trying it, of course. But perhaps, as others have said, it wasn’t really an overly attractive proposition. There’s not that much in the way of employment sites, business parks or even nighttime leisure venues on the 60 route so I can certainly see why it hasn’t worked as well. Whereas the N21 serves Durham and Newcastle city centres bringing people to/from both locations, crucially at both end of the route so less scope for empty return trips. The same with 56 between Sunderland and Newcastle and also a main employment site with Nissan and on some trips connections at Concord to Follingsby Amazon iirc. So it’s easy to see where the 60 fell down. Having said that, I am surprised somewhat that some of the Saturday/Sunday early morning trips on the 60 haven’t managed to make some money - bringing people home after a night out in Sunderland.

It's like fitting a square peg in a round hole and they act all surprised when it doesn't fit and they give up trying.

Whilst my suggestions may not be the solution, they clearly show that there's something that can be done beyond the norm - that not only maintains connections, but opens up new connections that suit the various different markets that exist over the course of a day and night.

I like the idea of night buses (and any public transport for that matter - a private car and a taxi is available 24/7 so why shouldn't public transport?) however I feel you would need a more substantial network than now to make it more user friendly.

On a side note, would a 24 hour metro service work/be more successful than a handful of buses?

(30 Jun 2022, 9:17 am)morritt89 wrote I like the idea of night buses (and any public transport for that matter - a private car and a taxi is available 24/7 so why shouldn't public transport?) however I feel you would need a more substantial network than now to make it more user friendly.

On a side note, would a 24 hour metro service work/be more successful than a handful of buses?

The problem with a 24 hour Metro is there's maintenance which happens overnight which would suddenly become very difficult such as leaf clearing in the winter or doing rail grinding etc. There's quite a bit which is done. It's why there's very limited rail anywhere overnight and most tracks have blockades for times, some which involve the wires being turned off.

(30 Jun 2022, 9:17 am)morritt89 wrote I like the idea of night buses (and any public transport for that matter - a private car and a taxi is available 24/7 so why shouldn't public transport?) however I feel you would need a more substantial network than now to make it more user friendly.

On a side note, would a 24 hour metro service work/be more successful than a handful of buses? 

I'd love it to happen. But for the reasons mentioned above and the lack of buses that will take people those last few miles, I can't see it happening.

(30 Jun 2022, 9:26 am)Storx wrote The problem with a 24 hour Metro is there's maintenance which happens overnight which would suddenly become very difficult such as leaf clearing in the winter or doing rail grinding etc. There's quite a bit which is done. It's why there's very limited rail anywhere overnight and most tracks have blockades for times, some which involve the wires being turned off.

Nexus could, of course, secure Metro replacement bus services to provide a night service over the Metro routes if they thought they would attract passengers.

(30 Jun 2022, 10:43 am)busmanT wrote Nexus could, of course, secure Metro replacement bus services to provide a night service over the Metro routes if they thought they would attract passengers.

Yeah definitely, if and big if there was night services North of the Tyne they should be the following routes imo but it all depends if they actually want to work together.

N1 - SNE 30 Denton Burn to Newcastle, SNE 22 Newcastle to Cobalt (Hourly)
N2 - SNE 40 Chapel House to Newcastle, SNE 22 Newcastle to Howdon, GNE 1 Howdon to Whitley Bay (Hourly)
N3 - SNE 1, Newcastle to Chillingham Road, 63 to Killingworth (Hourly)
N4 - SNE 62 West Denton to Quorum (Hourly)
N5 - GNE Q3 to Gosforth, Arriva 43 to Cramlington (Hourly)
N6 - GNE Q3 to Gosforth, SNE 30 to Coxlodge, SNE 6 to Kingston Park (Hourly)

N1/N2 - Every 30 Minutes, West Road -> Howden
N3/N4 - Every 30 Minutes to Heaton Area
N5/N6 - Every 30 Minutes, Newcastle - Jesmond - Gosforth

Those 3 being arguably the places with the most demand.

Not sure on PVR's etc but it covers everything of note pretty much bar the Metro Line between Palmersville - Monkseaton (which would be hard to cover) and Kingston Park - Airport (which is dead most the time).

(30 Jun 2022, 10:43 am)busmanT wrote Nexus could, of course, secure Metro replacement bus services to provide a night service over the Metro routes if they thought they would attract passengers.

Exactly this. If there was enough demand or "social need" then NEXUS would cover the Metro routes using "N" buses, like London with night buses shadowing tube lines. That was, until the late 2000s the extent of night buses in London anyway!

(30 Jun 2022, 10:43 am)busmanT wrote Nexus could, of course, secure Metro replacement bus services to provide a night service over the Metro routes if they thought they would attract passengers.

The only problem is the cost of funding the service using the existing ticketing, there's no way Nexus could afford it. I think it would work great however, have a bus run the North Tyneside loop, with an N27 complementing the existing 56 (no need to run a service on the Sunderland line, just allow metro tickets to be used on the existing 56). That could be a basis for an extended night bus network if it was successful.

(30 Jun 2022, 3:37 pm)deanmachine wrote The only problem is the cost of funding the service using the existing ticketing, there's no way Nexus could afford it. I think it would work great however, have a bus run the North Tyneside loop, with an N27 complementing the existing 56 (no need to run a service on the Sunderland line, just allow metro tickets to be used on the existing 56). That could be a basis for an extended night bus network if it was successful.

The 1 would be a good one since it does cover Monument to Whitley Bay but after that gne don't cover any of the stations (bar the 19 to Northumberland Park)

(30 Jun 2022, 3:40 pm)Aaron21 wrote The 1 would be a good one since it does cover Monument to Whitley Bay but after that gne don't cover any of the stations (bar the 19 to Northumberland Park)

Just call the North Tyneside loop bus the 900, as there's nothing that duplicates the whole route. I only mentioned the 27 as it goes near enough the whole South Shields line, and the 56 as it's already established.

I presume places i.e. Team Valley, Scotswood Road, Norham Road, etc... wouldnt justify a night service even though theres factories.