(21 Aug 2022, 9:20 am)Storx wrote Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

(21 Aug 2022, 7:15 am)DeltaMan wrote I wonder if NCC need the bus to do a school from September before and after the 681, and that is why they changed it?

That would explain the squeezed timetable

Looking at the timetable it does scream that it's timetabled to fit round a scholars duty.

The later journeys on Saturday afternoons do remain however departing Alston at 15:15 and Birdoswald at 16:30 heading to Alston via Haltwhistle (must say I did the last 681 on a Saturday from Haltwhistle to Alston just before the changes and it only carried me and another enthusiast trying out the demo Iveco Ilesbus, was surprised to pick up another passenger along the route on the now withdrawn X81 to Hexham)

(21 Aug 2022, 1:19 pm)Jimmi wrote Looking at the timetable it does scream that it's timetabled to fit round a scholars duty.

The later journeys on Saturday afternoons do remain however departing Alston at 15:15 and Birdoswald at 16:30 heading to Alston via Haltwhistle (must say I did the last 681 on a Saturday from Haltwhistle to Alston just before the changes and it only carried me and another enthusiast trying out the demo Iveco Ilesbus, was surprised to pick up another passenger along the route on the now withdrawn X81 to Hexham)

Ah, well spotted with the Saturday. That will be it then. It must be a schools run which prevents the bus being in Alston earlier on weekdays

(21 Aug 2022, 9:20 am)Storx wrote Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

and that is exactly the problem - half the time it is completely empty, might take an odd one or two from Alston to halty and back, a couple from Halton Lea Gate, and someone from Slaggy, but that's about it.  It could be a completely soul destroying duty ten and a half hours of solitude - worse in the winter when the weather came in - running about in bad conditions for no benefit for anyone - that triip back across Alston Moor and Whitfield could be long and hairy.

From what I understand it's a Beechings route - so there's always going to be some sort of service on there with a minimum number of journeys.  Prior to the most recent changes most people agreed the direction of travel at the time was the wrong way around - so it should have been going to Alston when it was coming from there - and vice-versa.

In latter years the last 185 was always empty both ways, and more often than not asides from tourist season you could often carry less than half a dozen people a day on all of the 185 trips.

681 was sometimes a little busier depending on whether an odd group of teenagers wanted to go to Halty to generally make a nuisance of themselves around the train station, but again more often than not it was an odd person here and there that were regulars - and by regular that was more often than not, once a week.

Another thing I’ve heard is that the 0900 from Alston was never supposed to accept Cumbria concessionary passes as they’re only active after 09:30.
So elderly passengers never really wanted to pay.
And from speaking to drivers that I know. During the months of winter you’d be lucky to have more than five passengers across the entire 10hrs30 shift.
And of them, they may not even take any cash or card fares.

(21 Aug 2022, 11:56 am)Adrian wrote Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

I've often wondered how many of those thousand in Alston actually know about the service (given the limited nature of its runs) or connections it actually throws up.

I tried to plan a Round Robin type trip once, with a couple of stops along the way and found doing anything other than a there and back trip pretty difficult, I'd hazard a guess that the locals who are aware of its existence think that however vital it is, those connections are pretty poor too.

Bank Holidays, South Tynedale Railway, Allenheads, Allendale Town, local footpaths/walks/cycle routes, tourist attractions, Alston, and tourism all play a part in keeping visitors coming to that area - yet are seemingly ignored.
Locals and their needs are seemingly ignored. 

Last time I was over that way on a Bank Holiday weekend, I was genuinely amazed at the lack of joined up thinking or partnership work when it come to sustainable public transport.
In a nutshell, there was none and each of those places listed above saw visitors arriving by any other means than bus.

And now this.

---

(21 Aug 2022, 11:56 am)Adrian wrote Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

(21 Aug 2022, 11:56 am)Adrian wrote Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

(21 Aug 2022, 9:13 pm)xpm wrote and that is exactly the problem - half the time it is completely empty, might take an odd one or two from Alston to halty and back, a couple from Halton Lea Gate, and someone from Slaggy, but that's about it.  It could be a completely soul destroying duty ten and a half hours of solitude - worse in the winter when the weather came in - running about in bad conditions for no benefit for anyone - that triip back across Alston Moor and Whitfield could be long and hairy.

From what I understand it's a Beechings route - so there's always going to be some sort of service on there with a minimum number of journeys.  Prior to the most recent changes most people agreed the direction of travel at the time was the wrong way around - so it should have been going to Alston when it was coming from there - and vice-versa.

In latter years the last 185 was always empty both ways, and more often than not asides from tourist season you could often carry less than half a dozen people a day on all of the 185 trips.

681 was sometimes a little busier depending on whether an odd group of teenagers wanted to go to Halty to generally make a nuisance of themselves around the train station, but again more often than not it was an odd person here and there that were regulars - and by regular that was more often than not, once a week.

Going to reply together as it's easier otherwise I'll just be parroting myself. See I'm not surprised at all that it's like that, the timing's make it absolutely impossible for anyone who works to use the services so all your going to be left with is a few pensioners who will pop out once in a blue moon.

Personally I don't think conventional bus services work in rural areas as it takes people where they don't want to be and you can't really adjust it since there's no demand in the first place. imo they should start community transport groups where they engage with the pensioners and setup a selection of routes similar to Spirit Group used to be in Rothbury, bar they got no funding at all because Hexham get's most the funding in Northumberland and got forced to close down especially since they changed the X14 timetable so it was impossible to connect the services anymore.

So in the end you end up with services like

Monday - Alston to Haltwhistle
Tuesday - Alston to Hexham
Wednesday - No Service
Thursday - Alston to Haltwhistle
Friday - Alston to Carlisle via Brampton
Saturday - Alston to Hexham
Sunday - No Service

I'd also do the same with the 689 for similar reasons.

I do believe the 680 / 688 should remain though.

The 684 / 687 should be merged again, don't know why they were split so there's more connections and destinations from Newborough.

and the 683/686 withdrawn altogether replaced with a deal with a local taxi firm offering low fares within the zones of those routes, say £3 Max fare for a taxi within Hexham or the 686 route and NCC subsidise it.

Would offer the local residents a much much better service and reduce the amount wasted on buses going where people don't want / need them.

Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

(22 Aug 2022, 12:06 pm)Ambassador wrote Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

Not sure it would work there as it's so sparse so you'd just end up having minibuses effectively running a taxi service and there's not really any way of grouping passengers together sensibly since there's only one road with about 100 houses for 15 miles and going a different way would add 10+ miles to the route ie Alston to Hexham via Haltwhistle would be a horribly long journey especially if it's got 2 passengers the whole route.

It was my first though.

(22 Aug 2022, 12:06 pm)Ambassador wrote Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

I'm not convinced it would be. What kind of resource do you think would be needed to cover an area the size of South (and West, given the similar challenges) Northumberland, vs. the cost of providing 4x Solos or whatever it is? 

Tees Flex has I think 11 vehicles, and they're paying Stagecoach just over £1 million a year to operate it.

(21 Aug 2022, 9:13 pm)xpm wrote and that is exactly the problem - half the time it is completely empty, might take an odd one or two from Alston to halty and back, a couple from Halton Lea Gate, and someone from Slaggy, but that's about it.  It could be a completely soul destroying duty ten and a half hours of solitude - worse in the winter when the weather came in - running about in bad conditions for no benefit for anyone - that triip back across Alston Moor and Whitfield could be long and hairy.

From what I understand it's a Beechings route - so there's always going to be some sort of service on there with a minimum number of journeys.  Prior to the most recent changes most people agreed the direction of travel at the time was the wrong way around - so it should have been going to Alston when it was coming from there - and vice-versa.

In latter years the last 185 was always empty both ways, and more often than not asides from tourist season you could often carry less than half a dozen people a day on all of the 185 trips.

681 was sometimes a little busier depending on whether an odd group of teenagers wanted to go to Halty to generally make a nuisance of themselves around the train station, but again more often than not it was an odd person here and there that were regulars - and by regular that was more often than not, once a week.

I think next year when the contracts are now scheduled for renewal/review, there should be some reviews into the passenger numbers as in some places and some routes there's probs ways to make them cheaper to run, unless some are tagged onto scholars and the like where a higher capacity is required, half of these tenders around Hexham could be done with say a Ford Transit like Rural Link/L&B Travel are already using on their tendered runs in the area.

I think the current model of DRT is likely not ideally suited to the rural scope especially as vast span as Northumberland where usage is likely to be low and will just end up being a glorified taxi service, I think a better method would be to retain timetables on the 681 but make it run on a demand basis where you have to call to travel on the journey so if there's no passengers at all which often sounds to be the case, the resources are saved by not having to run it (Durham County Council previously took this approach on their 88 service between Bishop Auckland to Hamsterley which was very lightly used other than the school time journey which is all that remains now, the likes of The Little White Bus use this method too although passes aren't accepted for some of these journeys).

Wright Bros run service 889 between Alston & Hexham on Tuesdays only: https://wrightscoaches.co.uk/routes/

The 680 used to run from Alston to Carlisle via many villages along the way operated by Telford's but closest it gets now is Brampton.

The issue with Alston is Cumbria County Council.

They do not subsidise ANY conventional bus services. Unless somebody sets up a "Community Transport" style operation then they don't care.

It clearly comes down to money, but there was hardly mention of Alston at all in the counties BSIP submission either.

The other issue is even if there is a pot of money for buses, where do they do go? You could make a case for Carlisle, Penrith, Hexham and Haltwhistle. I'd say Carlisle would offer more bang for thier buck and seek to extend the short 685s from Brampton to Alston.

(22 Aug 2022, 10:55 am)Storx wrote imo they should start community transport groups where they engage with the pensioners and setup a selection of routes similar to Spirit Group used to be in Rothbury, bar they got no funding at all because Hexham get's most the funding in Northumberland and got forced to close down especially since they changed the X14 timetable so it was impossible to connect the services anymore.

In an ideal world, Northumberland County Council along with other councils in the country, would have a fleet of vehicles which are responsive to the community's needs. No need for private companies to profit off unprofitable routes, or for local residents to put their hands even deeper into their pockets for a charity or small operator to run routes that they already pay Northumberland County Council through Council Tax to provide.

The money to provide these services is there. And it's there in abundance. The council isn't sat there looking into their wallets for the last few pennies. It's up to the council and central government to find ways to provide more of the services that they are paid to provide, and to reduce costs through cutting out waste (ie profit).


Spirit Buses was too ambitious in the start, although it focussed on the core Rothbury-Alnwick service, and the loop of Coquetdale with about 40-50% of passengers making local journeys. The Elsdon journeys (population of ~250) were never going to work. The Wallington journeys were a daytrip via bumfuck nowhere (the amount of people who live on the route could be counted on your fingers). And there was 2 buses on a Sunday to Morpeth and back which always looked empty.

(22 Aug 2022, 2:10 pm)omnicity4659 wrote In an ideal world, Northumberland County Council along with other councils in the country, would have a fleet of vehicles which are responsive to the community's needs. No need for private companies to profit off unprofitable routes, or for local residents to put their hands even deeper into their pockets for a charity or small operator to run routes that they already pay Northumberland County Council through Council Tax to provide.

The money to provide these services is there. And it's there in abundance. The council isn't sat there looking into their wallets for the last few pennies. It's up to the council and central government to find ways to provide more of the services that they are paid to provide, and to reduce costs through cutting out waste (ie profit).


Spirit Buses was too ambitious in the start, although it focussed on the core Rothbury-Alnwick service, and the loop of Coquetdale with about 40-50% of passengers making local journeys. The Elsdon journeys (population of ~250) were never going to work. The Wallington journeys were a daytrip via bumfuck nowhere (the amount of people who live on the route could be counted on your fingers). And there was 2 buses on a Sunday to Morpeth and back which always looked empty.

Honestly, can't disagree at all but aren't councils banned from setting up bus companies as part of Bus Act (forgot it's full name) so it would be rather difficult to do. Even known personally I think it's ridiculous, I think the same with the Nexus services especially the likes of the W1 etc which will never be profitable and just go around and around operators and finding a timetable is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

It's a shame Nexus / NCC and DCC can't come up with a joint one to operate the subsidised services with cross boundary services services like the W1/58 and 101/688 which could easily make a case of being joined but don't because of cross border issues to just pick 2.

As has been said - Cumbria County Council stopped subsidising any bus services - probably about 5 years ago now IIRC or maybe a little longer, which is one of the reasons why the AD122 stopped going further west to Brampton etc.

A community transport organisation (Border Rambler) used to run a couple if times a week service Gilsland/Greehead/Walltown to Brampton IIRC - but I never saw it in a post covid world - although I'm not up there as often as I used to be.

The timetable and route has been tweaked several times over the years for one reason or another - sometime to match up better with the afternoon connecting train service, and right at the start of the contract to include Yont the Cleugh Caravan park. It is alledged that someone on the park had been repeatedly requesting a service there 'strongly' for quite some time. What happened - shortly after the service started to serve the park the person moved out, and asides a handful (and I do mean a handful) of visitors over the years - it just doesn't get used. The point with a caravan park is that most have a car in the first place, so you're on a hiding to nowhere there. Some other passengers started watching the service and demanding it turn up at all times regardless of the weather, add in the fact that in winter it's not on the gritting route and is very dangerous and icy most of the winter - it gets omitted anyway (one bus got written off there and I'm sure there was at least one other near miss).

It's a hard route physically on the vehicle and staff costs too, for little revenue (although the subsidy is, or was fairly handsome), which probably explains why a smaller operator isn't really interested (and also most smaller operators are already occupied with school contracts).

(22 Aug 2022, 2:05 pm)DeltaMan wrote The issue with Alston is Cumbria County Council.

They do not subsidise ANY conventional bus services. Unless somebody sets up a "Community Transport" style operation then they don't care.

It clearly comes down to money, but there was hardly mention of Alston at all in the counties BSIP submission either.

The other issue is even if there is a pot of money for buses, where do they do go? You could make a case for Carlisle, Penrith, Hexham and Haltwhistle. I'd say Carlisle would offer more bang for thier buck and  seek to extend the short 685s from Brampton to Alston.

Local authorities don't have the luxury of applying a blanket refusal to secure any bus services, as they have some legal obligations around this. There's a pretty good write up of it here: https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites/def...duties.pdf

(22 Aug 2022, 12:44 pm)Adrian wrote I'm not convinced it would be. What kind of resource do you think would be needed to cover an area the size of South (and West, given the similar challenges) Northumberland, vs. the cost of providing 4x Solos or whatever it is? 

Tees Flex has I think 11 vehicles, and they're paying Stagecoach just over £1 million a year to operate it.

My calculations were based on the current policy for DRT which appears to be just throw money at a rural area and hope it sticks.

(22 Aug 2022, 3:13 pm)xpm wrote A community transport organisation (Border Rambler) used to run a couple if times a week service Gilsland/Greehead/Walltown to Brampton IIRC - but I never saw it in a post covid world - although I'm not up there as often as I used to be.

This still operates on Wednesdays & Thursdays in the summer: https://www.borderramblerbus.co.uk/bus-routes/br3.html

Note that the advertised connections with the AD122 at Walton Roman Army Museum in this timetable no longer match up.

I definitely think X45 needs a higher frequency than every 30 mins they've all been rammed today. They are always late and delayed.

Will GNE tickets still be accepted on 82/30/31/725 after September 2nd?

The 28/29 have had some excellent loading when I've seen them, especially the 29, however I did see them both heading into Newcastle with 2/3 people on them I was walking around Newcastle when I saw them so i don't know how many got off at Gateshead

(10 Dec 2022, 12:19 pm)Unber43 wrote The 28/29 have had some excellent loading when I've seen them, especially the 29, however I did see them both heading into Newcastle with 2/3 people on them I was walking around Newcastle when I saw them so i don't know how many got off at Gateshead

I got the 29 a few weeks ago, it had 3 people from Newcastle but it was quite busy from Gateshead.