(18 Nov 2015, 5:59 pm)Adrian wrote Yet the two other large operators in the region can provide a large commercial operation? Doesn't sound right to me...

I appreciate that every single service is not viable for Boxing Day, but even an hourly frequency on some of the top money routes, would be a whole lot better than nothing.

Most of Arriva's services have long rural runs, though. More expensive to run for a smaller return. Their services into Sunderland were mentioned upthread but, iirc, they come from 2 different depots. I've also never been on a Peterlee-Sunderland run that's packed, even on a Saturday, when there's a match on.

(18 Nov 2015, 4:58 pm)RRA219X wrote I seem to recall being told that in order to make it financially viable for us to run a Boxing Day service, taking into account the operating costs and significant wage supplements for working that day, every driver would have to cash in approx £500. Not going to happen...

£500 per driver isn't completely unachievable if you think about it:

Take one decker to Newcastle, for example, if 70 people board, all buying Three Zone Day Tickets, that would be £490. 

Obviously that is a bit unrealistic in one run, but drivers won't just be doing the one run to Newcastle.

To be honest, it's about time they weren't so profit driven. It's one day, give something back to the customers for christs sake!

(18 Nov 2015, 8:58 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Most of Arriva's services have long rural runs, though. More expensive to run for a smaller return. Their services into Sunderland were mentioned upthread but, iirc, they come from 2 different depots. I've also never been on a Peterlee-Sunderland run that's packed, even on a Saturday, when there's a match on.

Not familiar with those particular services, but the 7 for example is always really busy. Then there's the X12, and I'm surprised the uni haven't had a word about having that running. 

North of the Tyne, and I'm surprised they're not providing services from the likes of Tynemouth, Blyth, Morpeth, Ashington, etc, for the Newcastle match? Not to mention the huge shopping day that it is for intu Eldon Square & Metrocentre?

(18 Nov 2015, 9:27 pm)MrPottski wrote To be honest, it's about time they weren't so profit driven. It's one day, give something back to the customers for christs sake!

That's the other argument of it. I wouldn't expect a service to be ran at a loss, but as long as it breaks even, I can't see the issue of offsetting it with the profit made over the course of the year. As you put it; it's one day.

(18 Nov 2015, 9:29 pm)Adrian wrote Not familiar with those particular services, but the 7 for example is always really busy. Then there's the X12, and I'm surprised the uni haven't had a word about having that running. 

North of the Tyne, and I'm surprised they're not providing services from the likes of Tynemouth, Blyth, Morpeth, Ashington, etc, for the Newcastle match? Not to mention the huge shopping day that it is for intu Eldon Square & Metrocentre?

On boxing day?

IIRC, Durham and the Arnison centre were pretty much shut on Boxing day, last year. Tesceurgh and Dragonville open, but few people travel there by bus, anyhow. No idea about Darlo or Teesside. I think we've been to Boro on Boxing day, before - or it might have been the day after. (It was the day we nearly got snarled up in a pile up because there was hail and snow and the various authorities were scrimping on gritting the A19 at the county boundaries and someone lost control turning out at Elwick.)

Agree that the North of Tyne services would probably be more commercially viable.

(18 Nov 2015, 5:59 pm)Adrian wrote Yet the two other large operators in the region can provide a large commercial operation? Doesn't sound right to me...

I appreciate that every single service is not viable for Boxing Day, but even an hourly frequency on some of the top money routes, would be a whole lot better than nothing.

Sounds like Arriva is run by the Union rather than the management.

---

(18 Nov 2015, 9:27 pm)MrPottski wrote To be honest, it's about time they weren't so profit driven. It's one day, give something back to the customers for christs sake!

Totally agree.

(18 Nov 2015, 9:30 pm)Adrian wrote That's the other argument of it. I wouldn't expect a service to be ran at a loss, but as long as it breaks even, I can't see the issue of offsetting it with the profit made over the course of the year. As you put it; it's one day.

Well said.

PB0002032/515 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP

Registration Accepted by SN
Starting Point: Ashington
Finish Point: Woodhorn Museum
Via:
Service Number: W0W
Service Type: Limited Stop
Effective Date: 05-DEC-2015
Other Details: Special service for an event at Woodhorn Museum

Agree about the statement regarding being run by the Unions. Here is an example and this is NOT ALL DRIVERS by the way, but a very small minority:

Driver goes deliberately slow and makes no safe or legal effort to keep the service running to time.

Arriva: Lead driver or reserve sent out, driver rarely faces action, management dare to implenent intervention measures in the event of the unions jumping in and do nothing more than send out a message asking drivers to run to time.

GNE: Driver monitored closely, very active control room, driver sent for redemial training if needed, clear zero tolerance message sent out warning drivers of the consequences of deliberately 'toading'.

(20 Nov 2015, 8:48 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote Agree about the statement regarding being run by the Unions. Here is an example and this is NOT ALL DRIVERS by the way, but a very small minority:

Driver goes deliberately slow and makes no safe or legal effort to keep the service running to time.

Arriva: Lead driver or reserve sent out, driver rarely faces action, management dare to implenent intervention measures in the event of the unions jumping in and do nothing more than send out a message asking drivers to run to time.

GNE: Driver monitored closely, very active control room, driver sent for redemial training if needed, clear zero tolerance message sent out warning drivers of the consequences of deliberately 'toading'.

One of the members on here work for Darlington depot which is operated by Arriva and will probably agree with me here, there's quite a few drivers at Darlington that go slow, yeah they've maybe had a accident or 2 or a incident, but the people higher up in Darlington depot are complete k***s, it feels that if you sneeze the wrong way you'll end up getting suspended or sacked, there's one driver that got suspended the other day for not knowing a route, so basically if any Darlington service is running late it's because there probably doing the job by the book, no point in rushing around its just a excuse for you to end up sacked or suspended, there's 101 reasons for being late but none for being early

(18 Nov 2015, 5:59 pm)Adrian wrote Yet the two other large operators in the region can provide a large commercial operation? Doesn't sound right to me...

I appreciate that every single service is not viable for Boxing Day, but even an hourly frequency on some of the top money routes, would be a whole lot better than nothing.

And NUFC are helping towards the cost of the later services with the match being on later.....

http://www.nufc.co.uk/articles/20151120/...70_5153010

(20 Nov 2015, 11:59 pm)Stuartphin1639 wrote One of the members on here work for Darlington depot which is operated by Arriva and will probably agree with me here, there's quite a few drivers at Darlington that go slow, yeah they've maybe had a accident or 2 or a incident, but the people higher up in Darlington depot are complete k***s, it feels that if you sneeze the wrong way you'll end up getting suspended or sacked, there's one driver that got suspended the other day for not knowing a route, so basically if any Darlington service is running late it's because there probably doing the job by the book, no point in rushing around its just a excuse for you to end up sacked or suspended, there's 101 reasons for being late but none for being early

That's a bit ridiculous that, sacked for sneezing the wrong way. And knowing a route, aren't all drivers given adequate familiarisation? I understand the role of the Unions to be there and protect the drivers in the event of such things, but deliberately running late (doing 40 on a clear NSL single carriageway and doing 25-30 in a 40 as I've seen before) is unfair on:

- The lead drivers who have to cover the next outbound.

- Passengers who are delayed who could've got there on time but ended up running avoidably late.

I remember one driver going so slow (I won't name the route but you'll probably know by the description), that 2x competing GNE services overtook him and the sister Arriva service also did.

(21 Nov 2015, 8:15 am)citaro5284 wrote And NUFC are helping towards the cost of the later services with the match being on later.....

http://www.nufc.co.uk/articles/20151120/...70_5153010

Newcastle doing that, really surprises me.
Glad to see they took some sort of initiative in doing so.

However, I struggle to see how they need to do it.
How can an operator not make a profit on their routes, with a decent proportion of the 52k using each of the services?
Ditto the Metro, where there will be a number of passengers on a Magpie Mover through the season ticket scheme or one of the Nexus/Network Ticketing offers. 

(21 Nov 2015, 12:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote Newcastle doing that, really surprises me.
Glad to see they took some sort of initiative in doing so.

However, I struggle to see how they need to do it.
How can an operator not make a profit on their routes, with a decent proportion of the 52k using each of the services?
Ditto the Metro, where there will be a number of passengers on a Magpie Mover through the season ticket scheme or one of the Nexus/Network Ticketing offers. 

But looking at their press release they are paying for extra services (bus and Metro) which would not normally be there on a Boxing Day night.  I cannot see why they should not pay for something they want.

(21 Nov 2015, 12:54 pm)citaro5284 wrote But looking at their press release they are paying for extra services (bus and Metro) which would not normally be there on a Boxing Day night.  I cannot see why they should not pay for something they want.

And who is to say that the operators - bus and Metro - haven't already provided extra journeys off their own backs, which they think will be profitable, without funding from NUFC?

(21 Nov 2015, 12:54 pm)citaro5284 wrote But looking at their press release they are paying for extra services (bus and Metro) which would not normally be there on a Boxing Day night.  I cannot see why they should not pay for something they want.

So without the funding, those additional services, wouldn't make a profit? Bearing in mind the proportion of the 52k who will be using public transport...

Even on the off chance they do, not a bad little earner - underwritten by Newcastle plus whatever profit is made by the routes.even

(20 Nov 2015, 8:48 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote Arriva: Lead driver or reserve sent out, driver rarely faces action, management dare to implenent intervention measures in the event of the unions jumping in and do nothing more than send out a message asking drivers to run to time.

An Ashington driver was suspended the other day for "deliberately running the service late" when he was running 35 minutes late on the X20.

The driver took over the bus 10 minutes late, the headlights were rubbish, all he could see was pitch black and the reflections from the window, an Eddie Stobart lorry was attempting to turn around causing another 15 minute delay. The depot manager then un-suspended him when they saw that he was telling the truth.

Driver rarely faces action, eh?!

(24 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm)GX03 SVC wrote An Ashington driver was suspended the other day for "deliberately running the service late" when he was running 35 minutes late on the X20.

The driver took over the bus 10 minutes late, the headlights were rubbish, all he could see was pitch black and the reflections from the window, an Eddie Stobart lorry was attempting to turn around causing another 15 minute delay. The depot manager then un-suspended him when they saw that he was telling the truth.

Driver rarely faces action, eh?!

That's different. The management were wrong on this instance. Deliberate late running isn't such a problem on longer and less frequent routes and late running is more down to the traffic conditions. It's more of a problem on the more frequent routes. 35 mins late on the X20 is very noticable. But running 15 minutes late on the X21/X22/X10/X11/308  and any others isn't very noticable. These can be easily be regulated owing to their frequency. And to be fair, Ashington depot isn't such a problem and I've only experienced one late runner from there for such reason. It's another certain depot beginning with a B where I've noticed a small minority of drivers not making an effort.

(24 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm)GX03 SVC wrote An Ashington driver was suspended the other day for "deliberately running the service late" when he was running 35 minutes late on the X20.

The driver took over the bus 10 minutes late, the headlights were rubbish, all he could see was pitch black and the reflections from the window, an Eddie Stobart lorry was attempting to turn around causing another 15 minute delay. The depot manager then un-suspended him when they saw that he was telling the truth.

Driver rarely faces action, eh?!

I could point out some drivers from that depot who are late (at least 5 minutes) pretty much every time I get on their bus. There are common themes, driving at 15-20 in a 30, taking forever to pull away from stops (as in not even attempting to pull away for quite a while after the passenger boards), being VERY hesitant, taking forever with the ticket machine etc.

So, it seems while they punish drivers who aren't intentionally running late, they let others get away with it.

(24 Nov 2015, 4:55 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote That's different. The management were wrong on this instance. Deliberate late running isn't such a problem on longer and less frequent routes and late running is more down to the traffic conditions. It's more of a problem on the more frequent routes. 35 mins late on the X20 is very noticable. But running 15 minutes late on the X21/X22/X10/X11/308  and any others isn't very noticable. These can be easily be regulated owing to their frequency. And to be fair, Ashington depot isn't such a problem and I've only experienced one late runner from there for such reason. It's another certain depot beginning with a B where I've noticed a small minority of drivers not making an effort.

I can't see how you think deliberate late running is not as big as problem on a frequent route rather than just limited frequency services, I'd sharp notice late running on the 7 which has a 15 minute frequency. I know it's obviously worse on the likes of the X20 but still.

(24 Nov 2015, 4:59 pm)mb134 wrote I could point out some drivers from that depot who are late (at least 5 minutes) pretty much every time I get on their bus. There are common themes, driving at 15-20 in a 30, taking forever to pull away from stops (as in not even attempting to pull away for quite a while after the passenger boards), being VERY hesitant, taking forever with the ticket machine etc.

So, it seems while they punish drivers who aren't intentionally running late, they let others get away with it.

Do drivers at other Arriva depots tend to wait for passengers to sit down before pulling away from a stop like most of Darlington depot's drivers tend to do? Although it was typical the one driver I've had recently that didn't do this was the one I had on the 5 to Darlington yesterday where I had to climb over someone's dog which was sat in the middle of the bloody aisle.

(24 Nov 2015, 5:26 pm)Jimmi wrote Do drivers at other Arriva depots tend to wait for passengers to sit down before pulling away from a stop like most of Darlington depot's drivers tend to do? Although it was typical the one driver I've had recently that didn't do this was the one I had on the 5 to Darlington yesterday where I had to climb over someone's dog which was sat in the middle of the bloody aisle.

Most Ashington drivers I get don't, however pull away in a smooth manner. With those that run late, and waste time at bus stops, the passenger has sat down, finished all seven Harry Potter books, and had a nap before the driver even thinks about moving...

(24 Nov 2015, 5:26 pm)Jimmi wrote I can't see how you think deliberate late running is not as big as problem on a frequent route rather than just limited frequency services, I'd sharp notice late running on the 7 which has a 15 minute frequency. I know it's obviously worse on the likes of the X20 but still.


Do drivers at other Arriva depots tend to wait for passengers to sit down before pulling away from a stop like most of Darlington depot's drivers tend to do? Although it was typical the one driver I've had recently that didn't do this was the one I had on the 5 to Darlington yesterday where I had to climb over someone's dog which was sat in the middle of the bloody aisle.

Company policy dictates that you should wait for all passengers to be seated or securely standing before moving away. Of course when you are running late you will often find drivers pulling away before this, putting themselves at (admittedly low) risk of action being taken should anything happen. That's why some drivers will stick to the rules, especially if they are on a disciplinary tight rope should we say.

Late running occurs every day on every service, however there is clearly a divide between certain depots that is obvious when you see statistics across various services. Anything above 5 minutes late is counted as late on our statistics and counts against a drivers punctuality stats. I myself have dropped about 10% in the last few months... Purely because of the amount of roadworks on our route, I just can't be bothered any more pushing to try and stay on time when there's 3 or 4 sets of temporary lights where you can lose 2-3 minutes each time.

(24 Nov 2015, 6:23 pm)tyresmoke wrote Company policy dictates that you should wait for all passengers to be seated or securely standing before moving away. Of course when you are running late you will often find drivers pulling away before this, putting themselves at (admittedly low) risk of action being taken should anything happen. That's why some drivers will stick to the rules, especially if they are on a disciplinary tight rope should we say.

Late running occurs every day on every service, however there is clearly a divide between certain depots that is obvious when you see statistics across various services. Anything above 5 minutes late is counted as late on our statistics and counts against a drivers punctuality stats. I myself have dropped about 10% in the last few months... Purely because of the amount of roadworks on our route, I just can't be bothered any more pushing to try and stay on time when there's 3 or 4 sets of temporary lights where you can lose 2-3 minutes each time.

That's absolutely fine. The problem isn't with drivers who run late by:
- Driving to road and traffic conditions within the speed limit and adjusting their speed appropriately (speeding up on faster sections of road where safe to do so or slowing down where needed for safety).
- Drivers waiting for punters to be seated.
- Drivers who get stuck in traffic or a defective vehicle.
- Extreme Weather.

The problem is with drivers who:
- Drive deliberately slow where conditions allow them to go faster (40 on an NSL dual carriage way, 20 in a 30 zone, 25-30 in a 40 zone) when already running late. Now the speed limits I have there aren't always targets (heavy traffic, counrty roads, ice, torrential rain and even standees to an extent etc) but where safe and if time is needed to be made up, then drivers should try and aim for the speed limit where possible to recover time. I'll give you an example:

Unacceptable late running:
- 17:40 X10 from M.Boro to Eldon Sq arrives at Gateshead 10 minutes late and the new driver comes on. Driver gets into Eldon Sq after the changeover at 19:15 and departs 10 minutes late at 19:25.

- The above driver then hits the A19 at roughly 19:50 on a calm and clear night with good road, traffic and weather conditions but despite the B9s being capable of 57mph (or even 62 if 6043-6048 are set to allow this), the driver only decides to do 45-50mph despite running 10 minutes late.

Acceptable late running:
- Lashing down with rain, slight winds and the driver decides to do 45-50mph to keep the vehicle under control and keep the passengers safe.

A driver putting him or herself, passengers or other road users in danger to make up time is bang out of order, but a driver failing to make up time where safe and legal to do so is unacceptable. Now what you're telling me is completely acceptable and you're making an effort to run to time despite the roadworks etc. It's the VERY small minority who do such things that cause problems, not the majority of honest hardworking lads and lasses like you and many other drivers on this forum who do their job and keep the punters happy and safe whilst trying to get them to their destinations on time in sometimes, pretty horrendous road and traffic conditions.

Not sticking to the timetable is not just achieved by running late, but also running early... Most days when I get a Darlington depot operated Sapphire 7 the drivers nearly always wait at timing points and the service keeps pretty much on-time, yet sometimes if I get a Belmont Sapphire 7 run this doesn't happen, can't tell you how many times I have witnessed Belmont's 7's not waiting at timing points with me even missing 7's on occasions due to early running, the timing points on their runs seem to be Darlington Town Centre, Newton Aycliffe Town Centre, Ferryhill Market Place and Durham Bus Station, no word of a lie there has been occasions where I've boarded a Belmont 7 in Newton Aycliffe heading in the direction of Durham and on some quiet morning journeys the bus has arrived in Ferryhill in the region of 10 MINUTES EARLY! owing to little passengers boarding/alighting but mainly down to not waiting time at Woodham Stag Lane and Chilton Wheatsheaf.

I missed an evening X12 a few months back which left Stockton several minutes early towars M'bro. An hourly service and the only bus I could use with my Arriva ticket.

PB0002032/11 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP
Variation Accepted: Operating between Blyth and Newcastle given service number X7 effective from 24-Jan-2016. To amend Route and Timetable.

PB0002032/252 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP
Variation Accepted: Operating between Blyth and Newcastle given service number X8 effective from 24-Jan-2016. To amend Route and Timetable.

Appeared on VOSA today:

PB0002717/16 - ARRIVA DURHAM COUNTY LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP

Variation Accepted: Operating between Durham and New Brancepeth given service number 48 effective from 31-Jan-2016. To amend Route and Timetable.

The trial period of service 1 extending to Cresswell on Sundays has been extended to May 2016.

(29 Nov 2015, 11:56 am)GX03 SVC wrote The trial period of service 1 extending to Cresswell on Sundays has been extended to May 2016.

Notices put on buses allocated to the route.