(28 Dec 2016, 6:52 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote While I have barely knowledge in Sunderland's history of bus routes, Overall as a company GNE have, In the past " cut " service's for profit, -
Same with other company's, So really, Whether or not in Sunderland, Greg is right.

Well you don't run a business to make a loss.

If you spend more on fuel tax wages maintenance than the service generates, you cannot sustain the service. If GNE continued to operate non profitable services, then they would no longer be in business.

Do we not think that the complaining is down to people failing to understand how businesses work? It is very easy to shoot down a business for doing something that goes against the customer without understanding why the business has made the decision that it has made.

All businesses exist to provide a product/service to the people in their target market. If this product/service does not appeal to the people that it is aimed at, it will not make a profit and will, therefore, be very difficult to justify its continuation. If they continued to provide the service at a loss, the business would simply struggle to survive, affecting a much larger group of people. After all, it is very rare for Go North East to remove a service and not to give customers an alternative method of getting to their destination, such as the recent extension of the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town replacing service X7 on that section of the route.

(28 Dec 2016, 7:41 pm)S813 FVK wrote Do we not think that the complaining is down to people failing to understand how businesses work? It is very easy to shoot down a business for doing something that goes against the customer without understanding why the business has made the decision that it has made.

All businesses exist to provide a product/service to the people in their target market. If this product/service does not appeal to the people that it is aimed at, it will not make a profit and will, therefore, be very difficult to justify its continuation. If they continued to provide the service at a loss, the business would simply struggle to survive, affecting a much larger group of people. After all, it is very rare for Go North East to remove a service and not to give customers an alternative method of getting to their destination, such as the recent extension of the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town replacing service X7 on that section of the route.

But it is irrelevant if the customer understands the business behind it or not. There seems to quite often be the misconception that the consumer cares about how a company achieves it's margins, how it justifies it mark up pricing or what not. It is not their concern, and quite frankly most of them will not care. It is up to a business to remain competitive but still provide a product or service to meet the customer's expectations at a price where they feel value. Otherwise, and quite simply, they'll go elsewhere. 

Unfortunately, the majority of bus operators' customers' do not have that choice, because competition is so scarce. They find that the only alternative is often to learn to drive/take the car.

(28 Dec 2016, 7:41 pm)S813 FVK wrote Do we not think that the complaining is down to people failing to understand how businesses work? It is very easy to shoot down a business for doing something that goes against the customer without understanding why the business has made the decision that it has made.

All businesses exist to provide a product/service to the people in their target market. If this product/service does not appeal to the people that it is aimed at, it will not make a profit and will, therefore, be very difficult to justify its continuation. If they continued to provide the service at a loss, the business would simply struggle to survive, affecting a much larger group of people. After all, it is very rare for Go North East to remove a service and not to give customers an alternative method of getting to their destination, such as the recent extension of the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town replacing service X7 on that section of the route.

Shame we lost the Boro link but least we still have the X9, from Peterlee bus station and the X10 from else where.

Like you said, if it's not working then it needs changing.

I know i moaned a bit about the 18/19 changing in Sunderland but that's because i use the service, but it's only the first of 18 of the day which i really need to stay the same.

Looking forward to seeing what 2017 brings for all the bus companys.

(28 Dec 2016, 7:48 pm)Adrian wrote But it is irrelevant if the customer understands the business behind it or not. There seems to quite often be the misconception that the consumer cares about how a company achieves it's margins, how it justifies it mark up pricing or what not. It is not their concern, and quite frankly most of them will not care. It is up to a business to remain competitive but still provide a product or service to meet the customer's expectations at a price where they feel value. Otherwise, and quite simply, they'll go elsewhere. 

Unfortunately, the majority of bus operators' customers' do not have that choice, because competition is so scarce. They find that the only alternative is often to learn to drive/take the car.

Exactly - there is competition on all routes - the car! Just because only one operator runs a service doesn't mean there is no competition. It's in the operators interest to run a quality service where people want to go, otherwise they'll use a car instead, and operators won't have a business anymore. there's no point having two operators run a service and neither of them carry enough passengers to cover costs

I'm also aware of the fact that GNE is not the only company frequently altering services - Arriva always seem to be doing it north of the Tyne, but my comment was in relation to Dan saying GNE have a strategy, which it doesn't seem to. Look at the number of times buses are repainted or buses rebranded without any thought of what was to happen to that brand like when OmniCitys, for example, were branded Toonlink only a month or two before the brand changed routes -  the X30/1 therefore had to be Toonlink as well as the unrelated 12/12A to justify the repainting. I don't take much interest in Stagecoach, only really knowing a bit about their Teesside operations and, as I've said before, thought Arriva are pretty rubbish, although they seem to have been improving  over the last few years, whilst GNE seem to have been declining. I don't know enough about Arriva, especially north of the Tyne, to know if their regular changes are in fact cuts. The latest Go Ahead report did say however that their North East operations are experiencing difficulties which have affected corporate financial results this year.

The X30/X31 becoming part of the Toon Link network was not the original plan, it was the 96 that was going to join the brand, interworking with the 11 which was already part of the brand. I would say that the 96 had no relation to the 11/12/12A either other than the fact it interworked with one of those services.

I have to agree with you on that Greg.

Another example is also the changes to the 17/17A etc... The 40/41 got new buses and then changed juat after, meaning 4 older Solo Sr's had to be repainted to join the brand.

Cobalt Clipper too, they changed them after they got new buses so the PVR went up meaning they lost a spare....

I bet it happens with the new buses arriving too.

(28 Dec 2016, 8:35 pm)Michael wrote I have to agree with you on that Greg.

Another example is also the changes to the 17/17A etc... The 40/41 got new buses and then changed juat after, meaning 4 older Solo Sr's had to be repainted to join the brand.

Cobalt Clipper too, they changed them after they got new buses so the PVR went up meaning they lost a spare....

I bet it happens with the new buses arriving too.

Even though the PVR increased by 1 on the Clippers, it actually (barring before 7am and after 10pm to and from Newcastle) offered a better service plus looking into the number of complaints flooding in at the time about the 308 (may have improved now) gave good justification to increase the frequency between Whitley Bay and Blyth but still leaving 1x spare.

When I moved from Norfolk to Weardale in 2009 Go North East was interesting and innovative and, let's face it, Arriva was pretty bad. GNE was led by dynamic manager(s), ran what seemed to me logical timetables in a good overall network. I thought it a positive move that various less frequent routes were grouped into single 10 minute headway services eg X1, 27, 56. But over the last few years the innovation and dynamism have gone and we have too-frequent piecemeal chopping and changing and some really badly designed timetables - but in spite of the cuts the finances  aren't improving according to the comments in the annual report. I have no knowledge of Arriva's financial performance, but they've definitely improved the public perception of themselves with Sapphire, Max and Frequenta, even though Max is often just tarting up pretty ancient buses. GNE must reverse the decline and in my humble opinion (as a bus company manager in a previous life) that can be done by looking at their network as a whole, rather than by frequent bitty individual route changes, and simplifying the fare structure - cheapish area tickets are OK for regular passengers changing buses, but you've got to attract occasional users as well who want a reasonably priced day return from A to B and an incentive not to take the car.

(28 Dec 2016, 8:08 pm)Crusader wrote Exactly - there is competition on all routes - the car! Just because only one operator runs a service doesn't mean there is no competition. It's in the operators interest to run a quality service where people want to go, otherwise they'll use a car instead, and operators won't have a business anymore. there's no point having two operators run a service and neither of them carry enough passengers to cover costs

You sort of miss the point with that analogy. The car is competition for one off users. Take a group of friends going from Low Fell to Birtley. Anymore than 2 and a taxi is cheaper, that really shouldn't be the case. Bus companies aren't ever going to beat or try to beat the car in provincial towns and cities.

The vast majority of bus users are not by choice. They don't or cannot drive and they are at the whim and mercy of monopolies, poor timetabling and inflation busting fares.

With all due respect, when the vast majority of forum members get older and begin to rely on public transport at full fares and perhaps live away from flagship routes they'll get out of the enthusiast bubble and realise all operators are no better than any big business, they just lack the customer service and foresight to grow.

(28 Dec 2016, 9:56 pm)Ambassador wrote You sort of miss the point with that analogy. The car is competition for one off users. Take a group of friends going from Low Fell to Birtley. Anymore than 2 and a taxi is cheaper, that really shouldn't be the case. Bus companies aren't ever going to beat or try to beat the car in provincial towns and cities.

The vast majority of bus users are not by choice. They don't or cannot drive and they are at the whim and mercy of monopolies, poor timetabling and inflation busting fares.

With all due respect, when the vast majority of forum members get older and begin to rely on public transport at full fares and perhaps live away from flagship routes they'll get out of the enthusiast bubble and realise all operators are no better than any big business, they just lack the customer service and foresight to grow.

Yes taxi is cheaper for 1 trip or a short distance yet pay £5 for day ticket and you can travel to town metrocentre Washington Blaydon. You can rack up to 10x the miles you can in a taxi for same amount.

Also in regard inflation busting fares. Nexus is the worst offender. If you live in Washington and work in newcastle, you have to pay almost double the price per month for a Network One compared to a buzzfare.
Nexus force it's Network One users to pay for metro and ferry even though they might not use it.
Least with month tickets/ route savers from GNE you only pay for the services in your area

It also doesn't help any of the bus companies that local authorities in this area are rubbish regarding bus priority schemes. Can there be another bus station in the country that it is as difficult to get into as Eldon Square? Look at the ludicrous chicane and uncontrolled pedestrian crossing on Newgate Street. No Car lanes rather than Bus Only lanes. And so on.

(28 Dec 2016, 10:54 pm)Greg in Weardale wrote It also doesn't help any of the bus companies that local authorities in this area are rubbish regarding bus priority schemes. Can there be another bus station in the country that it is as difficult to get into as Eldon Square? Look at the ludicrous chicane and uncontrolled pedestrian crossing on Newgate Street. No Car lanes rather than Bus Only lanes. And so on.

Agreed I think they should of had a one way system from haymarket to eldon square station and move that stupid car park. Would of allowed the traffic to flow a lot easier.

Newgate is terrible road, specially on evenings when everyone is drunk and can't see a bus tootling along.

A lot of the congestion though is taxis who park at bus stops and clog up every available bit of space on city centre bus routes

(28 Dec 2016, 9:56 pm)Ambassador wrote With all due respect, when the vast majority of forum members get older and begin to rely on public transport at full fares and perhaps live away from flagship routes they'll get out of the enthusiast bubble and realise all operators are no better than any big business

Ye, luckily i live/work in Sunderland so i buy the smartzone pass, which is £13.50 as i use both Stagecoach and Go North East to and from work, £13.50 is worth it.

When i was studying at Newcastle College, i had a Network one pass and that would cost me, £220 for a term pass, which was well worth it.

I'm glad i don't work else where in the NE as the price would shoot up.

Maybe people will use the new X24 when it starts, as it'll be cheaper than GNE and the Metro haha

Edit:

I agree on Eldon Square, it's one the worst bus stations built, the roads in Newcastle are a mess.

(28 Dec 2016, 7:32 pm)JP6004 wrote Well you don't run a business to make a loss.

If you spend more on fuel tax wages maintenance than the service generates, you cannot sustain the service. If GNE continued to operate non profitable services, then they would no longer be in business.

So when manufacturers and supermarkets run loss-leaders that's for what reasons? 

When a model is built around the hub and spoke, there will be elements of the model stronger than others. The way the land lies, housing and employment mean that is a guaranteed certainty.
What you can't do is remove the spokes or reduce when the spokes are in place, cos ultimately it's gonna impact on the stronger spokes and their profits. 

The 21 can only work to its potential when you have the likes of the 13, 14, 15, 28, 34 and 36 (all serving places that had regular services to Newcastle) working to their potential too. Without them (even if they don't make a profit), the 21 doesn't achieve anything like it does.

(29 Dec 2016, 12:49 am)Andreos1 wrote So when manufacturers and supermarkets run loss-leaders that's for what reasons? 

When a model is built around the hub and spoke, there will be elements of the model stronger than others. The way the land lies, housing and employment mean that is a guaranteed certainty.
What you can't do is remove the spokes or reduce when the spokes are in place, cos ultimately it's gonna impact on the stronger spokes and their profits. 

The 21 can only work to its potential when you have the likes of the 13, 14, 15, 28, 34 and 36 (all serving places that had regular services to Newcastle) working to their potential too. Without them (even if they don't make a profit), the 21 doesn't achieve anything like it does.

Thankfully bus operators now have smart ticket machines allowing them to analyse the network, find out passenger trends, and work out whether running those feeder services can be justified or not - even if they are making little to no money.

If, in your example, it would have such a detrimental effect on service 21, those feeder services wouldn't be withdrawn.

When you pair that with a customer survey requesting feedback on your proposed route changes, you get a pretty good idea on if it's worth doing something before you proceed.

To go back to the original post - if that's not strategy and planning, I don't know what is. I'm speaking very generally here as it applies to all three of the main operators in the North East: they all employ the same techniques (albeit with minor differences) when making revisions to their network.

Dan,

You should have learned by now never to respond to Andreos' posts... he's always right, and everyone else is always wrong!

Happy New Year to one and all!

(29 Dec 2016, 10:23 am)eezypeazy wrote Dan,

You should have learned by now never to respond to Andreos' posts... he's always right, and everyone else is always wrong!

Happy New Year to one and all!

Now now eezypeazy. Bit personal for what is meant to be a joyous, festive time of the year isn't it? Bit of a sweeping statement too... 

If you could clarify what I said that was wrong and put me right, that would be fantastic for us all.

If we were to put a different slant on it, we could look at the 10 from Hexham. Lots of the Solo services are obviously designed to feed in to the bigger network and we have seen lots of complaints from residents and councillors about how they struggle to get in to the town using public transport since tweaks were made to the network. Imagine if a councillor was to have the sort of attitude towards their constituents, who have voiced an opinion about the bus network, similar to the attitude shown by yourself on this forum?

Usual sweeping statements from Andreos without evidence...

Glad to see you're still following me, though!

(29 Dec 2016, 11:19 am)eezypeazy wrote Usual sweeping statements from Andreos without evidence...

Glad to see you're still following me, though!

I would copy and paste a link from the Hexham Courant, but the site isn't letting me paste it.
Just from earlier this year, there are quotes from a councillor in Hexham who isn't happy at the withdrawal of runs on the 682.
Despite requests to open communication with the operator, it appears his attempts were fruitless. 
Speaking personally, I'm not too keen on the response from the operator representative either mind...

I am guessing that is what you mean when you state that there is a usual sweeping statement without evidence. It was a pretty vague response you provided. Hopefully this clarifies things for you?

You're going to have to clarify the 'following' line. Slightly worrying that you are being followed mind...

Still no announcements on indigo north tyne

(29 Dec 2016, 1:34 pm)V514DFT wrote Still no announcements on indigo north tyne

Yeah I had one working on the 42, but nothing since. The ones on the 40 said 42 to Wallsend as opposed to 40 to Wallsend too.

(29 Dec 2016, 1:34 pm)V514DFT wrote Still no announcements on indigo north tyne

Ok, thanks.

Going forward, could you please Private Message me with any faults? That, or contact Go North East through the appropriate channels (ie via Customer Services)?

I'm off work until the middle of January so can't investigate until then but I don't think this constitutes as latest news.

6144 branded:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/3184...ateposted/

I would have liked it if they had replaced the old logo on the front with the new one as used on the rest of the branding but other than that, it looks really good.

(29 Dec 2016, 5:03 pm)S813 FVK wrote 6144 branded:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/3184...ateposted/

Looks decent.

New logo below the cab window, and old logo on the front. Mix and match?

I was wondering the reasoning behind GNE's decision to operate a Saturday service on 27th December but a Sunday service on 2nd January when both are public holidays?   Would there be a massive difference in demand on both days?

(29 Dec 2016, 4:34 pm)Dan wrote Ok, thanks.

Going forward, could you please Private Message me with any faults? That, or contact Go North East through the appropriate channels (ie via Customer Services)?

I'm off work until the middle of January so can't investigate until then but I don't think this constitutes as latest news.

Well the Q3 only works on 5389, 5390 and 8313

(30 Dec 2016, 12:08 pm)NK53 TKT wrote Well the Q3 only works on 5389, 5390 and 8313

Can I reiterate what I said in my previous post..?

This forum shouldn't be used to log faults. General discussion on Next Stop Announcements and other new technology on buses, yes. Individual faults / feedback, no. If you wish to do the latter, send me a Private Message.

3887 has had its 'Northern' fleet names removed. I imagine 3889 will have too.

6137 (or 27 - definitely looked like a 7 at the end) also looks to have been partially repainted into the new corporate livery too.


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