(12 Feb 2017, 9:09 pm)Andreos1 wrote It is a gripe of mine and as my demand for the service is inelastic (I have no choice but to pay the fare charged) - it often feels that venting is a form of therapy.

> Isn't that the point though? Bus fares are high because Demand is inelastic. 

Anyway, I was reading an old post from March 2015 where there was comment about the high fares on the 20, particularly between Houghton and Durham (who could have posted that comment I wonder?!). The single fare for that trip was £4.00. In less than two years, the fare has risen by almost 5%! 
Do salaries increase that much over the same timescale?

> Some in the private sector may have had 5% rises over the last two years. Us in the public sector; 4% in 8 years!

As a comparison; First Manchester increased their fares by 7% last month, but those with internet banking and iphones who agreed to use mtickets were spared. First's argument (as mentioned in the trade press) is that the use of mtickets would speed up boarding by 75%. They claimed that without any mtickets, it takes 10.5 minutes to board 50 passengers. When has a driver EVER had anything like 10 minutes to board a full load? 

7%?! That's a canny hike. Over what sort of period was that? Is it for all tickets or just certain types?

I still struggle to believe mobile tickets increase boarding times as quickly as stated. I've seen similar comments to the ones you have seen and I can't get my head around it - particularly when drivers have to squint at phones or the app (inevitably crashes).

For once, I have to agree with eezypeazy (shock horror) and say that there is some elasticity with passengers - even if it is just some passengers. Maybe it all depends on the alternatives for them?

Without making this all about me (I'm only giving examples of bus use), I thought I would share the options when travelling to and from the station.

* Blag a lift. Not always an option, due to other people's commitments. 

* Use a taxi. When a taxi is hitting the £20 mark and you're using it a few times a week, it soon adds up.

* Park at the station. Durham station doesn't have the biggest car park in the world and it costs circa £13 a day. It is a gamble taking the car through. The walk from the bigger of the car parks to platform 1 isn't easy with luggage/bags.

* Use the bus. Pay £4.20 singles, unless returning the same day.

If I still lived in Durham, instantly at least two of the options become more viable. Walking could even be an option.
For those who do live nearer the station, then demand has the elasticy mentioned - including the choice of bus operator. An increase by one operator in a previously competitive fare may see passengers use an alternative option.

(12 Feb 2017, 9:09 pm)Andreos1 wrote is there another service (whatever the operator) that has seen such an increase in the same period?....

Erm, yes. Back in 1982, ALL bus fares in Tyne and Wear were increased by THIRTY per cent by local politicians after a two year freeze. (see Route One magazine, 2 October 2013). That was when local buses were run by the politically-controlled PTE (as Nexus was then) through the erstwhile Tyne and Wear County Council.

It rather makes your six per cent in two years sound very reasonable, doesn't it?

(13 Feb 2017, 8:57 am)eezypeazy wrote Erm, yes. Back in 1982, ALL bus fares in Tyne and Wear were increased by THIRTY per cent by local politicians after a two year freeze. (see Route One magazine, 2 October 2013). That was when local buses were run by the politically-controlled PTE (as Nexus was then) through the erstwhile Tyne and Wear County Council.

It rather makes your six per cent in two years sound very reasonable, doesn't it?

Do you have a link or a photo of the article? I would love to see it.

Whilst the increase you mention was quite a jump, it still doesn't excuse the 6% increase witnessed by some passengers on the 20.

I might do some sums later to calculate the percentage increase seen when the old Tyne & Wear Go n Save ticket was replaced by the coloured Buzzfare tickets. Off the top of my head some journeys doubled in price overnight.

(13 Feb 2017, 8:57 am)eezypeazy wrote Erm, yes. Back in 1982, ALL bus fares in Tyne and Wear were increased by THIRTY per cent by local politicians after a two year freeze. (see Route One magazine, 2 October 2013). That was when local buses were run by the politically-controlled PTE (as Nexus was then) through the erstwhile Tyne and Wear County Council.

It rather makes your six per cent in two years sound very reasonable, doesn't it?

And what was general inflation - never mind wage increases - like in 1982? Interestingly enough, GMPTE started a fare freeze that same year, and only increased fares again just before De-reg.

(12 Feb 2017, 11:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote 7%?! That's a canny hike. Over what sort of period was that? Is it for all tickets or just certain types?

I still struggle to believe mobile tickets increase boarding times as quickly as stated. I've seen similar comments to the ones you have seen and I can't get my head around it - particularly when drivers have to squint at phones or the app (inevitably crashes).

For once, I have to agree with eezypeazy (shock horror) and say that there is some elasticity with passengers - even if it is just some passengers. Maybe it all depends on the alternatives for them?

Without making this all about me (I'm only giving examples of bus use), I thought I would share the options when travelling to and from the station.

* Blag a lift. Not always an option, due to other people's commitments. 

* Use a taxi. When a taxi is hitting the £20 mark and you're using it a few times a week, it soon adds up.

* Park at the station. Durham station doesn't have the biggest car park in the world and it costs circa £13 a day. It is a gamble taking the car through. The walk from the bigger of the car parks to platform 1 isn't easy with luggage/bags.

* Use the bus. Pay £4.20 singles, unless returning the same day.

If I still lived in Durham, instantly at least two of the options become more viable. Walking could even be an option.
For those who do live nearer the station, then demand has the elasticy mentioned - including the choice of bus operator. An increase by one operator in a previously competitive fare may see passengers use an alternative option.

The 7% is for Day, weekly and monthly tickets. Single fares went up slightly more modestly, but that assumes fare stages weren't moved at the same time.

The point about elasticity is that services are deteriorating fastest in low(er) car ownership areas, with "bus wars" (with reduced fares) reserved either for trendy areas with increasing affluence (commuters). 

"Blagging a lift" is usually a non starter, as the car-less tend to be single, have fewer friends locally, and have different travelling patterns to car owning friends and relations. Also, and am not sure if this is still true today; Friends don't tend to offer lifts unless its likely to be returned "in kind".

Taxis: If you can afford regular taxi fares, you can afford a car! Again, the car-less don't usually travel to the same place at the same time as friends/relatives with a car.

Car parking: Obviously not relevant to the car-less, but I'm surprised parking at a rail station is so expensive.  I think parking at Manchester Piccadilly is about £4 a day, but it might be more expensive before 0930ish on weekdays. Only Manchester Airport, Hospitals and some city centre Car parks charge large fees in GM. Where services are deteriorating in the poorer suburbs, most parking is free - thanks to Supermarkets.

(13 Feb 2017, 2:57 pm)Tamesider wrote The 7% is for Day, weekly and monthly tickets. Single fares went up slightly more modestly, but that assumes fare stages weren't moved at the same time.

The point about elasticity is that services are deteriorating fastest in low(er) car ownership areas, with "bus wars" (with reduced fares) reserved either for trendy areas with increasing affluence (commuters). 

"Blagging a lift" is usually a non starter, as the car-less tend to be single, have fewer friends locally, and have different travelling patterns to car owning friends and relations. Also, and am not sure if this is still true today; Friends don't tend to offer lifts unless its likely to be returned "in kind".

Taxis: If you can afford regular taxi fares, you can afford a car! Again, the car-less don't usually travel to the same place at the same time as friends/relatives with a car.

Car parking: Obviously not relevant to the car-less, but I'm surprised parking at a rail station is so expensive.  I think parking at Manchester Piccadilly is about £4 a day, but it might be more expensive before 0930ish on weekdays. Only Manchester Airport, Hospitals and some city centre Car parks charge large fees in GM. Where services are deteriorating in the poorer suburbs, most parking is free - thanks to Supermarkets.

Found a blog on First Manchester fares.
https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/2016...re-freeze/
I'm not doubting what you are saying about the 7%, but I could only see it on the weekly ticket - using the figures provided. The monthly ticket was closer to a GNE increase.

However, I do like that bundle deal they're offering. The app is also available on Windows Phone!

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/th...m-station/
Details of the parking costs at the station. The location of the station  (at the top of a very steep hill), doesn't lend itself to parking in another car park.

(13 Feb 2017, 9:19 pm)Andreos1 wrote Found a blog on First Manchester fares.
https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/2016...re-freeze/
I'm not doubting what you are saying about the 7%, but I could only see it on the weekly ticket - using the figures provided. The monthly ticket was closer to a GNE increase.

However, I do like that bundle deal they're offering. The app is also available on Windows Phone!

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/th...m-station/
Details of the parking costs at the station. The location of the station  (at the top of a very steep hill), doesn't lend itself to parking in another car park.

Sorry, I was wrong about monthly/annual, but Day tickets still go up about 7%. I'm not sure how many people risk monthly, let alone annual tickets, with passengers either liable to job change, or only ever 8 weeks away from a possible service change/reduction.

The flaw in the argument about boarding times is fairly obvious: Relatively few people pay with cash, especially after 0900 on Mon/Tues. And even then another possible solution would be to re-instate the ban on £20 notes, originally introduced by both First and Stagecoach on Police advice, due to the large numbers of forgeries in circulation.

(13 Feb 2017, 9:34 pm)Tamesider wrote Sorry, I was wrong about monthly/annual, but Day tickets still go up about 7%. I'm not sure how many people risk monthly, let alone annual tickets, with passengers either liable to job change, or only ever 8 weeks away from a possible service change/reduction.

The flaw in the argument about boarding times is fairly obvious: Relatively few people pay with cash, especially after 0900 on Mon/Tues. And even then another possible solution would be to re-instate the ban on £20 notes, originally introduced by both First and Stagecoach on Police advice, due to the large numbers of forgeries in circulation.

A trial between the exact change offer like Lothian introduced and a mobile ticket would be interesting! 

After the initial costs in sourcing the app and any additional charges, I wonder what the cost saving is for the operator between a mobile ticket and paper ticket? I imagine the costs of having a mobile ticket offer is pretty stable compared to those costs incurred with paper tickets.
Are we talking marginal amounts or are we talking amounts that is going to increase margins?
However, unless operators find a way around it, the paper tickets offer a revenue stream via advertising.

(13 Feb 2017, 9:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote A trial between the exact change offer like Lothian introduced and a mobile ticket would be interesting! 

After the initial costs in sourcing the app and any additional charges, I wonder what the cost saving is for the operator between a mobile ticket and paper ticket? I imagine the costs of having a mobile ticket offer is pretty stable compared to those costs incurred with paper tickets.
Are we talking marginal amounts or are we talking amounts that is going to increase margins?
However, unless operators find a way around it, the paper tickets offer a revenue stream via advertising.

I think we'll be hard pressed to find any actual figures to compare, but I imagine the savings for a large company like stagecoach will be considerable. If the system was cash-less there would be insurance savings on the buses themselves and the buildings the cash is kept in. There would be no outlay to g4s or similar for collecting and banking the cash. There would also be big labour savings as the cash-out process when returning to depot for takes a few minutes per driver.

Trying x36 to get to redhouse today. Stuck on 570. So uncomfortable and paying £1.85 for the pleasure.

Really can't see it doing any better and ultimately getting changed soon.

(22 Feb 2017, 9:18 am)idiot wrote Trying x36 to get to redhouse today. Stuck on 570. So uncomfortable and paying £1.85 for the pleasure.

Really can't see it doing any better and ultimately getting changed soon.

To be fair £1.85 isn't bad considering it's £2.20 on Stagecoach services.

(22 Feb 2017, 10:19 am)Tom wrote To be fair £1.85 isn't bad considering it's £2.20 on Stagecoach services.

True - but the gas buses are better than the mpd lol

(22 Feb 2017, 11:08 am)idiot wrote True - but the gas buses are better than the mpd lol

And the 16 runs every 10 minutes... Along with free wifi.

(13 Feb 2017, 10:48 pm)James101 wrote I think we'll be hard pressed to find any actual figures to compare, but I imagine the savings for a large company like stagecoach will be considerable. If the system was cash-less there would be insurance savings on the buses themselves and the buildings the cash is kept in. There would be no outlay to g4s or similar for collecting and banking the cash. There would also be big labour savings as the cash-out process when returning to depot for takes a few minutes per driver.

Sorry, missed this at the time.

I think you are right and the savings will be significant.
There are all of the things you mention plus the savings in ticket paper. 
If a proportion of customers don't need a ticket, then the operators don't need to purchase as many rolls.

Arriva is making fare changes on 28th May:

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/north-east/L...Nqc0O.dpuf

Copied from GNE Thread: -

 Only then, we will have a fully integrated travel policy, and I\m  sDan Wrote:
    Oxford Bus Company recently installed the same machines and have confirmed that they have the ability of accepting contactless payments:
    https://www.oxfordbus.co.uk/serviceupdat...-machines/

    It has recently been confirmed to Go North East drivers that contactless payments will shortly be enabled on the machines, following completion of full rollout of the new machines at all depots.

When Bank Contact-less Debit Card are enabled, can we see a revamp to capped multi operator fares introduced across the NECTA (Expanded Nexus) zones area so that we can see Day tickets ( buzz fare) from Stanley and Consett to the Airport  Return etc... for c. £7.00  - As similar mileage area is available within Tyne & Wear (Nexus' current area e.g.West/East Rainton to Airport via GNE and Metro)

Only then, will we have a truly integrated transport policy, and all  parties will benefit  (Customers and Operators - "GNE et al"). Currently it is cheaper to  go via Taxi from Stanley/ Consett to Airport return for 2 or more passengers,and especially/ significantly for a day trip for even one traveller!

Really need to get this multi-operator pricing right and fairer based on mileage at least!

(Copied in GNE thread)

Fares are going up on GNE services - quite a big increase for weekly Buzzfare tickets I think too noticed a poster on the bus but didn't get a chance to read it properly.

(23 Jun 2017, 1:58 pm)Tom wrote Fares are going up on GNE services - quite a big increase for weekly Buzzfare tickets I think too noticed a poster on the bus but didn't get a chance to read it properly.

Another and somewhat indefensible rise so soon. Kerching shareholders!

Another fare increase not advertised on buses or social media for GNE. Well I had enough change for £1.45 but not £1.50 bus driver wasn't happy with a £20 note but it's not my fault! Its the company!

As people are ranting about fare increases:

Arriva have now put the new paper timetables for the July changes out in the Travelshops (as well as the Frequenta 27/27a version ) in the new format. This is as a fold-out version of similar size to some of Go North East's. Timetables are on both sides (in similar format to Go North East's - one direction one side, return on the other). However, in place of the advertising banner on the opposite side to the front and rear cover, it instead advertises locations along the route (in terms of the X12) or handy connections to locations served by MAX and Sapphire. It additionally has fare information - single and return fares between major points as well as day and weekly prices. A A+ to Arriva in my opinion for that

(30 Jun 2017, 10:35 am)idiot wrote Another fare increase not advertised on buses or social media for GNE. Well I had enough change for £1.45 but not £1.50 bus driver wasn't happy with a £20 note but it's not my fault! Its the company!

I definitely saw a notice on buses that I have been on prior to the 28th which notified customers of the fare changes.

(30 Jun 2017, 12:56 pm)Kuyoyo wrote As people are ranting about fare increases:

Arriva have now put the new paper timetables for the July changes out in the Travelshops (as well as the Frequenta 27/27a version ) in the new format. This is as a fold-out version of similar size to some of Go North East's. Timetables are on both sides (in similar format to Go North East's - one direction one side, return on the other). However, in place of the advertising banner on the opposite side to the front and rear cover, it instead advertises locations along the route (in terms of the X12) or handy connections to locations served by MAX and Sapphire. It additionally has fare information - single and return fares between major points as well as day and weekly prices. A A+ to Arriva in my opinion for that

Agreed. Good to see singles/returns on there.

(30 Jun 2017, 10:35 am)idiot wrote Another fare increase not advertised on buses or social media for GNE. Well I had enough change for £1.45 but not £1.50 bus driver wasn't happy with a £20 note but it's not my fault! Its the company!

There were a few caught out yesterday and today, on the few buses that I have used. There were only two that had to pay with a note as an alternative. 

I don't doubt that the company have put posters up on the bus, but at the same time, I do think that they deliberately tart the whole affair up as much as possible. The image below is what was put on the bus, which is hardly informative to the customer, given the wide range of increases that appear to have occurred. 



I appreciate that price increases, for any company, is a negative message to pass on to your customers. You're bound to get some flack for it - its inevitable. But I would be more annoyed about it being hidden from me. 

I believe these posters were the only format that the increases went out in. Not a single thing online or on social media about this, so its not an equality proof method for a start.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/num...t-10718818

Pricing being blamed as a factor in overall passenger numbers/journeys dropping.

(01 Jul 2017, 7:57 am)Andreos1 wrote http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/num...t-10718818

Pricing being blamed as a factor in overall passenger numbers/journeys dropping.

9.2% in 7 years! Is there a superfluous decimal point in there. Bus fares for single, essential journeys under 2.5 miles in GM have gone up more than three times inflation since De-reg. From the comment above about a £1.45 going to £1.50, I assume the same doesn't apply in the North East - despite my health problems, even I wouldn't catch a bus for less than half a mile.

It's gone from £2.85 to £3.00 for a single from Birtley to Newcastle.

No wonder usage is down, that fare is appallingly high. The unscrupulous way they've hidden the rise has been more disappointing. The vehicles they use on the 21 are getting worse, the service has been cut...for what?

Private companies are bringing little benefit to users but I imagine there's little appetite for higher taxes to support public ownership.

(01 Jul 2017, 7:47 pm)Ambassador wrote It's gone from £2.85 to £3.00 for a single from Birtley to Newcastle.

No wonder usage is down, that fare is appallingly high.  The unscrupulous way they've  hidden the rise has been more disappointing. The vehicles they use on the 21 are getting worse, the service has been cut...for what?

Private companies are bringing little benefit to users but I imagine there's little appetite for higher taxes to support public ownership.

Eclipsed by events 5 miles from where I sit that night, the BBC Economics reporter from your neck of the woods (Steph something) made an absolutely priceless link, without the slightest sense of irony. She was chairing a debate outside Carlisle Rail Station on 22nd May, about Austerity, and how it had decimated Social Care and..yes.. rural bus services in Cumbria. At the end she referenced that now common phrase "Magic Money Tree", before saying "after the local news we will be talking to the producers of the Fifteen Billion Pound Railway". 

Just checked the equivalent journey to the above example (6.2 miles) on Stagecoach Manchester and the Single is £3.40. Note though, that £3.40 fare kicks in at single journeys of 4.01 miles.

Some of the fares are a disgrace in Stanley too...

For example
Burnopfield to Metrocentre (6 miles) - £4.40 single
Stanley to Metrocentre (8 miles) - £5.10
Consett to Stanley (7 miles) - £4.40
Pretty shocking fares as for example Hexham to Newcastle 23 miles or so is the same price as 8 miles from Stanley to
Metro centre.

And as well I only think the Buzzfare is a rip off for most people and the zones are pointless.

(01 Jul 2017, 9:27 pm)Tom wrote Some of the fares are a disgrace in Stanley too...

For example
Burnopfield to Metrocentre (6 miles) - £4.40 single
Stanley to Metrocentre (8 miles) - £5.10
Consett to Stanley (7 miles) - £4.40
Pretty shocking fares as for example Hexham to Newcastle 23 miles or so is the same price as 8 miles from Stanley to
Metro centre.

And as well I only think the Buzzfare is a rip off for most people and the zones are pointless.

The difference being of course that Stanley is a monopoly and they can charge whatever the hell they want. A downside of private ownership. 

Buzzfare is a bit of a rip off as it's cynically designed to extract as much cash from you by clever zone placement. 

At least GNE are embracing contactless...You'll be needing a bank card to travel with them soon!