(05 Aug 2017, 7:51 pm)James101 wrote I'm renewing my company car next month so I've been looking at car leasing websites a lot this weekend. For cheap motoring, you can lease a Toyota Aygo from £70/month, inclusive of servicing, breakdown cover, tyres etc. Add in, say £100 month for fuel & insurance. It's only about £2/day more expensive than using a GNE 3+ zone month pass.

My car is paid off now. Has been a few years.
Even with the insurance, tax and repairs/servicing it is cheaper than using public transport.

The bizarre sight of petrol prices dropping and bus fares increasing, just makes it even cheaper.

(05 Aug 2017, 7:51 pm)James101 wrote I'm renewing my company car next month so I've been looking at car leasing websites a lot this weekend. For cheap motoring, you can lease a Toyota Aygo from £70/month, inclusive of servicing, breakdown cover, tyres etc. Add in, say £100 month for fuel & insurance. It's only about £2/day more expensive than using a GNE 3+ zone month pass.

(05 Aug 2017, 7:57 pm)Andreos1 wrote My car is paid off now. Has been a few years.
Even with the insurance, tax and repairs/servicing it is cheaper than using public transport.

The bizarre sight of petrol prices dropping and bus fares increasing, just makes it even cheaper.

For the journeys I undertake, I would need a monthly/annual Go North East 3+ zone ticket. An annual ticket, if my memory serves me correctly, is around the £1,000 mark. Probably a little bit more expensive now, given the price increase not so long ago. The cost of this ticket is cheaper than what I pay to insure my car alone, without even considering any extra costs such as petrol, tax and repairs/servicing.

I bought my car outright so don't have to worry about monthly repayments, but I spend at least £40/week (£160/month) on petrol. That covers my journeys to and from work, a small amount of mileage associated with my job, and a small amount of personal mileage outside of work. Just shy of £2,000 in petrol, over the course of the year.

Thankfully my place of work has a car park for staff - not everyone is so lucky - but if I worked in a busy City Centre, there's a chance I'd also have to pay to park, which would be another cost that I'd face.

Someone in a similar position to me would save a lot of money travelling by bus (appreciating that my age and choice of car plays a big part in the costs I face as someone who travels by car).

I'm not so sure that petrol prices are still dropping? There was a big drop towards the end of 2014/start of 2015, but the price of petrol has steadily climbed again since then. It fluctuates a fair bit, but for every month this year, the average price of petrol has been higher than it was in 2016?
Source: https://www.petrolprices.com/the-price-of-fuel.html

(05 Aug 2017, 7:29 pm)Dan wrote Isn't the purpose of the SmartZone scheme to allow passengers to travel on more than one operator? Why, if that is the case, would you ever expect it would be rolled out to Washington? Passengers would be paying a premium to travel on more than one operator in an area where there is just one.

The only time I'd imagine it would ever be considered by the SmartZone partners, is if the scheme permitted adding more than one zone to your ticket (i.e. Sunderland plus Washington), but even still, this would be priced higher than the comparable monthly ticket with one operator.

If you think travelling by bus is expensive, then perhaps you should weigh up the option of travelling by car (taking into account the cost of car, insurance, wear and tear of things such as tyres, petrol, etc).

It is when you have to use Go North East as a bus operator, hell this upcoming Tuesday I am using Cross Country from Newcastle to York, then on Thursday I am using the Megabus from Leeds back to Newcastle which has only cost me £4 for each journey which is cheaper than a GNE 1 Zone Day Ticket, see below the cost comparison between GNE, SNE & ANE based on Day, Weekly and Monthly passes, does not include Route/Area Day, Weekly and Monthly passes as I am merely going off of cost of the operators standard tickets.

Stagecoach North East
Dayrider = £4 - 7 Days = £13.50 - Monthly = £51.50
Dayrider Plus (All Zones) = £5 - 7 Day = £16.00 - Monthly = £61.50

Go North East
1 Zone Day Ticket = £5.10 - 7 Days = £21 - Monthly = £68
2 Zone Day Ticket = £6.50 - 7 Days = £27 - Monthly = £89
3 Zone+ (All Zones) Day Ticket = £8 = 7 Days = £34 = Monthly - £105

Arriva North East - Northumberland & Tyne + Wear Tickets
1 Zone = £4.40 - 7 Days = £17.80 - Monthly = £65.00 
2 Zones = £6.00 - 7 Days = £23.50 - Monthly = £85.00
All Zones = £7.00 - 7 Days = £26.00 - Monthly = £91.00

Are Go North East's fares justifiable now compared to it's competitors who are evidently cheaper.

(05 Aug 2017, 7:57 pm)Andreos1 wrote My car is paid off now. Has been a few years.
Even with the insurance, tax and repairs/servicing it is cheaper than using public transport.

The bizarre sight of petrol prices dropping and bus fares increasing, just makes it even cheaper.

Bizarre it might be, but it has been going on for a number of years. Since De-reg, Single bus fares in GM have increased at more than 3 times the increase in fuel for motorists - albeit Daily/weekly tickets had risen at a more moderate rate*. However, they too now are racing ahead of fuel costs (about the same as RPI).

I don't drive, so would have take my brother's costings as a comparison. His journey to/from work is about 55 miles a week, and during the school hols it is taking him around 25 mins, achieving 40 mpg (Diesel Focus). During school term it can take 40, or more when there are roadworks/police incidents/accidents on the M60 (which is frequent), so I'm guessing fuel consumption won't be so good. Anyway, for now with diesel at £1.12 p lt, its costing about 12p a mile. That's £6.60 a week (parking is free). A weekly MegaRider is £14.50 (which he'd need if the journey was 15.1 miles a week, never mind 55), and the bus would take 40 minutes on paper plus connection time (M'cr Picc), plus walking at both ends. During the hols, this might be slightly quicker in the morning, but if anything, slower in the evening - more scheduled roadworks, more shopping traffic etc. Other than the occasional night out boozing, and MoT time, he never uses the bus as its too expensive, slow, unpunctual and infrequent (for evening Shopping).

I've always argued that fixed costs of motoring are an ENcouragement, not a DIScouragement. Why spend a fortune on tax and insurance just to have a car sat depreciating in the garage? But for the record his Insurance is £450, which he's not happy about as its "above average", he says.

*I've had cause to investigate fares on individual routes recently, and I might be a bit generalising in this statement. There seems to be greater variations in Stagecoach fares than I at first thought. Certainly, preliminary work for the GM Mayor on franchising looks like it is going to reveal some big differences in profit margins across the numerous corridors into Manchester.

(05 Aug 2017, 7:56 pm)citaro5284 wrote But who wants to drive a Toyota Aygo 

Tell me about it, a while ago I was given a Hyundai i10 for the day while my car was in for recall work. It was like Hyundai had gone out of their way to make it purposely bad. Still, better than being a passenger on many buses on the road. 

(05 Aug 2017, 7:57 pm)Andreos1 wrote My car is paid off now. Has been a few years.
Even with the insurance, tax and repairs/servicing it is cheaper than using public transport.

The bizarre sight of petrol prices dropping and bus fares increasing, just makes it even cheaper.

I use car leasing as an example just because I've been looking at it lately. But for personal use, leasing is a stupid idea. Of course owning your car outright makes it even cheaper! 

(05 Aug 2017, 7:58 pm)Dan wrote For the journeys I undertake, I would need a monthly/annual Go North East 3+ zone ticket. An annual ticket, if my memory serves me correctly, is around the £1,000 mark. Probably a little bit more expensive now, given the price increase not so long ago. The cost of this ticket is cheaper than what I pay to insure my car alone, without even considering any extra costs such as petrol, tax and repairs/servicing.

I bought my car outright so don't have to worry about monthly repayments, but I spend at least £40/week (£160/month) on petrol. That covers my journeys to and from work, a small amount of mileage associated with my job, and a small amount of personal mileage outside of work. Just shy of £2,000 in petrol, over the course of the year.

Thankfully my place of work has a car park for staff - not everyone is so lucky - but if I worked in a busy City Centre, there's a chance I'd also have to pay to park, which would be another cost that I'd face.

Someone in a similar position to me would save a lot of money travelling by bus (appreciating that my age and choice of car plays a big part in the costs I face as someone who travels by car).

I'm not so sure that petrol prices are still dropping? There was a big drop towards the end of 2014/start of 2015, but the price of petrol has steadily climbed again since then. It fluctuates a fair bit, but for every month this year, the average price of petrol has been higher than it was in 2016?
Source: https://www.petrolprices.com/the-price-of-fuel.html

For anyone under 21 (not sure if this applies to you), public transport almost certainly will be cheaper.  I purchased my first car 3 years after I passed my test, as between my Arriva Teen Card & GNE Get Around, there was enough incentive for me not to drive. 

I was challenging the assumption driving is more expensive than taking the bus. If we take a median of circumstance (age, milage, access to parking etc) and then the bare-bones cost of no-frills motoring - it works out about the same cost. That's before we factor in the 'added-value' of having a car - freedom, access to more employment & leisure opportunities and the fact I've just drove to the shop to buy some beer to have with my take-away. Couldn't do that on the bus.

(05 Aug 2017, 7:23 pm)Malarkey wrote Don't expect the NE Smart Zone to be expanded into other areas such as Washington & Gateshead, was informed by Alan at Washington Travel Office the reason this hasn't happened is because Go North East has the monopoly of services, with no competition from the likes of Stagecoach and Arriva in the area, compared to the areas the Smart Zone operates currently, personally think I would rather see the Go-Ahead Group withdraw from area than be continuously robbed for bus fare on a monthly basis as let's face it, it won't be that long before i'll have to pay £2 or more for a single to The Galleries.

Perhaps your question would be better placed asking why Arriva or Stagecoach don't run services into Washington or Gateshead? There'd be little point having a scheme in an area with one operator, as you may as well buy their own product anyway. Washington couldn't realistically be added to the Sunderland scheme either, as then you would have to include other settlements - i.e. Houghton & Hetton. Which a Network One ticket would cover.

I do take the point about the increase of fares, and in my opinion, they're rising too rapidly. Certainly far beyond the rate of inflation.

(05 Aug 2017, 8:28 pm)Malarkey wrote It is when you have to use Go North East as a bus operator, hell this upcoming Tuesday I am using Cross Country from Newcastle to York, then on Thursday I am using the Megabus from Leeds back to Newcastle which has only cost me £4 for each journey which is cheaper than a GNE 1 Zone Day Ticket, see below the cost comparison between GNE, SNE & ANE based on Day, Weekly and Monthly passes, does not include Route/Area Day, Weekly and Monthly passes as I am merely going off of cost of the operators standard tickets.

Stagecoach North East
Dayrider = £4 - 7 Days = £13.50 - Monthly = £51.50
Dayrider Plus (All Zones) = £5 - 7 Day = £16.00 - Monthly = £61.50

Go North East
1 Zone Day Ticket = £5.10 - 7 Days = £21 - Monthly = £68
2 Zone Day Ticket = £6.50 - 7 Days = £27 - Monthly = £89
3 Zone+ (All Zones) Day Ticket = £8 = 7 Days = £34 = Monthly - £105

Arriva North East - Northumberland & Tyne + Wear Tickets
1 Zone = £4.40 - 7 Days = £17.80 - Monthly = £65.00 
2 Zones = £6.00 - 7 Days = £23.50 - Monthly = £85.00
All Zones = £7.00 - 7 Days = £26.00 - Monthly = £91.00

Are Go North East's fares justifiable now compared to it's competitors who are evidently cheaper.

All three of those operators are serving different areas, so you can't really compare them like for like. For example, your Megarider Plus all zones ticket is only actually Tyne and Wear. If you wanted to use the whole NE Stagecoach network, you'd need a Teesside & Hartlepool one too, which is another £59.50... a total of £121 a month.

You've also only included the Northumberland & Tyne and Wear tickets for Arriva. If you look at County Durham, the situation is a lot different. For example, Coxhoe/Kelloe to Durham is £60.00 a month on a Durham District ticket. Thornley to Durham (around the same distance) is £85.50 with a Durham County ticket. Why should that be the case?

The positioning of zones is the issue for me, rather than looking that prices of all zone tickets. On the most part, these 'simplified' zones, do not work in a customers favour, and you're often forced to purchase beyond what you should need. The boundaries of course have to be put somewhere, but there are ways and means of doing this so that customers don't lose out. e.g. the 'Newcastle City area' for GNE including Purple and Blue tickets, or the Arriva Durham District ticket being valid on the X12 through to Newcastle.

If Stagecoach was in Hebburn, I would use their buses because it is cheaper and better than Go North East for value for money.

Also Stagecoach and Arriva do use Gateshead which should have Gateshead Smartzone and I wish NE Smartzone was for Tyne and Wear only not divied Zones because I live in Hebburn it cost me £4.20 return to Newcastle very expensive with no day ticket from GNE. Shame too costly.

(05 Aug 2017, 8:37 pm)Tamesider wrote Bizarre it might be, but it has been going on for a number of years. Since De-reg, Single bus fares in GM have increased at more than 3 times the increase in fuel for motorists - albeit Daily/weekly tickets had risen at a more moderate rate*. However, they too now are racing ahead of fuel costs (about the same as RPI).

I don't drive, so would have take my brother's costings as a comparison. His journey to/from work is about 55 miles a week, and during the school hols it is taking him around 25 mins, achieving 40 mpg (Diesel Focus). During school term it can take 40, or more when there are roadworks/police incidents/accidents on the M60 (which is frequent), so I'm guessing fuel consumption won't be so good. Anyway, for now with diesel at £1.12 p lt, its costing about 12p a mile. That's £6.60 a week (parking is free). A weekly MegaRider is £14.50 (which he'd need if the journey was 15.1 miles a week, never mind 55), and the bus would take 40 minutes on paper plus connection time (M'cr Picc), plus walking at both ends. During the hols, this might be slightly quicker in the morning, but if anything, slower in the evening - more scheduled roadworks, more shopping traffic etc. Other than the occasional night out boozing, and MoT time, he never uses the bus as its too expensive, slow, unpunctual and infrequent (for evening Shopping).

I've always argued that fixed costs of motoring are an ENcouragement, not a DIScouragement. Why spend a fortune on tax and insurance just to have a car sat depreciating in the garage? But for the record his Insurance is £450, which he's not happy about as its "above average", he says.

*I've had cause to investigate fares on individual routes recently, and I might be a bit generalising in this statement. There seems to be greater variations in Stagecoach fares than I at first thought. Certainly, preliminary work for the GM Mayor on franchising looks like it is going to reveal some big differences in profit margins across the numerous corridors into Manchester.

It is interesting you touch on the duration of his trips.
Without a doubt, my day would start earlier and end a lot later if I used public transport on a daily basis over the car.

Time is money as they say and with the removal of a number of direct services and consolidation of routes in Tyne & Wear, a journey can take a lot longer door to door than it did a few years ago - regardless of any additional traffic that may exist.
A trip to Newcastle on what would have been a through service is now not possible, but there is the additional waiting time, hanging around for the connection on to the 'sort of' replacement.
During the day, this hanging around may be 5/10 mins. On an evening or weekend (Sundays especially), it could be half an hour.

Banging my head gainst a wall at Arriva's child ticket options.

Until we move, I need to get littlun to school myself - 2 buses each way, every day. I'm easy. I can get a County Durham 4 weekly ticket for £85.50 or push the boat out and go for an all zones one at £95. And use my phone for it.

The only option for littl'un is a daily child ticket at £5. I might as well get an adult durham county weekly ticket on the bus for £25, then it can be used at weekends, too.

I need to pull my finger out, make bigun shutup with the bored and get him to clayport library for a disabled bus pass, methinks. Task for the morning, though we need to head into Newcastle to collect something.

(29 Aug 2017, 9:05 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Banging my head gainst a wall at Arriva's child ticket options.

Until we move, I need to get littlun to school myself - 2 buses each way, every day. I'm easy. I can get a County Durham 4 weekly ticket for £85.50 or push the boat out and go for an all zones one at £95. And use my phone for it.

The only option for littl'un is a daily child ticket at £5. I might as well get an adult durham county weekly ticket on the bus for £25, then it can be used at weekends, too.

I need to pull my finger out, make bigun shutup with the bored and get him to clayport library for a disabled bus pass, methinks. Task for the morning, though we need to head into Newcastle to collect something.

Arriva's child fares in Durham are absolutely disgraceful!

Is this of any use? http://www.durham.gov.uk/article/1983/Ap...s-bus-card

(29 Aug 2017, 9:13 pm)Adrian wrote Arriva's child fares in Durham are absolutely disgraceful!

Is this of any use? http://www.durham.gov.uk/article/1983/Ap...s-bus-card

Unlike bigun, who is a man sized, gruff, smelly 13 year old, littlun is still very obviously under 14. He is very disabled, though, so I definitely need to pursue that particular path. He doesn't get higher rate mobility, but it doesn't take a medical expert to work out that he's not the sort of 11 year old who can hop on a bus alone to visit grandma or meet mates.

The fact that the only option is £5 per day is what's floored me. I can travel anywhere in the NE for £95 per month! Sadly, I can only use one of those tickets at a time on my phone, unless I commandeer bigun's phone for him on school days!

(29 Aug 2017, 9:48 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Unlike bigun, who is a man sized, gruff, smelly 13 year old, littlun is still very obviously under 14. He is very disabled, though, so I definitely need to pursue that particular path. He doesn't get higher rate mobility, but it doesn't take a medical expert to work out that he's not the sort of 11 year old who can hop on a bus alone to visit grandma or meet mates.

The fact that the only option is £5 per day is what's floored me. I can travel anywhere in the NE for £95 per month! Sadly, I can only use one of those tickets at a time on my phone, unless I commandeer bigun's phone for him on school days!

They do the teen card where a single is £1 or is that just Tyne and Wear/Northumberland?

(29 Aug 2017, 11:24 pm)Tom wrote They do the teen card where a single is £1 or is that just Tyne and Wear/Northumberland?

Unless it's changed in the past year and a bit, I think they're only valid on a weekend, during school holidays, and after 18:00 on a weekday?

(30 Aug 2017, 12:08 am)mb134 wrote Unless it's changed in the past year and a bit, I think they're only valid on a weekend, during school holidays, and after 18:00 on a weekday?

Ah right, what a stupid idea...

(29 Aug 2017, 11:24 pm)Tom wrote They do the teen card where a single is £1 or is that just Tyne and Wear/Northumberland?

I'm not sure how it works in Northumberland, but POP entitles those in Tyne and Wear to the 60p/£1.10 single/day ticket. But then again T&W is funded via an ITA levy, whereas Durham and Northumberland are not.

(30 Aug 2017, 8:38 pm)Adrian wrote I'm not sure how it works in Northumberland, but POP entitles those in Tyne and Wear to the 60p/£1.10 single/day ticket. But then again T&W is funded via an ITA levy, whereas Durham and Northumberland are not.

Yep. I don't even live in a part of Durham with any sort of discounted pricing, though I've noticed that the price gap between "Durham District" and "Durham County" has closed a lot, lately.

Step 1 of applying for a concessionary pass dealt with, anyhow.

(29 Aug 2017, 9:48 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Unlike bigun, who is a man sized, gruff, smelly 13 year old, littlun is still very obviously under 14. He is very disabled, though, so I definitely need to pursue that particular path. He doesn't get higher rate mobility, but it doesn't take a medical expert to work out that he's not the sort of 11 year old who can hop on a bus alone to visit grandma or meet mates.

The fact that the only option is £5 per day is what's floored me. I can travel anywhere in the NE for £95 per month! Sadly, I can only use one of those tickets at a time on my phone, unless I commandeer bigun's phone for him on school days!

https://www.change.org/p/arriva-cheaper-...=219828756&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish.guest_form_reduction&utm_term=share_petition.guest_form_reduction

I've just seen this on fb.

(01 Sep 2017, 8:12 am)Andreos1 wrote https://www.change.org/p/arriva-cheaper-...=219828756&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish.guest_form_reduction&utm_term=share_petition.guest_form_reduction

I've just seen this on fb.

Littlun is only 11! It's £5 per day!

Good news for BLM.

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/north-east/L...ungpeople/

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

(02 Sep 2017, 6:18 am)Dan wrote Good news for BLM.

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/north-east/L...ungpeople/

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Nice one. Particularly as bigun is 14 in a couple of months (and I've had certain drivers giving me the evil eye for buying him child tickets for a good year, now.)

Mind, once we make that move into Durham, he'll be able to make more use of gne's £1 fares, since the house we're buying is right on several gne routes.

(02 Sep 2017, 5:35 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Nice one. Particularly as bigun is 14 in a couple of months (and I've had certain drivers giving me the evil eye for buying him child tickets for a good year, now.)

Mind, once we make that move into Durham, he'll be able to make more use of gne's £1 fares, since the house we're buying is right on several gne routes.

Hope the move is on soon, even just to save the cash with Bigun's fares!

GNEs ludicrous stage and fare zones continue to baffle me...

Durham to Birtley £4.40
Durham to Newcastle £4.40

That's a 14 mile difference in distance

(02 Sep 2017, 6:56 pm)Ambassador wrote GNEs ludicrous stage and fare zones continue to baffle me...

Durham to Birtley £4.40
Durham to Newcastle £4.40

That's a 14 mile difference in distance

Does the shorter journey serve mainly low car ownership areas?

(02 Sep 2017, 6:56 pm)Ambassador wrote GNEs ludicrous stage and fare zones continue to baffle me...

Durham to Birtley £4.40
Durham to Newcastle £4.40

That's a 14 mile difference in distance

North Lodge to Durham is also £4.40. The fare stage changes at Chester-le-Street Front Street to £3.50, between that point and Durham.

You should count yourself lucky. You could have the wacky and wonderful Washington network to put up with, where it costs twice as much to travel beyond the Galleries from Brady Square, on a Sunday...

(02 Sep 2017, 7:35 pm)Tamesider wrote Does the shorter journey serve mainly low car ownership areas?

No. Low Fell and Birtley have high levels of car ownership, the only thing they have in common is virtual monopolies by GNE aside a half hourly limited stop express service from Arriva.

I used EYMS Service 6 on Thursday from Scarborough North Bay to Rail Station due to heavy rain, an approximate journey of 8 Minutes and it cost 50p for an Adult Single much to my surprise given I had put down £2, in terms of distance I would of said it was like going from Lambton to The Galleries, that's £1.10 difference between two different operators from different areas.

(02 Sep 2017, 9:03 pm)Ambassador wrote No. Low Fell and Birtley have high levels of car ownership, the only thing they have in common is virtual monopolies by GNE aside a half hourly limited stop express service from Arriva.

Here in GM, the highest fares are in low car ownership areas, and/or where there is no competition, which is a double failure of de-reg in terms of captive market economics. Why isn't there more competition in low car ownership (thus high bus use) areas? I suppose there was in the early days of de-reg, with the so-called "David v Goliath" battles - Piranha v Blue Whale would have been more appropriate. Trouble is, this brought low quality but without low cost. Now we have "Two Tribes" (as in FGTH) battles that leaves the rest of their respective territory to rot.

Transdev and Stagecoach Megabus join forces to offer coach equivalent of Plusbus - http://www.route-one.net/articles/Passen..._in_tie_up

Add-on single fares for local bus travel to join Megabus.com coaches at Leeds will be £3 from Ripon, Harrogate or Keighley, or £5 from York, Malton and Yorkshire Coast.

Stagecoach Sunderland Eveningrider looks a good deal priced at £2.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and...eningrider

Impressed with the option