I think its about time we went cashless in North East! Or at least no change!

Opinions?

Cleveland Transit had exact fare buses many years ago, but I dont think it'll happen again. Cashless travel will, it's only a question of when. Personally I think we're a few years off that in our area.

App-based innovations such as ArrivaClick are currently being rolled out across the country, marking the start of cashless travel.

(25 Apr 2018, 6:50 pm)idiot wrote I think its about time we went cashless in North East! Or at least no change!

Opinions?

The argument is relevant everywhere but:

Cashless. Definately not. Not everyone has an iphone and those that do clearly struggle when trying to show them to drivers on my routes. Fortunately, they are in a tiny minority. There are also increasing security issues with both iphones and Contactless cards. I only see these getting worse as cyber crime grows.

No change. Better idea, but only if fares are widely known before boarding and are much simpler and in some cases "rounder" o it is easy to tender the correct amount of notes/coins.

(25 Apr 2018, 8:50 pm)Tamesider wrote The argument is relevant everywhere but:

Cashless. Definately not. Not everyone has an iphone and those that do clearly struggle when trying to show them to drivers on my routes. Fortunately, they are in a tiny minority. There are also increasing security issues with both iphones and Contactless cards. I only see these getting worse as cyber crime grows.

No change. Better idea, but only if fares are widely known before boarding and are much simpler and in some cases "rounder" o it is easy to tender the correct amount of notes/coins.

My experiences of contactless payments have been positive, I actively choose to pay by card on the bus where I can. As I generally buy day tickets between £5-10 and my bus stop is closer than the nearest cash machine this makes the most sense. 

The amount of people that don’t have a smartphone or contactless card, and also do not qualify for a concessionary pass (also contactless) must now be tiny - considering the default for both new cards and phones (above £50) is to have this technology. 

I don’t think the fraud argument is a starter really. This ‘Which?’ article on the subject says contactless fraud accounts for just 1.9% of all credit card fraud - the monetary value of fraud is just increasing at the sameness rate as the overall spend. As the article states, 0.02% of card spending is lost to fraud. By comparison, on a £20k salary that would be £4 per year. I’m certain if I was given £20k in cash I’d loose more than £4 in dropped change, mistaken overspending, lost wallets and the threat of robbery. 


The benefits of cashless are there to be had for both the passenger and the company. London’s not perfect, but their bus system works better for cashless fares


https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/02/bri...ard-fraud/

As I have said previously, public transport needs to be accessible for all.
Whilst handling cash can be expensive and time consuming for operators, I think the clamor to go cash free may have a negative affect on some passengers.

I don't know the exact numbers, but if I remember correctly, there are approx 2m people in the UK who don't have access to a bank account.
There is also a proportion of the population who have a basic bank account, which usually gives access to a basic debit card, similar to the old Visa Electron.
In most cases, it can't be used to make contactless payments.
I witnessed this just the other week on a Northern Rail service. The conductor showed some discretion and let the passengers off with their payment.

As we know, in London, they have the 'universal' and established Oyster card. It is possible to top it up in a range of locations, in a manner of ways.

Until operators in the NE start to adopt a uniform card like Oyster - which can be topped up in a range of methods and is accepted on each operator across the region, then I don't think cash free buses are an option.
There is the PoP card of course, but operators don't tend to push this. They push their own systems.
Nexus seem to have gone quiet on the PAYG PoP card, after the initial launch and fanfare.

So whilst it might be easier for some to pay contactless, there are a fair few who won't be able to access public transport at all, unless vast improvements are made.

(25 Apr 2018, 6:50 pm)idiot wrote I think its about time we went cashless in North East! Or at least no change!

Opinions?

they'd need to get contactless payment working reliably in rural areas, first. Having the right change can also be an issue in rural areas.

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(25 Apr 2018, 7:30 pm)omnicity4659 wrote App-based innovations such as ArrivaClick are currently being rolled out across the country, marking the start of cashless travel.

I assume they require the use of a phone with NFC?

I gave up on the current mobile ticketing app in general when it developed a habit of losing my tickets and needing re-syncing, but that was impossible where the mobile signal was poor.

(26 Apr 2018, 11:46 am)BusLoverMum wrote I assume they require the use of a phone with NFC?

I gave up on the current mobile ticketing app in general when it developed a habit of losing my tickets and needing re-syncing, but that was impossible where the mobile signal was poor.

Don't believe Click requires NFC, as you top up funds and pay for your ticket on your device, as opposed to tapping it onto a reader.

(26 Apr 2018, 3:38 am)James101 wrote My experiences of contactless payments have been positive, I actively choose to pay by card on the bus where I can. As I generally buy day tickets between £5-10 and my bus stop is closer than the nearest cash machine this makes the most sense. 

The amount of people that don’t have a smartphone or contactless card, and also do not qualify for a concessionary pass (also contactless) must now be tiny - considering the default for both new cards and phones (above £50) is to have this technology. 

I don’t think the fraud argument is a starter really. This ‘Which?’ article on the subject says contactless fraud accounts for just 1.9% of all credit card fraud - the monetary value of fraud is just increasing at the sameness rate as the overall spend. As the article states, 0.02% of card spending is lost to fraud. By comparison, on a £20k salary that would be £4 per year. I’m certain if I was given £20k in cash I’d loose more than £4 in dropped change, mistaken overspending, lost wallets and the threat of robbery. 


The benefits of cashless are there to be had for both the passenger and the company. London’s not perfect, but their bus system works better for cashless fares


https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/02/bri...ard-fraud/

I'm not sure the number of people without smartphones is "tiny". I think recent figures suggested 22% of the population didn't have them - and I don't have contactless. I confess, I don't know what you mean about a £50 "default", and also don't forget a concessionary pass does not mean free travel at all times. What about octagenarians who don't understand mobiles, never mind smartphones, but still have to pay to get to a peak hour medical appointment? And that's before we get on to the reliability (or lack of) phone reception, as raised by others.

(27 Apr 2018, 8:41 pm)Tamesider wrote I'm not sure the number of people without smartphones is "tiny". I think recent figures suggested 22% of the population didn't have them - and I don't have contactless. I confess, I don't know what you mean about a £50 "default", and also don't forget a concessionary pass does not mean free travel at all times. What about octagenarians who don't understand mobiles, never mind smartphones, but still have to pay to get to a peak hour medical appointment? And that's before we get on to the reliability (or lack of) phone reception, as raised by others.

Free travel after 930am. Before it's 50p. If the passes could be linked up, you could simply offer a scheme, like the dartford tunnel uses, where it charges to an account and you have up to 24 hours to file a payment (online or by phone). If you don't pay up, your account and thus card becomes de-activated. That's if you can't pay on the spot for contactless or mobile tickets or have a valid pass.

(27 Apr 2018, 10:18 pm)Jamie M wrote Free travel after 930am. Before it's 50p. If the passes could be linked up, you could simply offer a scheme, like the dartford tunnel uses, where it charges to an account and you have up to 24 hours to file a payment (online or by phone). If you don't pay up, your account and thus card becomes de-activated. That's if you can't pay on the spot for contactless or mobile tickets or have a valid pass.

You're still assuming internet access and competency, there.

(28 Apr 2018, 9:22 am)BusLoverMum wrote You're still assuming internet access and competency, there.

I'd imagine the costs to run and administer the scheme, far exceeds the return too.

(28 Apr 2018, 9:38 am)Andreos1 wrote I'd imagine the costs to run and administer the scheme, far exceeds the return too.

I mean the passes are a centralized system that's run out of the government at pure loss.. there's payouts for the passes to the operators without any direct funding from the holders. I don't see how this can be an issue if, in exchange, it makes the system more efficient. I'm sure lots of people using the dartford crossing don't have internet access, and I'm therefore certain you can phone in to resolve the issue. This would only be metaphorically applied between start of play to 9:30am.

(28 Apr 2018, 9:46 am)Jamie M wrote I mean the passes are a centralized system that's run out of the government at pure loss.. there's payouts for the passes to the operators without any direct funding from the holders. I don't see how this can be an issue if, in exchange, it makes the system more efficient. I'm sure lots of people using the dartford crossing don't have internet access, and I'm therefore certain you can phone in to resolve the issue. This would only be metaphorically applied between start of play to 9:30am.

The difference being pure numbers.

The number of people using the Dartford Tunnel over the course of the day will far exceed the number of people using their conc passes before 9.30am. By virtue, overheads at the Dartford Tunnel for administrating the system become a lot more viable. 

Particularly when you take in to account any conc pass holders travelling prior to 9.30am who are going to medical appointments and travel free with an accompanying letter.

Revenue vs costs. 
Are revenues greater than costs? In Dartford Tunnel case, the potential is greater than with the 50p scheme you propose.

If the current conc scheme runs at a pure loss as you suggest, then the 50p scheme only adds to that black hole.

(27 Apr 2018, 8:41 pm)Tamesider wrote I'm not sure the number of people without smartphones is "tiny". I think recent figures suggested 22% of the population didn't have them - and I don't have contactless. I confess, I don't know what you mean about a £50 "default", and also don't forget a concessionary pass does not mean free travel at all times. What about octagenarians who don't understand mobiles, never mind smartphones, but still have to pay to get to a peak hour medical appointment? And that's before we get on to the reliability (or lack of) phone reception, as raised by others.

22% of the population seems like a lot, have you got the source of the data? Unless you specifically request otherwise, your next issued bank card will be contactless and all banks will exchange your current one for a contactless one free of charge. By "£50 default" I mean that pretty much any mobile phone costing £50 or more to buy outright is equipped with the technology to enable contactless payments; as well as all the other beneficial features we won't go into. The proportion of the population not engaging with this technology will continue to decline and progress will march on, for better or worse. 

As for concessionary pass holders who need to pay their fares at peak times, the technology is in place for them to be billed after travel. Their data is already saved on the card, the council could send them a quarterly bill for all their 50p's which they could pay by phone, cheque, carrier pigeon etc. It could even pave the way for the basis of an efficient concessionary contribution system. All conc. fares at all times could then be a flat 50p, up to a maximum fare of £10/week. These fairs would be re-iburshed to operators, in addition to the current statutory reimbursements. A fair contribution which would make so many withdrawn, yet socially essential, bus services viable once again. I don't think a £1 return fair to town would put off vulnerable people from making journeys, but could help keeping their village bus running in the first place.