Does anyone know what depot/type of buses is running the 91 in the emergency timetable. It doesn't track on bustimes.org

I'm seeing reports that Bus companies need a bailout due to this situation. Why do they need money from the Government haven't they got enough already from the extravagant fares?

(01 Apr 2020, 2:41 pm)Big O wrote I'm seeing reports that Bus companies need a bailout due to this situation. Why do they need money from the Government haven't they got enough already from the extravagant fares?

And what fares would those be? 

If you take the big 3 in the North East, they're largely all running a Sunday service with a few peak extras. There are fewer passengers than you'd find even on a Sunday, so you've got reduced income all 7 days of the week. 

Ultimately wages still need paid, fuel still needs used and maintenance still needs carried out. 

Shops, restaurants etc currently have a government paid workforce, little to no maintenance cost and so aren't in as bad of a position. Bus operators have all the usual costs, albeit on a slightly reduced scale (and with furloughed workers), so most will run into financial difficulty.

(01 Apr 2020, 2:41 pm)Big O wrote I'm seeing reports that Bus companies need a bailout due to this situation. Why do they need money from the Government haven't they got enough already from the extravagant fares?

Maybe there should be asking their own investors to put there hand in there own pockets instead of asking the government for hand outs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(01 Apr 2020, 3:20 pm)mb134 wrote And what fares would those be? 

If you take the big 3 in the North East, they're largely all running a Sunday service with a few peak extras. There are fewer passengers than you'd find even on a Sunday, so you've got reduced income all 7 days of the week. 

Ultimately wages still need paid, fuel still needs used and maintenance still needs carried out. 

Shops, restaurants etc currently have a government paid workforce, little to no maintenance cost and so aren't in as bad of a position. Bus operators have all the usual costs, albeit on a slightly reduced scale (and with furloughed workers), so most will run into financial difficulty.

Who cares about GoAhead, Arriva and Stagecoach with First and Transdev. These are large companies who earn millions of pounds a year. If you don't bother to have plans in place to get through times like this then it's your problem and any bailouts should come with a cost and that is the government taking ownership of them.

Don't have sympathy for them they've been milking money for years and providing very little in return. David Brown the CEO of GoAhead just for the record takes £1.269m a year. This isn't a dig at Dan, Martin or anyone who works on the ground but it's just the truth.

The companies who need the real help are the small companies, your Henry Cooper, James Cooper, Dales and District, Weardale etc. companies which are family owned and will be the real casualties of this without any coach work at all and usually the ones who pick up the undesirable work while the big 5 rake in all the profitable routes / desirable contracts.

Storx what you need to think about is bus companies have a massive cost every week, a depot with 300 staff with an average wage of £400 per week before tax is £120,000 per week, £480,000 a month, on top of that there is fuel, vehicle maintenance, utility bills e.t.c. suddenly the income drops by 90% with the same overheads, coach companies can not operate because all hotels have closed so they had no option but to close, all operators need help from the government as local service operators have no option but keep running a service because other key workers need to get to work, now lets just make my example of a company the size of go north east with approximate 3000 employees at £400 a week is £1.2M a week in wages alone or £4.8M a month in wages alone and you wonder where the money goes from those "profitable routes / desirable contracts".

(01 Apr 2020, 5:15 pm)N1cholas wrote Storx what you need to think about is bus companies have a massive cost every week, a depot with 300 staff with an average wage of £400 per week before tax is £120,000 per week, £480,000 a month, on top of that there is fuel, vehicle maintenance, utility bills e.t.c. suddenly the income drops by 90% with the same overheads, coach companies can not operate because all hotels have closed so they had no option but to close, all operators need help from the government as local service operators have no option but keep running a service because other key workers need to get to work, now lets just make my example of a company the size of go north east with approximate 3000 employees at £400 a week is £1.2M a week in wages alone or £4.8M a month in wages alone and you wonder where the money goes from those "profitable routes / desirable contracts".

Dw I did think about that, aren't half the staff on furlong now anyway so the wage bill won't be that high. I just don't think the bus companies should be getting bailed out as they're not small companies and should have plans to be able to overcome stuff like that without anything any consequences ie losing shares etc. Not to mention 3 depots are closed and half the fleet are off the road.

https://www.go-ahead.com/media/press-rel...m-dividend - Btw I did do some research beforehand and 75% of GoAhead's money is contracted anyway and they believe they can get through this unharmed. They're share price is also still £8.00 so there's money which could be raised there.

I just think bailing out isn't the right thing here there's many other industries in similar issues; gardening, event venues, breweries, airlines, hotels etc and you can't start bailing everyone out we don't have an unlimited money tree. It's more the 'bailing out' part I have the issue with, no-one should be getting free money in the millions especially those that we're privitised for that exact reason. If this continues for awhile then the only money that possibly should be given is to the local LA's / Nexus and let them decide what they want running and what they don't and let them share funds out to continue running a limited service etc such as Boxing Day.

(01 Apr 2020, 5:44 pm)Storx wrote Dw I did think about that, aren't half the staff on furlong now anyway so the wage bill won't be that high. I just don't think the bus companies should be getting bailed out as they're not small companies and should have plans to be able to overcome stuff like that without anything any consequences ie losing shares etc. Not to mention 3 depots are closed and half the fleet are off the road.

https://www.go-ahead.com/media/press-rel...m-dividend - Btw I did do some research beforehand and 75% of GoAhead's money is contracted anyway and they believe they can get through this unharmed. They're share price is also still £8.00 so there's money which could be raised there.

I just think bailing out isn't the right thing here there's many other industries in similar issues; gardening, event venues, breweries, airlines, hotels etc and you can't start bailing everyone out we don't have an unlimited money tree. It's more the 'bailing out' part I have the issue with, no-one should be getting free money in the millions especially those that we're privitised for that exact reason. If this continues for awhile then the only money that possibly should be given is to the local LA's / Nexus and let them decide what they want running and what they don't and let them share funds out to continue running a limited service etc such as Boxing Day.

Don't forget all the financial support operators have had with their BSOG, Green Bus Fund, ticketer machines, uplifts and whatever else. 
And that's just the every day stuff! 

If they want to be de-regulated, then they've got to be totally de-regulated and that includes the curtailment of all handouts, grants and subsidies imo.
Bus priority measures? Not a taxpayers problem. 
Emniox conversions? Sort it themselves. 

It really annoys me that operators seemingly never stop with their begging bowl and wide eyed stare of pity, but fought so hard against having that begging bowl taken off them under the QCS scheme.

(01 Apr 2020, 6:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote Don't forget all the financial support operators have had with their BSOG, Green Bus Fund, ticketer machines, uplifts and whatever else. 
And that's just the every day stuff! 

If they want to be de-regulated, then they've got to be totally de-regulated and that includes the curtailment of all handouts, grants and subsidies imo.
Bus priority measures? Not a taxpayers problem. 
Emniox conversions? Sort it themselves. 

It really annoys me that operators seemingly never stop with their begging bowl and wide eyed stare of pity, but fought so hard against having that begging bowl taken off them under the QCS scheme.

But then, arguably, why should other companies be getting government help? Last I checked high street retailers are private businesses, but are mainly now paying their workforce through government money. 

If airlines are getting bailed out, a far more lucrative industry than bus operations, then why shouldn't bus companies expect assistance? After all, right now, bus services are far more essential than flights.

(01 Apr 2020, 6:48 pm)mb134 wrote But then, arguably, why should other companies be getting government help? Last I checked high street retailers are private businesses, but are mainly now paying their workforce through government money. 

If airlines are getting bailed out, a far more lucrative industry than bus operations, then why shouldn't bus companies expect assistance? After all, right now, bus services are far more essential than flights.

The follies of privatisation perhaps? 
National flag carriers which were sold off, are now being brought back in-house in a number of countries. Time for the same thing to happen with BA?

Then you have the likes of Branson and his begging bowl. Covering those salaries would barely make a dent in his personal fortune. 

As for other businesses, I'm aware of more than one who are taking advantage of the furlough scheme. 
They don't need government support or loans to survive, but are doing so because the money is there. Its free money and it's saving them money too.

(01 Apr 2020, 6:48 pm)mb134 wrote But then, arguably, why should other companies be getting government help? Last I checked high street retailers are private businesses, but are mainly now paying their workforce through government money. 

If airlines are getting bailed out, a far more lucrative industry than bus operations, then why shouldn't bus companies expect assistance? After all, right now, bus services are far more essential than flights.

The furlough scheme is the opposite way round it's there to ensure people are getting paid and not having thousands if not millions of people on sick pay at £95 a week or whatever it is or without a job at all. If that happened your guaranteed to have a recession. It's not there for the primary benefit of businesses.

Airlines are getting bought out by the government as a last resort. Branson and go won't want that as he loses it. That's not what the bus companies want. They just want free money and that's the difference.

(01 Apr 2020, 6:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote Don't forget all the financial support operators have had with their BSOG, Green Bus Fund, ticketer machines, uplifts and whatever else. 
And that's just the every day stuff! 

If they want to be de-regulated, then they've got to be totally de-regulated and that includes the curtailment of all handouts, grants and subsidies imo.
Bus priority measures? Not a taxpayers problem. 
Emniox conversions? Sort it themselves. 

It really annoys me that operators seemingly never stop with their begging bowl and wide eyed stare of pity, but fought so hard against having that begging bowl taken off them under the QCS scheme.

But at the moment they aren’t working in a deregulated market, because the government has specifically told everyone not to travel. That’s the big difference that can’t be planned for.


And regarding funding for better emissions, if there was no funding then all the bus companies big and small would just say no, it’s not commercially viable.

(01 Apr 2020, 8:12 pm)Wybus wrote But at the moment they aren’t working in a deregulated market, because the government has specifically told everyone not to travel. That’s the big difference that can’t be planned for.


And regarding funding for better emissions, if there was no funding then all the bus companies big and small would just say no, it’s not commercially viable.

For the last 24 years they have been though. 24 years of taking all those funds in the various guises, but not wanting government (local or central) involvement - or at least keeping it at a minimum.

Surely you can see the hypocrisy in that? Even in these crazy times. 

Companies are taking advantage of the government schemes and others are using the schemes as a way of surviving. 
At what point do bus operators become different to other business, who don't get two lots of help (as the operators want), in addition to all of the other financial support they get under different guises? 

I've already listed several bits of financial support they get already. Add a bit furlough in there and whatever else they fancy/say they need. Why stop there? 
I'm sure the big CEO could forgoe a percentage of his 7 figure salary to help out.

And that includes the airlines. 
Branson owns an island in the Caribbean. I've never been to the Caribbean.
He uses his island as a tax haven so his companies avoid paying tax. I pay my taxes.
He sues the NHS. I rely on the NHS.
He's worth £4bn. I'm overdrawn.
He wants me to help bail him out. 

The operators are doing a cracking job in the circumstances. I will be the first to say that without them, people would be knackered. 
Surely they have to take the rough with the smooth?

74 tracking rather strangely on the app. Currently showing in Corbridge.

(28 Mar 2020, 2:33 pm)Storx wrote Oh I can't disagree with that but a normal fare passenger wouldn't agree. Bench seating, high floor (OAP's and buggies), dark and quite dingey inside really - not to mention they were never refurbished since new. Plus they looked old design wise compared to say something 15 year old now especially since the Enviro and anything Wright haven't really changed their designs massively since about 2002 / 2006.

Shame you can't get buses like them nowadays rather than the crap (in comparison) produced now.

The coach seated Olympians and Scaniss were far more comfortable for ANY passengers than the stuff around today.

Go North East’s unsung bus drivers and support teams praised by fellow key workers

http://newsroom.gonortheast.co.uk/news/g...ers-399060

http://newsroom.gonortheast.co.uk/images...ne-1922133

(02 Apr 2020, 2:44 pm)Cock Robin wrote The coach seated Olympians and Scaniss were far more comfortable for ANY passengers than the stuff around today.

Not for wheelchairs :p The Scania N113's at Blyth urgently needed to be replaced though they pretty grim at the end because of the leaking windows for god knows how long. The smell of damp and actual wet seats if you sat where the window frame was, wasn't pleasant at all and tbh they're replacements weren't bad (VDL's).

The East Lancs Cityzens and European really we're modern buses interior wise for their age though, even more so than some of the stuff that came after (ALX400 in particular).

(02 Apr 2020, 8:54 pm)Storx wrote Not for wheelchairs :p  The Scania N113's at Blyth urgently needed to be replaced though they pretty grim at the end because of the leaking windows for god knows how long. The smell of damp and actual wet seats if you sat where the window frame was, wasn't pleasant at all and tbh they're replacements weren't bad (VDL's).

The East Lancs Cityzens and European really we're modern buses interior wise for their age though, even more so than some of the stuff that came after (ALX400 in particular).

East Lancs bodied? 
The GNE Tridents were similar.
I've had a wet bum once or twice when riding their Omnidekka's in the rain too.

Dont forget the leaking roofs on them

(02 Apr 2020, 9:28 pm)Andreos1 wrote East Lancs bodied? 
The GNE Tridents were similar.
I've had a wet bum once or twice when riding their Omnidekka's in the rain too.

Yeah they were, the East Lancs Cityzens (think that's spelt right). Guessing it was just an East Lancs problem then, never been on the Omnidekka's or I'm guessing the Lolynes you meant there before. The mix of carpet (which was on the side panels) and water wasn't a particular very good combination.

(02 Apr 2020, 9:38 pm)V514DFT wrote Dont forget the leaking roofs on them

Talking about leaks I can remember one of them which used to literally have a stream of water pouring behind one of the panels next the fire exit door. Mind some of the VDL's are having the same issue lately so could be a Blyth thing.

It's amazing that a few of them we're still on the road in 2017 (N385OTY) and one of them is currently SORN (N392OTY) rather than Not Taxed / Scrapped the state they were when they left Arriva in 2009.

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Also on a different subject I'm just curious what's the reason why bus companies are withdrawing / delicencing buses because of Covid 19? Is there some form of cost of having a bus even if you don't use it in terms of a licence that's monthly etc? I always thought it was just a one cost fee type thing.

(02 Apr 2020, 9:55 pm)Storx wrote Yeah they were, the East Lancs Cityzens (think that's spelt right). Guessing it was just an East Lancs problem then, never been on the Omnidekka's or I'm guessing the Lolynes you meant there before. The mix of carpet (which was on the side panels) and water wasn't a particular very good combination.


Talking about leaks I can remember one of them which used to literally have a stream of water pouring behind one of the panels next the fire exit door. Mind some of the VDL's are having the same issue lately so could be a Blyth thing.

It's amazing that a few of them we're still on the road in 2017 (N385OTY) and one of them is currently SORN (N392OTY) rather than Not Taxed / Scrapped the state they were when they left Arriva in 2009.

------------------

Also on a different subject I'm just curious what's the reason why bus companies are withdrawing / delicencing buses because of Covid 19? Is there some form of cost of having a bus even if you don't use it in terms of a licence that's monthly etc? I always thought it was just a one cost fee type thing.

I've been on a few Omnidekkas where I've been dripped on sitting at the front

I believe the idea behind them delicensing buses is that they get a tax refund, which when you consider that they're only running ~30% of them is quite a lot of money

(01 Apr 2020, 3:20 pm)mb134 wrote And what fares would those be? 

If you take the big 3 in the North East, they're largely all running a Sunday service with a few peak extras. There are fewer passengers than you'd find even on a Sunday, so you've got reduced income all 7 days of the week. 

Ultimately wages still need paid, fuel still needs used and maintenance still needs carried out. 

Shops, restaurants etc currently have a government paid workforce, little to no maintenance cost and so aren't in as bad of a position. Bus operators have all the usual costs, albeit on a slightly reduced scale (and with furloughed workers), so most will run into financial difficulty.

If this is an earnest question I'll answer it but if not I won't get into it with you. The fares up here are ridiculously priced up here. Why can't they dip into their deep pockets to pay their way through this situation?

(03 Apr 2020, 12:53 am)Big O wrote If this is an earnest question I'll answer it but if not I won't get into it with you. The fares up here are ridiculously priced up here. Why can't they dip into their deep pockets to pay their way through this situation?

The issue is the fares in London happen to be ridiculously cheap because of a ridiculous amount of subsidies.
You just have to look at GNE's accounts to realise they don't have 'deep pockets' to pay their way through it.

(02 Apr 2020, 9:55 pm)Storx wrote Also on a different subject I'm just curious what's the reason why bus companies are withdrawing / delicencing buses because of Covid 19? Is there some form of cost of having a bus even if you don't use it in terms of a licence that's monthly etc? I always thought it was just a one cost fee type thing.

If the vehicle has been sorn then you do not need to pay road tax.  Also, there will be things like tyres (most bus companies lease their tyres), so a saving there as its based on mileage.  Wifi and Telematics systems also normally carry a monthly charge if the vehicle is in service and then you have the engineering side - vehicles are normally checked every 28 days, so if you are short of staff due to been off with CONVID-19, the vehicle might not be able to get checked.

(03 Apr 2020, 5:44 am)citaro5284 wrote If the vehicle has been sorn then you do not need to pay road tax.  Also, there will be things like tyres (most bus companies lease their tyres), so a saving there as its based on mileage.  Wifi and Telematics systems also normally carry a monthly charge if the vehicle is in service and then you have the engineering side - vehicles are normally checked every 28 days, so if you are short of staff due to been off with CONVID-19, the vehicle might not be able to get checked.

Ah road tax, totally forgot about that. I knew there'd be something I forgot.

I was just thinking on a maintenance point of view surely it would've been better to swap them around say monthly as it's not ideal leaving anything off the road for months on end when they're designed for heavy use but the tax is no doubt high for some of the older stock so makes sense.

(02 Apr 2020, 9:55 pm)Storx wrote Yeah they were, the East Lancs Cityzens (think that's spelt right). Guessing it was just an East Lancs problem then, never been on the Omnidekka's or I'm guessing the Lolynes you meant there before. The mix of carpet (which was on the side panels) and water wasn't a particular very good combination.


Talking about leaks I can remember one of them which used to literally have a stream of water pouring behind one of the panels next the fire exit door. Mind some of the VDL's are having the same issue lately so could be a Blyth thing.

It's amazing that a few of them we're still on the road in 2017 (N385OTY) and one of them is currently SORN (N392OTY) rather than Not Taxed / Scrapped the state they were when they left Arriva in 2009.

------------------

Also on a different subject I'm just curious what's the reason why bus companies are withdrawing / delicencing buses because of Covid 19? Is there some form of cost of having a bus even if you don't use it in terms of a licence that's monthly etc? I always thought it was just a one cost fee type thing.

Possibly an East Lancs thing. 
Trying to think what the Vykings were like and I'm struggling. Maybe the centre door on them helped!
Don't think I ever got a go on one of the Pyoneers.

(03 Apr 2020, 12:53 am)Big O wrote If this is an earnest question I'll answer it but if not I won't get into it with you. The fares up here are ridiculously priced up here. Why can't they dip into their deep pockets to pay their way through this situation?

Usually I'd agree with fares being too high in the NE, but in this instance they aren't getting the fares at all. 

Ultimately buses are still being driven around by drivers on £10+/hour, using fuel and requiring maintenance. The drivers I know have been saying they're carrying around fresh air majority of the time - that simply cannot translate into earning money. 

Generally the deeper the pocket, the larger the mouth they have to feed it with. I'd imagine most of the big groups (bar perhaps First, who I imagine are in an even worse position) have a roughly similar proportional amount of money in reserve - but if this goes on for months then that won't be enough.

(03 Apr 2020, 1:34 am)streetdeckfan wrote The issue is the fares in London happen to be ridiculously cheap because of a ridiculous amount of subsidies.
You just have to look at GNE's accounts to realise they don't have 'deep pockets' to pay their way through it.

Are you uttering what you’ve read on here or do you actually know how the subsidies in London work?

We are continually reviewing the use of each journey that we operate with bus use now at an all time low as the region follows the government's travel advice.

In line with the patterns of use we are now seeing, from Saturday 4 April there will be changes to services 1A, 5, 11, 19, 74, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 309, 310, 683, 684, 921, 923, 937, X1, X20, X84 and X85.

Further changes are planned for services in Gateshead, Sunderland and Chester-le-Street from Saturday 11 April with all existing journeys for key workers maintained. Details for these changes will be announced soon.

https://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_...-04-20.pdf

Details of service levels from 4th April: https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/coronaviru...JQAJs2kuqY



More buses delicensed?, don't blame them, buses are getting emptier by the hour.



Service 5: Every 2 hours

Little Coasters 11 – the service will run every two hours

74 - every 3 hours

indiGo Washington 81, 82 - every 2 hours (combined hourly service on certain sections)

indiGo Washington 83, 84 - every 2 hours (combined hourly service on certain sections)

indiGo Washington 85 and 86 - every 2 hours (combined hourly service on certain sections)

309 and 310 evening frequency - every 2 hours (1 hour combined on certain sections of the route)

683 will be revised to run every two hours

X1 - After 7pm will be every 2 hours

Tynedale Express X84 & X85 - every 2 hours

X20/921/923 – will not run after 3 April as npower will be closed

Service 937 – will not run after 3 April

(03 Apr 2020, 12:53 am)Big O wrote If this is an earnest question I'll answer it but if not I won't get into it with you. The fares up here are ridiculously priced up here. Why can't they dip into their deep pockets to pay their way through this situation?

If they had such deep pockets don't you think staff would have been pushing for a higher wage rise last year? 

Not to mention that the figures have been estimated earlier in this thread of how much the weekly cost is for 100 drivers per depot. With a company that has nearly 3000 staff across GNE and EY, the figure to "pay their way" will be astronomical. 

It's far easier for the London operators to collect their fares and have higher footfall simply because it's all operated under the TfL banner. With the Oyster card you can get on any service no matter which company is operating it. Up here, you have competition - the Coast Road is an obvious example. GNE competing with Arriva on a busy route - someone buying an Arriva weekly ticket can't use it on GNE. You have to have a Network One ticket up here for multi operator.