(03 Jun 2020, 9:01 am)L469 YVK wrote What I meant was that if an X-Lines compliant B9TL vehicle was available,surely it would make more sense to allocate that to Washington to cover the PVR of 14 and then allocate 2x E400MMCs to Consett as spares allowing more flexibility.

Consett will probably retain a few B9s to make up shortfall of new buses. No point sending single B9 to washy.....

(02 Jun 2020, 11:00 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It doesn't make sense to me why they'd choose to keep the older StreetDecks on the X21 and not distribute them around as spares, I get that they're really not that old, but on a route that long would it not make sense to keep it up to date with the most efficient vehicles like they do with the X9/X10?

I have to disagree here, the X21 isn't a flagship route (profit wise) unlike the X9/X10. it just got new buses as the old ones we're knackered. It definitely doesn't deserve new buses again, the fact is can't hold a night service shows that it isn't one of the most profitable services. Plus the X9/X10 is a totally different route to the X21 and they're only getting replacements as they're wrecked from putting a city bus up and down a 70mph road all day. The X30/31/45/46/47 deserve new buses for once and are arguably more important routes than the X21 which have always generally had new buses on especially the Red Kite's but are getting on a bit now.

Personally I'd rather see newer buses on routes which go into city centre's with stop / start technology etc, where pollution really makes a difference and harms people health rather than something in the middle of nowhere.

(03 Jun 2020, 5:43 pm)streetdeckfan wrote  I doubt they'll go through the effort of repainting the Citaros again, especially when they'll probably not be here that much longer. I'd imagine they'll just do what they did with the 49 and just remove the vinyls.
With a couple of the 49s, removing the vinyls removed the paint underneath so you could see the bare metal, I'd imagine even in cases like that they'd just touch it up rather than do a repaint

They're not 10 year old yet. Assuming they're here for 15, they're not even 2/3 through their expected life-span.

(03 Jun 2020, 8:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote They're not 10 year old yet. Assuming they're here for 15, they're not even 2/3 through their expected life-span.

I thought it had already been pretty much confirmed that the Citatos would be leaving in the next year or so, starting with the the ex Bluestars
They're heavy, inefficient, expensive to maintain and can't be upgraded to euro 6

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(03 Jun 2020, 8:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I thought it had already been pretty much confirmed that the Citatos would be leaving in the next year or so, starting with the the ex Bluestars
They're heavy, inefficient, expensive to maintain and can't be upgraded to euro 6

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I wouldn't be expecting plans to be made for any vehicles to leave the fleet other than the Solars which have already gone. Looking at the social distancing, I could easily envisage a scenario where a large number of additional peak services will need to be employed. If that is the case, then most bus operators will need every single vehicle they can get their hands on.

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(03 Jun 2020, 8:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I thought it had already been pretty much confirmed that the Citatos would be leaving in the next year or so, starting with the the ex Bluestars 
They're heavy, inefficient, expensive to maintain and can't be upgraded to euro 6

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That will be the older ones - either acquired or those original to the GNE fleet, which are getting on 13/14 years old or more (06/07 plate).
Not the 10 plate ones I was referring to that work the 9.

(03 Jun 2020, 9:42 pm)Andreos1 wrote That will be the older ones - either acquired or those original to the GNE fleet, which are getting on 13/14 years old or more (06/07 plate).
Not the 10 plate ones I was referring to that work the 9.

They're in the same boat though, same with the 63 plates, they're essentially the same albeit a few years younger. Still can't upgrade them to Euro 6 and they're still expensive to run and maintain.

I personally doubt the 63 plates will see a mid-life refurb either, more likely that they'll get sold off and replaced.

(03 Jun 2020, 9:47 pm)streetdeckfan wrote They're in the same boat though , same with the 63 plates, they're essentially the same albeit a few years younger. Still can't upgrade them to Euro 6 and they're still expensive to run and maintain.

I personally doubt the 63 plates will see a mid-life refurb either, more likely that they'll get sold off and replaced.

How can a vehicle which is 4 years younger than an acquired vehicle, is of a higher spec internally and also more than likely have a higher book value - be 'in the same boat'?
The Yxxx ERG Solars went before the NK54 xxx Solars for a reason and it wasn't just because of the Eminox upgrades.
Ditto the Vxxx ERG MPD's and the NK53 xxx MPD's.

If the Citaros start to go as you say, it will be the older ones and it will be done over a period of time. By the time they get to the 10 plate Mercs, they're going to be hitting the 14/15 year old mark - which means that they're just 2/3 of the way through their working life as it stands. 
The 06/07 ones are more or less at that full-life stage already. 
As for the 63 plate batch, I'd expect them to be coming towards a mid-life refurb and paint-job.

(03 Jun 2020, 10:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote How can a vehicle which is 4 years younger than an acquired vehicle, is of a higher spec internally and also more than likely have a higher book value - be 'in the same boat'?
The Yxxx ERG Solars went before the NK54 xxx Solars for a reason and it wasn't just because of the Eminox upgrades.
Ditto the Vxxx ERG MPD's and the NK53 xxx MPD's.

If the Citaros start to go as you say, it will be the older ones and it will be done over a period of time. By the time they get to the 10 plate Mercs, they're going to be hitting the 14/15 year old mark - which means that they're just 2/3 of the way through their working life as it stands. 
The 06/07 ones are more or less at that full-life stage already. 
As for the 63 plate batch, I'd expect them to be coming towards a mid-life refurb and paint-job.

Because like I said they're still expensive to run, expensive to maintain, and can't be upgraded to Euro 6.

It would make sense for them to cut their losses while they're still worth something, especially with the 63 plates.

(03 Jun 2020, 8:59 pm)L469 YVK wrote The Cobalt & Coast routes will be in a strong position going forward. Arriva will no doubt pull the X6 (most routes & connections available with GNE / Stagecoach) and Stagecoach may even scale back the 1 & 22.

The Coast Road is another story too as Arriva will have to downsize and consolidate to get their fleet quality & standardization under control.

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I'd have to disagree about the X21.Whilst it was initially launched as a supplementary route, usage has grown to an extent now that it could be considered as a major route. Ok in the short term, GNE have had to scale back the frequency as well as the later journeys (X30 & X70 late journeys also affected so not just an X21 problem). I think going forward that if demand returns, perhaps a 20 minute frequency may be suitable with a 20/40 split to W.Auckland.

I'm not too sure on the X21, I used it awhile back before all this and there was approximately 10 people between Newcastle and Framwellgate Moor, it's no wonder the shorts have been scrapped and earlier this year the express part between Durham and Chester-le-street. There's not enough demand for 6 buses an hour plus an approx 15 min train service (which is quicker) between Durham and Newcastle imo. Then an additional 4 buses an hour between Durham and CLS.

It's definitely not short term the frequency changes including the evening journeys to Bishop.

It's a similar story with the 21 really. The further you get into the route away from the Newcastle the quieter in generally gets they're usually pretty much dead by Barley Moor hence why now only 2 buses an hour go past Chester Le Street and now they're going into Arnison to try and promote more people on them.

(03 Jun 2020, 10:25 pm)Storx wrote I'm not too sure on the X21, I used it awhile back before all this and there was approximately 10 people between Newcastle and Framwellgate Moor, it's no wonder the shorts have been scrapped and earlier this year the express part between Durham and Chester-le-street. There's not enough demand for 6 buses an hour plus an approx 15 min train service (which is quicker) between Durham and Newcastle imo. Then an additional 4 buses an hour between Durham and CLS.

It's definitely not short term the frequency changes including the evening journeys to Bishop.

It's a similar story with the 21 really. The further you get into the route away from the Newcastle the quieter in generally gets they're usually pretty much dead by Barley Moor hence why now only 2 buses an hour go past Chester Le Street and now they're going into Arnison to try and promote more people on them.

I 100% disagree with you there. I used to use the X21 pretty much every day, often several times a day and there was always a pretty good load throughout the journey, sure, it gets quiet at times, but it was very unusual to only have 10 passengers on board

During the peaks, the X21 and 21s were pretty much always full by the time they leave Gateshead, which was particularly annoying for people like me who travel all the way to Bishop, so I ended up just getting the X30 to Stanley then the 16 to Durham, and catch the X21 from there once everyone has got off.

The train ride is also way more expensive, and very inconvenient due to the literal mountain you have to climb to get to Durham train station

(03 Jun 2020, 10:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Because like I said they're still expensive to run, expensive to maintain, and can't be upgraded to Euro 6.

It would make sense for them to cut their losses while they're still worth something, especially with the 63 plates.

I remember my days at Arriva London, witnessing our B9s which are 61 plates being converted to Euro6. The B9 will retain its book value regardless of how expensive it can be to run because they're so robust and very reliable. There was a time when nearly every new  Go-Ahead London bus was a B9TL. It's sad to see it not in production anymore but I can't see them getting rid of any B9 before the Omnidekkas depart. Especially the Cobalt and Coast which if I'm not wrong are high-spec.

(03 Jun 2020, 10:49 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I 100% disagree with you there. I used to use the X21 pretty much every day, often several times a day and there was always a pretty good load throughout the journey, sure, it gets quiet at times, but it was very unusual to only have 10 passengers on board

During the peaks, the X21 and 21s were pretty much always full by the time they leave Gateshead, which was particularly annoying for people like me who travel all the way to Bishop, so I ended up just getting the X30 to Stanley then the 16 to Durham, and catch the X21 from there once everyone has got off.

The train ride is also way more expensive, and very inconvenient due to the literal mountain you have to climb to get to Durham train station

Just noticed I worded that bad, that was about the short X21's there not the extended runs through to Bishop. It was in reply to the suggestion for them becoming more frequent.

Tbf though it's only extra £200 a year or so to use the train, which takes 15 mins vs 50 mins for the bus. I'd personally happily walk up the hill (you could even cycle, which is handy at both sides) to save an hour sitting on buses which could easily be delayed (less likely on a train) but everyone has there own opinion I suppose and I know it's a popular route as they removed the barriers at Durham because the majority of people come from Newcastle where they'd have their tickets checked to stop the congestion in Durham station.

(03 Jun 2020, 11:00 pm)Big O wrote I remember my days at Arriva London, witnessing our B9s which are 61 plates being converted to Euro6. The B9 will retain its book value regardless of how expensive it can be to run because they're so robust and very reliable. There was a time when nearly every new  Go-Ahead London bus was a B9TL. It's sad to see it not in production anymore but I can't see them getting rid of any B9 before the Omnidekkas depart. Especially the Cobalt and Coast which if I'm not wrong are high-spec.

The same can't be said about the Citaros though, I think we're well overdue another fire!

I must admit, I do still like a ride on a B9 every now and then, but I find them a bit cramped upstairs, especially the refurbed Cobalt ones, but upstairs is still the place to be as the engine is a bit too loud downstairs,
If they did the StreetDeck/Stealth Gemini 3 body on a B9, I think that would be perfect!

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(03 Jun 2020, 11:11 pm)Storx wrote Just noticed I worded that bad, that was about the short X21's there not the extended runs through to Bishop. It was in reply to the suggestion for them becoming more frequent.

Tbf though it's only extra £200 a year or so to use the train, which takes 15 mins vs 50 mins for the bus. I'd personally happily walk up the hill to save an hour sitting on buses which could easily be delayed (less likely on a train) but everyone has there own opinion I suppose and I know it's a popular route as they removed the barriers at Durham because the majority of people come from Newcastle where they'd have their tickets checked to stop the congestion in Durham station.

During peak times, the extra X21s between Durham and Newcastle are definitely needed, but I do agree that during off peak times they're not really needed.

(03 Jun 2020, 11:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The same can't be said about the Citaros though, I think we're well overdue another fire!

I must admit, I do still like a ride on a B9 every now and then, but I find them a bit cramped upstairs, especially the refurbed Cobalt ones, but upstairs is still the place to be as the engine is a bit too loud downstairs,
If they did the StreetDeck/Stealth Gemini 3 body on a B9, I think that would be perfect!

The use of Citaros around Europe suggests that they are indeed quite reliable. There's a place for heavyweight single deckers and operators on the continent understand this - many if not all are still ordering Citaros or Volvos. If you take an interurban route, for sake of argument let's say the X84/85, a Volvo product or a Citaro would run rings around something like a Streetlite. 

On the second point - not sure how anyone can find the Gemini 2 interior more cramped than a Gemini 3. The depth of the upstairs windows alone makes the saloon less spacious.

(04 Jun 2020, 2:18 am)mb134 wrote The use of Citaros around Europe suggests that they are indeed quite reliable. There's a place for heavyweight single deckers and operators on the continent understand this - many if not all are still ordering Citaros or Volvos. If you take an interurban route, for sake of argument let's say the X84/85, a Volvo product or a Citaro would run rings around something like a Streetlite. 

On the second point - not sure how anyone can find the Gemini 2 interior more cramped than a Gemini 3. The depth of the upstairs windows alone makes the saloon less spacious.

I'm not denying that, but GNE don't really have any single decker routes that would benefit from heavyweight vehicles, with the exception of X84/X85, the routes the Citaros are allocated to now could easily be run with E200s or Streetlites. And from what I've heard, the E200s did pretty well when they were running on the X9/X10, whether or not they'd last is another question though.

I much prefer the height of the windows, it's the perfect height to rest your arm. I don't know whether it's the interior design of them, but the Streetdecks definitely feel more 'airy' upstairs

(03 Jun 2020, 10:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Because like I said they're still expensive to run, expensive to maintain, and can't be upgraded to Euro 6.

It would make sense for them to cut their losses while they're still worth something, especially with the 63 plates.

So instead of solely finding and funding replacements for the 06/07 Mercs, now you're saying they need to sell the 63 plate versions and fund replacements for them as well?! 

If they're as bad as you're making out, those 63 plates aren't going to be worth much at all.

(04 Jun 2020, 2:30 am)streetdeckfan wrote I'm not denying that, but GNE don't really have any single decker routes that would benefit from heavyweight vehicles, with the exception of X84/X85, the routes the Citaros are allocated to now could easily be run with E200s or Streetlites. And from what I've heard, the E200s did pretty well when they were running on the X9/X10, whether or not they'd last is another question though.

I much prefer the height of the windows, it's the perfect height to rest your arm. I don't know whether it's the interior design of them, but the Streetdecks definitely feel more 'airy' upstairs

Surely if we're going down this route then the Omnicity's are a much higher priority. They're actually getting old, have the same issues with fuel economy and also have the added issue of spare parts getting harder to get. The Citaro's would be an ideal like for like replacement for them on the 50 etc.

Aren’t some of the older omnicities down for withdrawals aswell as cant can’t be upgraded?,

If the UK doesn’t adopt/inherit the euro 4/5/6 fiasco, then buses be able to stay on the roads a lot longer, and built reliable and stronger that was used to before the UK joined the EU


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(04 Jun 2020, 8:28 am)Storx wrote Surely if we're going down this route then the Omnicity's are a much higher priority. They're actually getting old, have the same issues with fuel economy and also have the added issue of spare parts getting harder to get. The Citaro's would be an ideal like for like replacement for them on the 50 etc.

Citaros wont go on the 50 as ST Council have funded upgrade to euro 6

(03 Jun 2020, 11:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The same can't be said about the Citaros though, I think we're well overdue another fire!

I must admit, I do still like a ride on a B9 every now and then, but I find them a bit cramped upstairs, especially the refurbed Cobalt ones, but upstairs is still the place to be as the engine is a bit too loud downstairs,
If they did the StreetDeck/Stealth Gemini 3 body on a B9, I think that would be perfect!

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During peak times, the extra X21s between Durham and Newcastle are definitely needed, but I do agree that during off peak times they're not really needed.

I've always thought this, the B9 would be perfect with a Gemini 3 body mounted to it. Despite its build quality flaws, I still think the Gemini 3 is the best Euro 6 body you can get. It feels very premium, unlike the plastic feeling MMC. The Cobalt's probably feel cramped due to the pitch of the seats maybe. 

I've seen it mooted that Daimler and Wright may not be continuing to work together but rather the Integrals will be with Cummins units, I'm not sure how true this is but if it is, I'll be looking forward to this. The DB300 was a great bus. Sturdy, reliable and good on the diesel.

(04 Jun 2020, 10:46 am)Big O wrote I've always thought this, the B9 would be perfect with a Gemini 3 body mounted to it. Despite its build quality flaws, I still think the Gemini 3 is the best Euro 6 body you can get. It feels very premium, unlike the plastic feeling MMC. The Cobalt's probably feel cramped due to the pitch of the seats maybe. 

I've seen it mooted that Daimler and Wright may not be continuing to work together but rather the Integrals will be with Cummins units, I'm not sure how true this is but if it is, I'll be looking forward to this. The DB300 was a great bus. Sturdy, reliable and good on the diesel.

A Cummins engine in the streetdeck would be ideal if they offered the 250bhp option with a ZF gearbox.

I do think that ADL have upped their game lately though.

(04 Jun 2020, 8:46 am)JP6004 wrote Citaros wont go on the 50 as ST Council have funded upgrade to euro 6

It will be interesting to see what terms have been agreed with those mods and if they're any different to previous LA funding. Have lessons been learned perhaps? 

Either way, quotes from the fleet list following their repaint last year along with the euro6 mods would indicate to me that they've got a few years left in them.

(04 Jun 2020, 11:29 am)Andreos1 wrote It will be interesting to see what terms have been agreed with those mods and if they're any different to previous LA funding. Have lessons been learned perhaps? 

Either way, quotes from the fleet list following their repaint last year along with the euro6 mods would indicate to me that they've got a few years left in them.

Think they are able to be replaced with new vehicles, unlike the L94 that couldn't be replaced until contract expired

(04 Jun 2020, 11:29 am)Andreos1 wrote It will be interesting to see what terms have been agreed with those mods and if they're any different to previous LA funding. Have lessons been learned perhaps? 

Either way, quotes from the fleet list following their repaint last year along with the euro6 mods would indicate to me that they've got a few years left in them.

I'm around 80% sure that it was said, the Omnicities could move elsewhere but only if the Omnicities was replaced with Euro 6 buses.. but not sure if that's after a certain amount of time (such as a year).


Some of the Versa's have also had the upgrade (see attachment), plus you have the Red Arrow, Tyne Valley Ten, FAB 56, Cobalt & Coast, ToonLink (B9's), 6155-6161, with the Euro 6 upgrades


I'm not sure if anything else was down for the upgrades?

(04 Jun 2020, 10:46 am)Big O wrote I've always thought this, the B9 would be perfect with a Gemini 3 body mounted to it. Despite its build quality flaws, I still think the Gemini 3 is the best Euro 6 body you can get. It feels very premium, unlike the plastic feeling MMC. The Cobalt's probably feel cramped due to the pitch of the seats maybe. 

I've seen it mooted that Daimler and Wright may not be continuing to work together but rather the Integrals will be with Cummins units, I'm not sure how true this is but if it is, I'll be looking forward to this. The DB300 was a great bus. Sturdy, reliable and good on the diesel.

Yeah, the E400s and even the E200s just feel very cheap with their glossy plastic trim, it already looks a complete mess and they're only a few months old. That along with the awful (from a passengers experience) quick release windows just makes them sound and feel like they're about to fall to bits.

Whereas the interior of the StreetDecks (and the B5s) feel solid, even if they're not necessarily screwed together properly!

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(04 Jun 2020, 12:31 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yeah, the E400s and even the E200s just feel very cheap with their glossy plastic trim, it already looks a complete mess and they're only a few months old. That along with the awful (from a passengers experience) quick release windows just makes them sound and feel like they're about to fall to bits.

Whereas the interior of the StreetDecks (and the B5s) feel solid, even if they're not necessarily screwed together properly!

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Have to agree with you there, never liked Dennis products and the MMC range is just as bad as anything they've built. Still rattly, still poor ride quality and the glossy plastic trim looks terrible.  The Wrightbus situation is a sad one, but shows how much poor management can lead to lower staff morale and poor results ultimately.  Despite this, Gemini 3 is regarded as a proper product and admired by many operators. I don't think the B5 is that great a product and it shows how lessening the power of heavy-duty vehicles just leads to a false economy. Afaik Transdev ordered OM936 Streetdecks but had to cancel the order due to Wrightbus' shenanigans.  

All the Gemini 3 needs a Cummins output and some better screws and its good to go. I believe Wright won't be working with Volvo again, last I heard, a large sum was owed and Volvo is now only working with MCV for their double-deck products.

(04 Jun 2020, 4:14 pm)Big O wrote Have to agree with you there, never liked Dennis products and the MMC range is just as bad as anything they've built. Still rattly, still poor ride quality and the glossy plastic trim looks terrible.  The Wrightbus situation is a sad one, but shows how much poor management can lead to lower staff morale and poor results ultimately.  Despite this, Gemini 3 is regarded as a proper product and admired by many operators. I don't think the B5 is that great a product and it shows how lessening the power of heavy-duty vehicles just leads to a false economy. Afaik Transdev ordered OM936 Streetdecks but had to cancel the order due to Wrightbus' shenanigans.  

All the Gemini 3 needs a Cummins output and some better screws and its good to go. I believe Wright won't be working with Volvo again, last I heard, a large sum was owed and Volvo is now only working with MCV for their double-deck products.

The 67 plate StreetDecks are 10x better than the 16 plate ones, so I'm hoping the new ones will be alright.
To be fair though, GNE's ADLs are so much better than any other I've been on, so maybe they're on the up as well

The Go North East streetdeck has landed in Oxford.

We also currently have an unregistered Go North East StreetDeck at Oxford for inspection. We may get some diverted to us from the GNE order of 31.

https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co....50620.html - scroll down to the Oxford section.

(14 Jun 2020, 12:16 pm)Michael wrote The Go North East streetdeck has landed in Oxford.

We also currently have an unregistered Go North East StreetDeck at Oxford for inspection. We may get some diverted to us from the GNE order of 31.

https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co....50620.html - scroll down to the Oxford section.

Hopefully a temporary diversion due things go back to normal in order to aid social distancing until Oxford Bus Company can get further new vehicles themselves.