(22 May 2021, 9:25 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote You use Arriva services even though you work for Go North East?

Yes...?


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(22 May 2021, 9:29 pm)Dan wrote Yes...?


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Wow. I never knew that. Go North East is my favourite operator, and now I only use them (not that I travel much just now). A-line and Henry Cooper seem good, but I haven't used them yet. Stanley Travel and Phoenix Coaches have been good in my limited experience with them. GCT has been mixed, but more bad than good. Haven't used Arriva since about 2005, and no longer use Stagecoach (last used them in September I believe).

Consider myself loyal to Go North East, but happy to use selected others in different circumstances.

(22 May 2021, 6:13 pm)Jimmi wrote OK1 went in summertime 2013, X66 didn't go MAX until December 2014 with the X67 being introduced in October 2015.

Do agree about the competition forcing Arriva to act accordingly, to some extents I wish the same could happen again in some instances to hopefully improve Arriva's offering. On the flip side of the coin, GNE seem to lose out on some corridors against Arriva such as Hartlepool with the 55 being curtailed at Peterlee although on the plus side at least, having the 55 run hourly looping via Station Town & Hutton Henry is better than the previous 206 running on a rather sporadic timetable.

(22 May 2021, 7:10 pm)Storx wrote I know what your trying to do here but it won't work like that all. We'll have the North Tyneside / SE Northumberland bus wars all over again. Personally if I was Arriva and GNE attempted to try and attack me in my territory then my first point of call would be to be to go for their corridors again, Peterlee would be my first target especially now the X6/X7 is down to hourly then I'd be looking at taking on the 20 and 21 with services extended to Sunderland from Brandon or buses via Leamside, Great Lumley and Gilesgate direct to Newcastle or whatever. GNE's network isn't all that great North of Durham either unless you happen to live on the 21/X21 corridor.

Oops got my dates mixed up with the X66/67 there, thought it was around the same time! But my point still stands about the OK1/X1 and I agree, I'd like to see some competition from GNE primarily cause it might make Arriva step their game up more than anything else! But agreed GNE have lost out previously in cases such as the OK1, the X7 to Middlesbrough, and the 55 to Hartlepool! 

I don't think we would see the same extent of the Northumberland bus wars in County Durham. Firstly given the previous examples mentioned above, I don't think GNE would take the commercial risk of trying to compete across multiple routes. In turn, like L469 YVK said, I don't think Arriva are in much of a position to respond at present if GNE did decide to go all out - they certainly don't seem to have a vast availability of extra drivers and vehicles. There again, my point is that if the threat was there, I think ANE could make route and vehicle improvements happen - but they won't improve things cause why would they when passengers have no other alternative - they have to use Arriva in what ever state the service is running atm - older buses and limited frequencies. 

As for the examples you mention, it seems clear GNE have already lost out as far as the X6 is concerned but if Arriva reintroduced the X21 would that be such a bad thing? Say Arriva introduced an express Durham to Sunderland service to compete with the 20/X20, it would be interesting to see who would come out trumps there with Arriva having the better network in Durham, but with GNE having the better network in Sunderland. And given the state of the X12, I can't see Arriva winning in the race to Newcastle.

But if past examples are anything to go by, say the 21 were eventually extended to Brandon, I'm sure the only response by Arriva would be on the relevant route, so I could imagine 49/49A would be extended to the Arnison Centre to compete. GNE would, judging by past examples, lose out and withdraw their extension. But there's a good chance that the 49/49A extension would remain, which would be an improvement for passengers. I'm not suggesting we want an all out war, but I think a little competition on one of ANE's routes would result in benefits in the long-run! The only real loser is GNE, but it's entirely possible that ANE genuinely might not be in a position to respond these days and GNE might finally come out on top, especially with an extension on such a prominent service such as the 21! If the X21 is competing well with the 6 by offering that extra stretch from Durham to Newcastle then perhaps the 21 would do too!

(22 May 2021, 9:57 pm)peter wrote Oops got my dates mixed up with the X66/67 there, thought it was around the same time! But my point still stands about the OK1/X1 and I agree, I'd like to see some competition from GNE primarily cause it might make Arriva step their game up more than anything else! But agreed GNE have lost out previously in cases such as the OK1, the X7 to Middlesbrough, and the 55 to Hartlepool! 

I don't think we would see the same extent of the Northumberland bus wars in County Durham. Firstly given the previous examples mentioned above, I don't think GNE would take the commercial risk of trying to compete across multiple routes. In turn, like L469 YVK said, I don't think Arriva are in much of a position to respond at present if GNE did decide to go all out - they certainly don't seem to have a vast availability of extra drivers and vehicles. There again, my point is that if the threat was there, I think ANE could make route and vehicle improvements happen - but they won't improve things cause why would they when passengers have no other alternative - they have to use Arriva in what ever state the service is running atm - older buses and limited frequencies. 

As for the examples you mention, it seems clear GNE have already lost out as far as the X6 is concerned but if Arriva reintroduced the X21 would that be such a bad thing? Say Arriva introduced an express Durham to Sunderland service to compete with the 20/X20, it would be interesting to see who would come out trumps there with Arriva having the better network in Durham, but with GNE having the better network in Sunderland. And given the state of the X12, I can't see Arriva winning in the race to Newcastle.

But if past examples are anything to go by, say the 21 were eventually extended to Brandon, I'm sure the only response by Arriva would be on the relevant route, so I could imagine 49/49A would be extended to the Arnison Centre to compete. GNE would, judging by past examples, lose out and withdraw their extension. But there's a good chance that the 49/49A extension would remain, which would be an improvement for passengers. I'm not suggesting we want an all out war, but I think a little competition on one of ANE's routes would result in benefits in the long-run! The only real loser is GNE, but it's entirely possible that ANE genuinely might not be in a position to respond these days and GNE might finally come out on top, especially with an extension on such a prominent service such as the 21! If the X21 is competing well with the 6 by offering that extra stretch from Durham to Newcastle then perhaps the 21 would do too!

The thing is though when you start to compete on the busy principal routes other passengers get hit hard instead. For example the 21 might make £60k a day in revenue which is 60% of the revenue for CLS depot and you need £70k a day to keep the depot running. If Arriva come along and some how take some of your fares plus price reductions to competing resulting in a 50% drop in revenue leaving you with £30k, GNE is only left with £30k of the 21 money. With the other 40% money you've only now not making a profit at CLS because your principal route has lost all it's money but without the other routes then the 21 wouldn't make money either because of connections and value of money.

You're now stuck in a bit of a sticky position where you've some grim options:

• Do nothing and make no profit (pointless).
  
• Cut the 21 but you're likely to lose even more lose money on the 21.
  
• Cut marginal services to get costs down but be at risk of losing money on the 21 and the reputational damage of leaving places with no buses at all where Arriva have no interest in ever running to
  
• Increase other routes fares to compensate for the loss of the 21.
  
• Attack Arriva and gain money from somewhere else.
  

It's a massive risk and none of them are good for the customer or GNE / Arriva, we're already seeing signs of number 2 and 3 in North Tyneside with the Coast Road competition and Little Coaster network and Peterlee with the X6/X7 and with the SE Northumberland and earlier Darlington bus wars the bottom approach was definitely used.

I know you mentioned Brandon but they won't be the customers who'll be affected it'll be the passengers on the further afield services like the 56 / 57 etc which are infrequent enough as it is or there'll be further cuts on evening services leaving villages without a lifeline on routes that GNE will never have an interest in operating. For the 21 example, that'll be the 25 and 28 services getting the chop.

(22 May 2021, 11:17 pm)Storx wrote The thing is though when you start to compete on the busy principal routes other passengers get hit hard instead. For example the 21 might make £60k a day in revenue which is 60% of the revenue for CLS depot and you need £70k a day to keep the depot running. If Arriva come along and some how take some of your fares plus price reductions to competing resulting in a 50% drop in revenue leaving you with £30k, GNE is only left with £30k of the 21 money. With the other 40% money you've only now not making a profit at CLS because your principal route has lost all it's money but without the other routes then the 21 wouldn't make money either because of connections and value of money.

You're now stuck in a bit of a sticky position where you've some grim options:

• Do nothing and make no profit (pointless).
  
• Cut the 21 but you're likely to lose even more lose money on the 21.
  
• Cut marginal services to get costs down but be at risk of losing money on the 21 and the reputational damage of leaving places with no buses at all where Arriva have no interest in ever running to
  
• Increase other routes fares to compensate for the loss of the 21.
  
• Attack Arriva and gain money from somewhere else.
  

It's a massive risk and none of them are good for the customer or GNE / Arriva, we're already seeing signs of number 2 and 3 in North Tyneside with the Coast Road competition and Little Coaster network and Peterlee with the X6/X7 and with the SE Northumberland and earlier Darlington bus wars the bottom approach was definitely used.

I know you mentioned Brandon but they won't be the customers who'll be affected it'll be the passengers on the further afield services like the 56 / 57 etc which are infrequent enough as it is or there'll be further cuts on evening services leaving villages without a lifeline on routes that GNE will never have an interest in operating. For the 21 example, that'll be the 25 and 28 services getting the chop.

The thing is though there are certain routes that ANE and GNE are never going to win a competition on because they are too much of a stronghold. There's no likelihood of Arriva taking enough money from the 21 because they're not dominant enough in that area. 9 times out of 10 when GNE have encroached in Arriva land they have lost and when Arriva have encroached in GNE land they've lost. Because it's those less frequent local routes that help to win the battle. ANE are never gonna win in Chester-le-Street because they have no other services there. GNE are never going to win in Darlington because they have no other services there. But if Arriva were to operate extra services from Durham to Chester-le-Street you can bet your bottom dollar GNE would re-increase the 21 to every 15 minutes between Durham and Chester-le-Street till Arriva's service eventually fails - because they don't have that end network!

Durham is an interesting case because while Arriva is dominant, GNE does have enough of a presence for it to work. That extension into Brandon, might have seen a bit of healthy competition, because both are frequent/prominent enough to survive. Would it result in either the 21 or 49/49a being withdrawn or reduced and other local services being withdrawn, it's highly unlikely because these are popular enough and the demand to support it is there. Two extra buses to Brandon isn't going to make the 49/49a unprofitable. Would the GNE extension to Brandon survive, perhaps if the Newcastle demand is there (as with the X21). GNE extending the X21 through to West Auckland hasn't caused Arriva's 6 to get withdrawn or any other Bishop Auckland or Durham services as a result. In this case both services are still running because the demand to support those two extra X21's alongside the 6 must be there! In fact in this example ANE haven't really bothered to respond, they've just decided to co-exist. Do I think the X21 extension will last forever, probably not, because Arriva are fundamentally dominant in the area, but it provides an alternative to passengers and ultimately more services. I do agree that East Durham is a dicey one because despite GNE's local network, they've not found success with the connective services. Having said that, despite GNE losing out as far as the X6/7 and 55 are concerned, has it resulted in the Peterlee local services being withdrawn, no it hasn't - in fact they're getting a rebrand which suggests the success of other remaining services (the X9/10) is enough to support them. 

While I can see your point about the Coast Road, the issue there I feel is that both operators are in a stalemate, with too many buses going along there to support it - the point with those is that you have two high frequency services competing and not enough passengers. A low frequency service wriggling in on a high frequency service is a different kettle of fish. Ultimately, a twice hourly extension of the 21 to Brandon would hardly bring down Chester-le-Street depot, otherwise GNE would have never even contemplated it.

Overall, I don't see Arriva being that willing to put up a fight these days. As I said they haven't put newer buses or increased frequency on the 6 in response to the X21, they didn't bring back their own X21 in response to the X6/7, they haven't attempted a quicker service to Sunderland - probably because the demand just isn't there on top of their existing and the GNE services. I think they seem to be in an era of keeping things just as they are (excluding COVID frequency reductions).

You bring up the X12 competing with the 21/X21, I do wonder how GNE's changes to the 21 has affected things, first halving the frequency for people in Birtley wanting to travel beyond CLS and then sending it via the Arnison Centre adding around 5 minutes into the journey time because of the awkward way it has to go into the Arnison Centre (well, that's when they haven't pulled it from serving the stop outside Sainsbury's that is, happened again today with the 21/X20).

That's one thing that concerns me with the Brandon extension, whenever the service is delayed I can envision them dropping passengers off in Brandon then run NIS up to CLS to re-start the service, have noticed X21 do that a few times in West Auckland due to delays, drop off to West Auckland then run light to Bishop Auckland Bus Station to get back onto schedule.

(23 May 2021, 12:30 am)Jimmi wrote You bring up the X12 competing with the 21/X21, I do wonder how GNE's changes to the 21 has affected things, first halving the frequency for people in Birtley wanting to travel beyond CLS and then sending it via the Arnison Centre adding around 5 minutes into the journey time because of the awkward way it has to go into the Arnison Centre (well, that's when they haven't pulled it from serving the stop outside Sainsbury's that is, happened again today with the 21/X20).

That's one thing that concerns me with the Brandon extension, whenever the service is delayed I can envision them dropping passengers off in Brandon then run NIS up to CLS to re-start the service, have noticed X21 do that a few times in West Auckland due to delays, drop off to West Auckland then run light to Bishop Auckland Bus Station to get back onto schedule.

I saw it mentioned on here the other day that the northern section still carries nowt but fresh air. I suppose if you're primarily a GNE user and have to come in from somewhere else on a GNE bus and connect to the 21, you're probs gonna stick with the GNE service even if it is less frequent because of cheaper through ticketing - theoretically 4x21's to Durham half full, becomes 2x21's to Durham that are full!

Oh yeah, I'm not saying a Brandon extension or any other competition is perfect, but it would be an alternative service or a new link from a passengers point of view and from an enthusiasts point of view it would be something a bit different lol.

(23 May 2021, 12:12 am)peter wrote The thing is though there are certain routes that ANE and GNE are never going to win a competition on because they are too much of a stronghold. There's no likelihood of Arriva taking enough money from the 21 because they're not dominant enough in that area. 9 times out of 10 when GNE have encroached in Arriva land they have lost and when Arriva have encroached in GNE land they've lost. Because it's those less frequent local routes that help to win the battle. ANE are never gonna win in Chester-le-Street because they have no other services there. GNE are never going to win in Darlington because they have no other services there. But if Arriva were to operate extra services from Durham to Chester-le-Street you can bet your bottom dollar GNE would re-increase the 21 to every 15 minutes between Durham and Chester-le-Street till Arriva's service eventually fails - because they don't have that end network!

Durham is an interesting case because while Arriva is dominant, GNE does have enough of a presence for it to work. That extension into Brandon, might have seen a bit of healthy competition, because both are frequent/prominent enough to survive. Would it result in either the 21 or 49/49a being withdrawn or reduced and other local services being withdrawn, it's highly unlikely because these are popular enough and the demand to support it is there. Two extra buses to Brandon isn't going to make the 49/49a unprofitable. Would the GNE extension to Brandon survive, perhaps if the Newcastle demand is there (as with the X21). GNE extending the X21 through to West Auckland hasn't caused Arriva's 6 to get withdrawn or any other Bishop Auckland or Durham services as a result. In this case both services are still running because the demand to support those two extra X21's alongside the 6 must be there! In fact in this example ANE haven't really bothered to respond, they've just decided to co-exist. Do I think the X21 extension will last forever, probably not, because Arriva are fundamentally dominant in the area, but it provides an alternative to passengers and ultimately more services. I do agree that East Durham is a dicey one because despite GNE's local network, they've not found success with the connective services. Having said that, despite GNE losing out as far as the X6/7 and 55 are concerned, has it resulted in the Peterlee local services being withdrawn, no it hasn't - in fact they're getting a rebrand which suggests the success of other remaining services (the X9/10) is enough to support them. 

While I can see your point about the Coast Road, the issue there I feel is that both operators are in a stalemate, with too many buses going along there to support it - the point with those is that you have two high frequency services competing and not enough passengers. A low frequency service wriggling in on a high frequency service is a different kettle of fish. Ultimately, a twice hourly extension of the 21 to Brandon would hardly bring down Chester-le-Street depot, otherwise GNE would have never even contemplated it.

Overall, I don't see Arriva being that willing to put up a fight these days. As I said they haven't put newer buses or increased frequency on the 6 in response to the X21, they didn't bring back their own X21 in response to the X6/7, they haven't attempted a quicker service to Sunderland - probably because the demand just isn't there on top of their existing and the GNE services. I think they seem to be in an era of keeping things just as they are (excluding COVID frequency reductions).

As much as I don't disagree with what your saying I just don't think going into principal areas is a good way of operating (mind the 6 is down to every 15 minutes used to be every 12 minutes). Personally if GNE expanded in Durham area I'd rather they focused on servicing places that don't have a bus service. I don't know Durham too well but there's plenty of new housing estates popping up all over the place and at half of them most operators are just sleep walking leaving large places without a bus service at all. Birtley is really bad for that in the top end where the massive new estates are being built.

That said though in Durham, I still find it absolutely ridiculous that there's been a brand new Amazon distribution centre at Tursdale with employs workers in their thousands on generally low wages doesn't have a single bus operating to it. That's the sort of places that operators should be focused on and is the place if I was going to extend some services that I'd be looking at.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Durham/5...49!1m0!3e0 - Stuff like that is areas that GNE should be looking at if they want to expand and giving people services which don't exist rather than competing on stuff that does exist. Stagecoach's 1 and 22 extensions we're good extensions imo as they gave direct links for many people to Cobalt which didn't have them beforehand even known it affected GNE's services badly but at least there's a purpose to it.

The 21 extension to Brandon is just mindless competition unless there's some contract for Durham Uni and doesn't bring anything new for passengers. The X21 extension wasn't really an extension and more a replacement for the short Bishop service which left the other side of the route without a bus (could be argued it was negative).

(23 May 2021, 7:49 am)Storx wrote As much as I don't disagree with what your saying I just don't think going into principal areas is a good way of operating (mind the 6 is down to every 15 minutes used to be every 12 minutes). Personally if GNE expanded in Durham area I'd rather they focused on servicing places that don't have a bus service. I don't know Durham too well but there's plenty of new housing estates popping up all over the place and at half of them most operators are just sleep walking leaving large places without a bus service at all. Birtley is really bad for that in the top end where the massive new estates are being built.

That said though in Durham, I still find it absolutely ridiculous that there's been a brand new Amazon distribution centre at Tursdale with employs workers in their thousands on generally low wages doesn't have a single bus operating to it. That's the sort of places that operators should be focused on and is the place if I was going to extend some services that I'd be looking at.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Durham/5...49!1m0!3e0 - Stuff like that is areas that GNE should be looking at if they want to expand and giving people services which don't exist rather than competing on stuff that does exist. Stagecoach's 1 and 22 extensions we're good extensions imo as they gave direct links for many people to Cobalt which didn't have them beforehand even known it affected GNE's services badly but at least there's a purpose to it.

The 21 extension to Brandon is just mindless competition unless there's some contract for Durham Uni and doesn't bring anything new for passengers. The X21 extension wasn't really an extension and more a replacement for the short Bishop service which left the other side of the route without a bus (could be argued it was negative).

Likewise I completely agree with what you're saying about new areas! While there's some doubt as to whether an additional bus service running through an already served area is that much of an improvement. I can't argue that a new service running to places without a bus service would be far more beneficial. Having said that I would infer that the reduction on the 6 has more to do with COVID than the X21, as frequencies aren't down on the 43 or 49/49a atm because of competition, having said that another bus along that corridor won't be helping with recovery.

I agree that a lot of new housing estates are popping up and being left out by bus operators. It's unfortunate but a lot of these new housing estates and amazon warehouses are only being served when contracts are being put in place to make sure it happens. I think the only reason for the X5/X15 extension to Shotley Bridge was because of a housing estate only being granted planning permission as long as the developer paid for a bus service into Consett, likewise I believe Amazon in Darlington has contributed financially to the 2A bus service. Again, what it might come down to is that because there are no pre-existing services, where is the incentive to begin one if they cannot guarantee passengers will use it. If an operator spend time and money setting up a service to an unserved area and then it turns out everybody in that area uses cars anyway and nobody ends up using the bus, it'll end up withdrawn and a big waste of money. On the other hand, of course, if a bus service were there, people might use it, the problem is the operator doesn't know if they don't try. But setting up in an area without a bus service already, where people are obviously going to have to be using cars - trying to lure people onto the bus from cars is no mean feat. I'd gather there's a lot more risk involved with that compared with operating a service in an area that your company might not operate in but a competitor does, going back to Brandon, prior to COVID Arriva had a 10 minute frequency so clearly the demand for passengers must have been there. 

I highly doubt a Durham Uni contract would be involved, as far as I'm aware they have no Uni developments out there. But you can't say it doesn't bring anything new for passengers because if you lived in Brandon and regularly commuted to Newcastle or regularly went shopping at the Arnison Centre, the extension of the 21 would mean you wouldn't have to change buses anymore. The initial extension of the X21 did partially replace the 18, however in itself the 18 largely competed with the 6, and GNE chose to extend beyond the route of the 18 first to Tindale Crescent and secondly to West Auckland which are already served by Arriva's 6. The 6 and the X21 I suppose are a unique case - two services which compete over a lot of the route, even more so when you consider the X21 used to terminate at Bishop Auckland and now runs all the way through to West - the 6 offers the more frequent service while the X21 is less frequent but offers the Newcastle connection. Clearly the demand for both services must be there and I don't see why the same model couldn't work at Brandon with Arriva operating the frequent service in to Durham and GNE offering the less-frequent link through to Newcastle.

(23 May 2021, 10:20 am)peter wrote Likewise I completely agree with what you're saying about new areas! While there's some doubt as to whether an additional bus service running through an already served area is that much of an improvement. I can't argue that a new service running to places without a bus service would be far more beneficial. Having said that I would infer that the reduction on the 6 has more to do with COVID than the X21, as frequencies aren't down on the 43 or 49/49a atm because of competition, having said that another bus along that corridor won't be helping with recovery.

I agree that a lot of new housing estates are popping up and being left out by bus operators. It's unfortunate but a lot of these new housing estates and amazon warehouses are only being served when contracts are being put in place to make sure it happens. I think the only reason for the X5/X15 extension to Shotley Bridge was because of a housing estate only being granted planning permission as long as the developer paid for a bus service into Consett, likewise I believe Amazon in Darlington has contributed financially to the 2A bus service. Again, what it might come down to is that because there are no pre-existing services, where is the incentive to begin one if they cannot guarantee passengers will use it. If an operator spend time and money setting up a service to an unserved area and then it turns out everybody in that area uses cars anyway and nobody ends up using the bus, it'll end up withdrawn and a big waste of money. On the other hand, of course, if a bus service were there, people might use it, the problem is the operator doesn't know if they don't try. But setting up in an area without a bus service already, where people are obviously going to have to be using cars - trying to lure people onto the bus from cars is no mean feat. I'd gather there's a lot more risk involved with that compared with operating a service in an area that your company might not operate in but a competitor does, going back to Brandon, prior to COVID Arriva had a 10 minute frequency so clearly the demand for passengers must have been there.  

I highly doubt a Durham Uni contract would be involved, as far as I'm aware they have no Uni developments out there. But you can't say it doesn't bring anything new for passengers because if you lived in Brandon and regularly commuted to Newcastle or regularly went shopping at the Arnison Centre, the extension of the 21 would mean you wouldn't have to change buses anymore. The initial extension of the X21 did partially replace the 18, however in itself the 18 largely competed with the 6, and GNE chose to extend beyond the route of the 18 first to Tindale Crescent and secondly to West Auckland which are already served by Arriva's 6. The 6 and the X21 I suppose are a unique case - two services which compete over a lot of the route, even more so when you consider the X21 used to terminate at Bishop Auckland and now runs all the way through to West - the 6 offers the more frequent service while the X21 is less frequent but offers the Newcastle connection. Clearly the demand for both services must be there and I don't see why the same model couldn't work at Brandon with Arriva operating the frequent service in to Durham and GNE offering the less-frequent link through to Newcastle.

Some interesting points here and one a pro-active operator would have overcome.
As it is, the passive 'probably won't work' attitude which courses through the corridors of bus operator towers, still rings true.

I feel this is emphasised by fact people can get a bus from the shops in Birtley, but not to the shops or to several sites of major employment (which has been the case for too many a year).

Might as well post this here

The 2021 Moorsbus Timetables are now online
http://www.moorsbus.org/assets/2021%20Ti...%20web.pdf

Arriva will be operating 3 Sunday turns this year along with the Saturday working by Redcar (The M1/M3/M4 cycle). On a Sunday, Redcar will be operating the M1/M4, Darlington the M2/M3 while Stockton will be rejoining the network (having last ran a service in the last original season of 2013) by operating the M5 (and the short M4 between Helmsley and Rievaulx Abbey - with the exception of the newly added Stockton to Stokesley section, this board is the one operated by Reliance in 2019 (Arriva were originally due to commence operation last year prior to Covid).
A registration for the M31 has also been lodged for journeys between Helmsley and Kirkbymoorside - what these are for remains to be seen for now.

(25 May 2021, 11:57 am)Kuyoyo wrote Might as well post this here

The 2021 Moorsbus Timetables are now online
http://www.moorsbus.org/assets/2021%20Ti...%20web.pdf

Arriva will be operating 3 Sunday turns this year along with the Saturday working by Redcar (The M1/M3/M4 cycle). On a Sunday, Redcar will be operating the M1/M4, Darlington the M2/M3 while Stockton will be rejoining the network (having last ran a service in the last original season of 2013) by operating the M5 (and the short M4 between Helmsley and Rievaulx Abbey - with the exception of the newly added Stockton to Stokesley section, this board is the one operated by Reliance in 2019 (Arriva were originally due to commence operation last year prior to Covid).
A registration for the M31 has also been lodged for journeys between Helmsley and Kirkbymoorside - what these are for remains to be seen for now.

This timetable seems to be all over the shop, think some instances on each service page include journeys on other services but don't indicate as to what these journeys are, some of the M31's are seemingly actually M3's and some M3's are actually an M6.

Reliance have the M31 which I think is actually York to Danby (mirroring their daytime 31X service to Helmsley) and seemingly includes an M4 to Sutton Bank in the mix plus an M3 to/from Guisborough at some stage in the day.

These timetables are badly produced and impossible to follow, hopefully it's rectified before long (individual timetables avaliable soon apparently).

M6/M7 are York Pullman on both Saturdays & Sundays this year.

(25 May 2021, 12:28 pm)Jimmi wrote This timetable seems to be all over the shop, think some instances on each service page include journeys on other services but don't indicate as to what these journeys are, some of the M31's are seemingly actually M3's and some M3's are actually an M6.

Reliance have the M31 which I think is actually York to Danby (mirroring their daytime 31X service to Helmsley) and seemingly includes an M4 to Sutton Bank in the mix plus an M3 to/from Guisborough at some stage in the day.

These timetables are badly produced and impossible to follow, hopefully it's rectified before long (individual timetables avaliable soon apparently).

M6/M7 are York Pullman on both Saturdays & Sundays this year.

They are a mess - particularly the M3 timetable which seems to suggest the Arriva journey from Malton arrives at Danby at 1226 and then continues down to Guisborough at 1300, when that 1300 is shown on the M31 timetable as being off the end of the journey from York (incidentally, understand Reliance will indeed be reaching Guisborough and will be having their break there alongside Arriva's Redcar-worked duty - rather than the Redcar journey having a break in Stokesley mid-journey as per previous years). It also suggests the return to Darlington leaves Pickering at 1415 and has a 3 hour break at Danby, when it looks more like Arriva work the 1314 and 1614 journeys from Danby to Pickering and the 1415 and 1715 trips from Pickering to Danby.

They also seem to suggest that the Saturday Redcar working will start in Stokesley on a morning this year but return to Redcar on a evening as it did in 2019 - presumably a mistake.

Changes to a number of services in the Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Blyth areas from Monday

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/...-28th-june

(24 Jun 2021, 10:56 am)Kuyoyo wrote Changes to a number of services in the Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Blyth areas from Monday

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/...-28th-june

GNE covering some boards of the 6 & 7?! Seems everyone is struggling for drivers right now.

(24 Jun 2021, 5:46 pm)deanmachine wrote GNE covering some boards of the 6 & 7?! Seems everyone is struggling for drivers right now.

Well, apart from GNE! They've been supporting with a load of dupes and now taking on extra work from Arriva.

I note that Arriva's post starts with "Regrettably, due to high levels of driver absence,"... are they referring to sickness, or absence in that they don't exist?

Glad you asked that question,i didnt know if it was driver related,or if thats Arrivas way of saying, 'we dont want to run those boards' i noticed the 55 is every 20 mins,i bet it stays like that

(24 Jun 2021, 5:50 pm)Adrian wrote Well, apart from GNE! They've been supporting with a load of dupes and now taking on extra work from Arriva.

I note that Arriva's post starts with "Regrettably, due to high levels of driver absence,"... are they referring to sickness, or absence in that they don't exist?

Mainly down to Durham being unable to keep drivers due to poor wages/conditions. The knock on effect being Jesmond drivers working at Durham to cover shortfall and Blyth drivers moving to Jesmond to fill in for them.

(24 Jun 2021, 6:09 pm)Driver9*** wrote Mainly down to Durham being unable to keep drivers due to poor wages/conditions. The knock on effect being Jesmond drivers working at Durham to cover shortfall and Blyth drivers moving to Jesmond to fill in for them.

Classic case of the problem just being moved about?

(24 Jun 2021, 6:09 pm)Driver9*** wrote Mainly down to Durham being unable to keep drivers due to poor wages/conditions. The knock on effect being Jesmond drivers working at Durham to cover shortfall and Blyth drivers moving to Jesmond to fill in for them.

Thought it might be something like that. It doesn't help that they insist on having a multiple tier workforce.

So since GNE will be running the services rather than just running a dupe, how would ticketing work? Would they just add Arriva's tickets to GNE's machines, or would they use Arriva's machines?

(24 Jun 2021, 6:09 pm)Driver9*** wrote Mainly down to Durham being unable to keep drivers due to poor wages/conditions. The knock on effect being Jesmond drivers working at Durham to cover shortfall and Blyth drivers moving to Jesmond to fill in for them.

Durham were struggling pre-pandemic - and it's certainly not wages and conditions otherwise other depots would also be struggling (Darlington's issue is still somewhat down to Covid - a well-known member of Darlington's staff is working his final day there today before moving into upper management, and his relief is currently isolating due to a positive test, leaving his successor without any assistance next week).7
Durham's long-term staffing issues could potentially be resolved in September - as it's currently rumoured amongst the staff at Stockton depot that they will be providing the entire output of the X12 from the planned change date that month.

Majority of the issues is down to ongoing strike action at DVLA which is slowing (pretty much stopped!) the flow of new drivers through the training school. Have heard there is a backlog in triple figures of drivers waiting to come in but obviously can’t train them or send them driving until various licence issues are sorted.
Couple that with coaching starting to pick up and drivers leaving to go to other jobs then it’s a recipe for disaster. Arriva are certainly not the only ones struggling of course.


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(25 Jun 2021, 9:53 am)tyresmoke wrote Majority of the issues is down to ongoing strike action at DVLA which is slowing (pretty much stopped!) the flow of new drivers through the training school. Have heard there is a backlog in triple figures of drivers waiting to come in but obviously can’t train them or send them driving until various licence issues are sorted.
Couple that with coaching starting to pick up and drivers leaving to go to other jobs then it’s a recipe for disaster. Arriva are certainly not the only ones struggling of course.


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I can back that,my mate,left his old job back in August,and he only just started his new job with Stagecoach last month but had applied months beforehand,then obviously had to wait to be able to train

(25 Jun 2021, 9:53 am)tyresmoke wrote Majority of the issues is down to ongoing strike action at DVLA which is slowing (pretty much stopped!) the flow of new drivers through the training school. Have heard there is a backlog in triple figures of drivers waiting to come in but obviously can’t train them or send them driving until various licence issues are sorted.
Couple that with coaching starting to pick up and drivers leaving to go to other jobs then it’s a recipe for disaster. Arriva are certainly not the only ones struggling of course.


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Exactly this.

Arriva weren't flush for drivers since start of the year, so no surprise they are first hit here.

Ive heard Stagecoach are using drivers from elsewhere to help cover work in North East - so this really is going to get worse before it gets better im afraid.

A sign of how bus partnerships will work though - operators asking others to help rather than drop the service level - small evidences of working in partnership for the greater good.

Are the northumbria depots better or worse off, given the reductions to 46, 55 and X10/X11.

(25 Jun 2021, 6:46 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Are the northumbria depots better or worse off, given the reductions to 46, 55 and X10/X11.

These reductions are in addition to the other services at Northumbria that never returned to pre-pandemic frequencies.

(25 Jun 2021, 6:46 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Are the northumbria depots better or worse off, given the reductions to 46, 55 and X10/X11.

A bit of both, Blyth are helping Jesmond out who in turn have drivers helping at Durham. The reductions to frequent services are probably to help with this.
As said above, Stagecoach are borrowing drivers from other divisions to help cover their work, I know Hartlepool have drivers from Rugby and even Scotland to help them out and they're still losing mileage hand over fist, similar happening at Stockton now too.

(24 Jun 2021, 10:56 am)Kuyoyo wrote Changes to a number of services in the Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Blyth areas from Monday

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/...-28th-june

Typical Arriva statement, its the drivers fault they are having to cut back on service levels.

(27 Jun 2021, 9:23 am)Driver9*** wrote Typical Arriva statement, its the drivers fault they are having to cut back on service levels.

So you'd rather them lie to the customers?