(27 May 2022, 8:27 pm)Dan wrote You’re deluded if you truly believe there hasn’t been extensive discussions between Go North East and the local authorities about these proposed changes.

The reason they are keeping quiet is because they cannot yet ascertain what kind of service provision will be maintained - what can be captured within their budget and if they need to make some savings on their existing contracted bus network to pay for something else.

I’d hazard a guess that the local authorities are not too disheartened by the fact they finally have an opportunity to review poor-performing contracted bus services which carry very few passengers, which offers very little value to taxpayers.

I’m looking forward to you making these same comments about Arriva and Stagecoach when their cuts come later this year.


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Oh I'm sure the LAs are over the moon that GNE have generously presented them this fantastic opportunity.  Kindness beyond words.

I think the reason Arriva and Stagecoach aren't getting too much stick is to do with the fact that they seem to be continuing to try to provide a service, minimal tinkering beyond frequency changes, not cutting off communities.  Of course that may all change when funding dries up, but at least in the meantime they are giving services the best chance to recover before throwing in the towel.  Stagecoach of course have already revised their Newcastle network, with little substantial impact on passengers and which on the whole were substantially less devastating to the network than those chosen by GNE.

(27 May 2022, 9:21 pm)Storx wrote It'll be Arriva Durham County where the cuts will be rather than Northumbria. There's some piss poor routes down there with the 56/57/57a, 62 (Durham), some of the Darlington locals, 3 (Redcar), 81 (Redcar), the Stokesley / Great Ayton services just to pick a few.

The 51/51A is already paid by Nexus and always has been if I'm right.

The 62 is already a supported service, IIRC and interworks with the 61 - both of them serving parts of Durham served by no other service.

That said, 1331 is sounding rough, this week.

(27 May 2022, 10:21 pm)BusLoverMum wrote The 62 is already a supported service, IIRC and interworks with the 61 - both of them serving parts of Durham served by no other service.

That said, 1331 is sounding rough, this week.

Aye that's fair honestly didn't realise that 61 existed, never seen it before. Not surprised though at them being subsidised already, they're rather odd routes assuming for the prison the 62.

(27 May 2022, 10:13 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Oh I'm sure the LAs are over the moon that GNE have generously presented them this fantastic opportunity.  Kindness beyond words.

I think the reason Arriva and Stagecoach aren't getting too much stick is to do with the fact that they seem to be continuing to try to provide a service, minimal tinkering beyond frequency changes, not cutting off communities.  Of course that may all change when funding dries up, but at least in the meantime they are giving services the best chance to recover before throwing in the towel.  Stagecoach of course have already revised their Newcastle network, with little substantial impact on passengers and which on the whole were substantially less devastating to the network than those chosen by GNE.

Where's that like button?

(27 May 2022, 10:13 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Oh I'm sure the LAs are over the moon that GNE have generously presented them this fantastic opportunity.  Kindness beyond words.

I think the reason Arriva and Stagecoach aren't getting too much stick is to do with the fact that they seem to be continuing to try to provide a service, minimal tinkering beyond frequency changes, not cutting off communities.  Of course that may all change when funding dries up, but at least in the meantime they are giving services the best chance to recover before throwing in the towel.  Stagecoach of course have already revised their Newcastle network, with little substantial impact on passengers and which on the whole were substantially less devastating to the network than those chosen by GNE.

To be fair, SNE also "pulled a GNE" for he umpteenth time with the 32 and 32A and others, people just dont see it. So I am not sure they are any better. They are just lucky they operate in areas with high levels of social deprivation and a relatively compact "bus friendly" road network.

(27 May 2022, 10:42 pm)Andreos1 wrote Where's that like button?

It doesn’t exist - and you’re just as bad as him if you wanted to like a post where, again, my words had been twisted.

I suspect local authorities are being very realistic about the current situation, are well aware of the repercussions, and have been prepared for this for many months (and are likely to be prepared for what could come in the future with other operators too). They maybe aren’t quite as blinkered as members of this forum.

Other posters have commented in the past about what a waste some of the current secured bus services are and how they carry so few passengers that a taxi bus or DRT-style service would be more appropriate. They are like this because they have been for years, and they’ve had no excuse or reason to need to cut them back. Going back to my original point, if the local authority doesn’t have enough money in their budget to maintain much beyond their existing network of secured bus services, then they will have to cut their cloth with their own dross to pay for it. We have seen that already in North Tyneside with the withdrawal of some services and frequency changes of others, and I would argue they have got a much better network for it now. Regardless of your views on operators not running poor performing services on a commercial basis, I would like to think that everyone could agree it is better that the taxpayer funds services which do carry passengers, services which offer good value and passengers per pound.


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(27 May 2022, 10:43 pm)DeltaMan wrote To be fair, SNE also "pulled a GNE" for he umpteenth time with the 32 and 32A and others, people just dont see it. So I am not sure they are any better. They are just lucky they operate in areas with high levels of social deprivation and a relatively compact "bus friendly" road network.

Yes, indeed - the 18 and 35 in Newcastle too, and had proposed to do the same in other communities such as the 8 and 18/19 in Sunderland, 30 in South Tyneside, and so on… though the latter changes didn’t come into effect in reality but have presumably been postponed to take place at some point later this year when Government support dries up.

The Stagecoach network is completely different to that of the network Go North East operates, and, as reluctant as I am to do it publicly, it goes back to a point that Andreos1 has made in the past that I do agree with, in that the network has to do something meaningful for customers for everything else to work. Perhaps Stagecoach’s cross-city services which provide not just a link to cities but also their hospitals, schools and nearby towns and suburbs are what more customers want and need.

That said, even Stagecoach has some complete dross which if they are in financial difficulty (albeit to a lesser extent than other operators in the region) then it is understandable why they have looked to withdraw some of these services - and well done to Nexus for maintaining service provision in the areas which would have been impacted by this decision.

Stagecoach understandably receives less criticism because their cuts haven’t been anywhere near as large or as frequent - and perhaps it has something to do with the fact they’ve approached their customer communications differently. I suspect following the changes Go North East and Stagecoach made in March, local authorities insisted on a different and more customer-driven consultation approach this time around, and it will be interesting to see how the rest of the year pans out in relation to further cuts and what communications are made.


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(28 May 2022, 5:12 am)Dan wrote Yes, indeed - the 18 and 35 in Newcastle too, and had proposed to do the same in other communities such as the 8 and 18/19 in Sunderland, 30 in South Tyneside, and so on… though the latter changes didn’t come into effect in reality but have presumably been postponed to take place at some point later this year when Government support dries up.

The Stagecoach network is completely different to that of the network Go North East operates, and, as reluctant as I am to do it publicly, it goes back to a point that Andreos1 has made in the past that I do agree with, in that the network has to do something meaningful for customers for everything else to work. Perhaps Stagecoach’s cross-city services which provide not just a link to cities but also their hospitals, schools and nearby towns and suburbs are what more customers want and need.

That said, even Stagecoach has some complete dross which if they are in financial difficulty (albeit to a lesser extent than other operators in the region) then it is understandable why they have looked to withdraw some of these services - and well done to Nexus for maintaining service provision in the areas which would have been impacted by this decision.

Stagecoach understandably receives less criticism because their cuts haven’t been anywhere near as large or as frequent - and perhaps it has something to do with the fact they’ve approached their customer communications differently. I suspect following the changes Go North East and Stagecoach made in March, local authorities insisted on a different and more customer-driven consultation approach this time around, and it will be interesting to see how the rest of the year pans out in relation to further cuts and what communications are made.


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In fairness the only reason no-one discusses SNE is because no-one lives in the operating area on here bar the kid near West Road who hates them. 

They deserve more criticism than they get as they're much worse than Arriva who are the devil advocate on here and GNE. Their Hartlepool network is an absolute shambles on both network and fleet which has Darts in frontline service daily and those awful MAN Darts. They also like cutting things but it's not as noticeable as let's be honest anyone could run a bus service along West Road and Benwell and make a profit since there's low car usage and no alternative at all buts let's got kid ourselves with the likes of the 33, 84 and Q3 which are ex Stagecoach services which they dumped off years ago and the service between the West End and the Metro Centre is absolutely appalling and don't serve shops either. I know someone who lives in Benwell who has to go food shopping at Byker as they can't get to any supermarket closer other than the poor Morrison's at Cowgate (Metro Centre / Kingston Park inaccessible).

Not to mention the god damn awful ALX 300's which are still on frontline service to Ponteland and Kingston Park which are currently being dumped on Stockton which if Arriva or GNE done would be WW3.

(28 May 2022, 6:08 am)Storx wrote In fairness the only reason no-one discusses SNE is because no-one lives in the operating area on here bar the kid near West Road who hates them. 

They deserve more criticism than they get as they're much worse than Arriva who are the devil advocate on here and GNE. Their Hartlepool network is an absolute shambles on both network and fleet which has Darts in frontline service daily and those awful MAN Darts. They also like cutting things but it's not as noticeable as let's be honest anyone could run a bus service along West Road and Benwell and make a profit since there's low car usage and no alternative at all buts let's got kid ourselves with the likes of the 33, 84 and Q3 which are ex Stagecoach services which they dumped off years ago and the service between the West End and the Metro Centre is absolutely appalling and don't serve shops either. I know someone who lives in Benwell who has to go food shopping at Byker as they can't get to any supermarket closer other than the poor Morrison's at Cowgate (Metro Centre / Kingston Park inaccessible).

Not to mention the god damn awful ALX 300's which are still on frontline service to Ponteland and Kingston Park which are currently being dumped on Stockton which if Arriva or GNE done would be WW3.

To be fair, I've mentioned their operations plenty of times. Particularly in places like Shields where they've insisted on keeping the network as it's always been and continue to cut costs as far as the depot goes.
Why they insist on feeding the town centre when there must be many other viable (certainly at key parts of the day) parts of the area that don't have operations is beyond me.

But at the same time (despite poor provision cross river in the west end - again something I've brought up in the past as it fits in with my traffic flows/road investment/lack of bus services agenda), they're not telling the world they're #betterthanever, they're not cancelling services due to football matches and they're not weilding the axe as though they're a little kid with a new He-Man toy on Christmas morning.

And to be honest, even if some of the buses are awful, they're better than nowt and may just throw some weight behind the argument that paint jobs and titivations aren't always needed.

(28 May 2022, 8:16 am)Andreos1 wrote they're not telling the world they're #betterthanever

I'm not sure any other operator has either, since they started encountering huge operational challenges... But this is something else folk on this forum are hopelessly clinging onto, in order to have a pop at one particular operator.

(28 May 2022, 8:21 am)Dan wrote I'm not sure any other operator has either, since they started encountering huge operational challenges... But this is something else folk on this forum are hopelessly clinging onto, in order to have a pop at one particular operator.

Maybe all that advertising & PR work with a major focus on a catchy strapline had a major, lasting impact!
To be honest, when I first heard it I was lovin' it. And although a Mars a day helps me work, rest and play - they were certainly not #betterthanever.
And as nice as those new vehicles are - they didn't leave me with the impression that once driven, forever smitten. And certainly weren't the best a man can get.

Remind me though, when did the huge operational challenges start and when did the corporate messaging about being #betterthanever end?
Cos I'm pretty sure it's definitely been used quite a bit since March 2020.
Unless you're saying those huge operational challenges didn't exist during the early days of the pandemic?

(28 May 2022, 8:25 am)Andreos1 wrote Remind me though, when did the huge operational challenges start and when did the corporate messaging about being #betterthanever end?
Cos I'm pretty sure it's definitely been used quite a bit since March 2020.
Unless you're saying those huge operational challenges didn't exist during the early days of the pandemic?

I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make - as usual I assume there's an agenda behind your post - but Arriva and Stagecoach had very clear operational challenges in the early days of the pandemic whereas Go North East did not. I recall at one point you made a post about Go North East's arrogance in that respect, as they were quite bullish in quite proudly talking about it.

(28 May 2022, 8:32 am)Dan wrote I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make - as usual I assume there's an agenda behind your post - but Arriva and Stagecoach had very clear operational challenges in the early days of the pandemic whereas Go North East did not. I recall at one point you made a post about Go North East's arrogance in that respect, as they were quite bullish in quite proudly talking about it.

What agenda would that be Daniel?

(28 May 2022, 8:35 am)Andreos1 wrote What agenda would that be Daniel?

You tell me, Andreos!

(28 May 2022, 8:36 am)Dan wrote You tell me, Andreos!

Well I've already mentioned my only agenda earlier today. So I'll assume you didn't note that.

Just for your benefit

traffic flows/road investment/lack of bus services agenda

(28 May 2022, 5:12 am)Dan wrote Yes, indeed - the 18 and 35 in Newcastle too, and had proposed to do the same in other communities such as the 8 and 18/19 in Sunderland, 30 in South Tyneside, and so on… though the latter changes didn’t come into effect in reality but have presumably been postponed to take place at some point later this year when Government support dries up.

The Stagecoach network is completely different to that of the network Go North East operates, and, as reluctant as I am to do it publicly, it goes back to a point that Andreos1 has made in the past that I do agree with, in that the network has to do something meaningful for customers for everything else to work. Perhaps Stagecoach’s cross-city services which provide not just a link to cities but also their hospitals, schools and nearby towns and suburbs are what more customers want and need.

That said, even Stagecoach has some complete dross which if they are in financial difficulty (albeit to a lesser extent than other operators in the region) then it is understandable why they have looked to withdraw some of these services - and well done to Nexus for maintaining service provision in the areas which would have been impacted by this decision.

Stagecoach understandably receives less criticism because their cuts haven’t been anywhere near as large or as frequent - and perhaps it has something to do with the fact they’ve approached their customer communications differently. I suspect following the changes Go North East and Stagecoach made in March, local authorities insisted on a different and more customer-driven consultation approach this time around, and it will be interesting to see how the rest of the year pans out in relation to further cuts and what communications are made.


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Until this week, I wasn't aware that the DfT decided that 80% of pre-pandemic passengers is now the "new normal" and that they want to know by July 1st what bus networks in some parts of the England may look like when BRG runs out later this year.

I am not saying I agree with the changes, but I think with that in mind, these GNE changes are a forerunner to what ANE will most certainly do given the profile of the network they run and what SNE may do in areas like Hartlepool and parts of Stockton and South Tyneside.

(28 May 2022, 9:17 am)DeltaMan wrote Until this week, I wasn't aware that the DfT decided that 80% of pre-pandemic passengers is now the "new normal" and that they want to know by July 1st what bus networks in some parts of the England may look like when BRG runs out later this year. 

I am not saying I agree with the changes, but I think with that in mind, these GNE changes are a forerunner to what ANE will most certainly do given the profile of the network they run and what SNE may do in areas like Hartlepool and parts of Stockton and South Tyneside.

I think MG is quoted as saying GNE are at 15-20%.

(28 May 2022, 12:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think MG is quoted as saying GNE are at 15-20%.

I hope he meant 15 to 20% short or GNE are really in bother! 

I think operators, DfT, Local Authorities need to be really careful what they do before BRG runs out as this is the first time since 2019 there have been a sustained period no restrictions. I know of offices which are returning almost full time after the Sunmer and the DfTs own stats show bus use is increasing. Is that enough? only operators know.

On some days,  use is very close to 100% of pre-pandemic levels and tracking higher than London. I just hope an inadvertent rug isn't being pulled just as we are going to see a mini bus boom as folk are priced away from cars and higher bills from home working.

(28 May 2022, 1:19 pm)DeltaMan wrote I hope he meant 15 to 20% short or GNE are really in bother! 

I think operators, DfT, Local Authorities need to be really careful what they do before BRG runs out as this is the first time since 2019 there have been a sustained period no restrictions. I know of offices which are returning almost full time after the Sunmer and the DfTs own stats show bus use is increasing. Is that enough? only operators know.

On some days,  use is very close to 100% of pre-pandemic levels and tracking higher than London. I just hope an inadvertent rug isn't being pulled just as we are going to see a mini bus boom as folk are priced away from cars and higher bills from home working.

Speaking of which, saw a 21 coming out of Durham circa 1630 yesterday. Had just left the Arnison heading north and it was displaying bus full.
Standees all the way down the saloon.

But on your other point, it would be ironic if certain operators were to 'pull the rug' and miss any increase in numbers.

(28 May 2022, 8:21 am)Dan wrote I'm not sure any other operator has either, since they started encountering huge operational challenges... But this is something else folk on this forum are hopelessly clinging onto, in order to have a pop at one particular operator.

Only GNE - still emblazoned across the top of their Twitter account.

(28 May 2022, 5:33 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Only GNE - still emblazoned across the top of their Twitter account.

That's not you hopelessly clinging on to the catchy tagline is it?

(28 May 2022, 3:49 pm)Andreos1 wrote Speaking of which, saw a 21 coming out of Durham circa 1630 yesterday. Had just left the Arnison heading north and it was displaying bus full.
Standees all the way down the saloon.

But on your other point, it would be ironic if certain operators were to 'pull the rug' and miss any increase in numbers.

I don't think any operators are pulling the plug on the busy routes where passengers will no doubt come back in due course.

The SNE changes in Newcastle hit the "secondary routes" such as the 18, 32, 35 etc, and many of the proposed GNE changes are to their secondary routes e.g. 25, 55, 82 - there are several GNE proposed changes that seem odd mind you, cutting Beamish off from Newcastle by bus for example.

The Newcastle - Beamish part could probably be solved by bringing the B1 back on weekends and holidays.

(29 May 2022, 8:51 am)busmanT wrote I don't think any operators are pulling the plug on the busy routes where passengers will no doubt come back in due course.

The SNE changes in Newcastle hit the "secondary routes" such as the 18, 32, 35 etc, and many of the proposed GNE changes are to their secondary routes e.g. 25, 55, 82 - there are several GNE proposed changes that seem odd mind you, cutting Beamish off from Newcastle by bus for example.

But those secondary services feed in to the likes of the 21.
It's core to their model working. 

It doesn't take a genius to work out that a big proportion of those people on the full 21 will not live or work on Durham Road.

It goes without saying that removing a handful of spokes off my bike wheel, will have an impact on the structure of the whole thing.

(29 May 2022, 9:28 am)Andreos1 wrote It goes without saying that removing a handful of spokes off my bike wheel, will have an impact on the structure of the whole thing.

But by removing those spokes gaps are created, and we all know that gaps can be exploited or plugged.

(29 May 2022, 9:28 am)Andreos1 wrote But those secondary services feed in to the likes of the 21.
It's core to their model working. 

It doesn't take a genius to work out that a big proportion of those people on the full 21 will not live or work on Durham Road.

It goes without saying that removing a handful of spokes off my bike wheel, will have an impact on the structure of the whole thing.

get on 29 to gateshead. get off on low fell to connect with 21 to town/Durham. No 29.....................

(29 May 2022, 10:40 am)MurdnunoC wrote But by removing those spokes gaps are created, and we all know that gaps can be exploited or plugged.

Especially by other operators under contract to the local authority!


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(29 May 2022, 11:09 am)Dan wrote Especially by other operators under contract to the local authority!


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So Dan, can i ask have GNE change their position on this? I don't want to sound like a broken records and i may have mentioned this once or twice before but  GNE took on the 29 commercial when they thought Gateshead central were going to undercut them and get the local authority contract. So are GNE now not bothered say if the 29 comes back on the same route as now but ran by ABC buses and is timed to leave gateshead just before the 21 and the Voltra?   I only mention this a many moons ago northumbria had a similar problem with there service "44" and the secured service "44b" operated by ok travel. They ran extra buses, change times and even aledged to park buses in the stand at the Haymarket where the 44b was suppose to put in.  I'm just hoping we aren't going back to a mini bus war if the above occurs.  I doubt GNE would want to lose all those 1.20 and 1.80 fares around the gateshead area??

(29 May 2022, 11:08 am)Rob44 wrote get on 29 to gateshead. get off on low fell to connect with 21 to town/Durham. No 29.....................

Add that to those who might use a 69, 25 or 28 to connect to the 21.

(29 May 2022, 12:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote Add that to those who might use a 69, 25 or 28 to connect to the 21.

Yep