(02 Sep 2022, 6:31 pm)Aaron21 wrote No 204 will run between 11.32 & 16.32 tomorrow

The first two 81s are cancelled same as the 83

Crazy, I know drivers are off sick etc but could they not move another driver to at least accomadate a couple of those runs?

(02 Sep 2022, 7:46 pm)Dan wrote Or maybe continue due to ongoing high levels of sickness, lack of desire to work overtime, and, over the next week or two at least, drivers needing to be taken off the road to assist their route learning requirements (as Go North East committed to enabling Chester-le-Street drivers move to their first depot of choice - and therefore need to move work around to depots where it’s less efficient to run from, to ensure there was enough work at the depot for those displaced drivers).


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The state of the Angel tomorrow on a matchday is a disgrace, running shorts from Newcastle to Gateshead and CLS to Gateshead is really taking the piss.

The 28B looks entirely cancelled tomorrow night aside one journey from Newcastle, there is literally no other option for these passengers 

the depot closure has saved few pennies but yet again it’s passengers who suffer from sheer incompetence.

Every sympathy with the drivers who are totally exposed to GNEs failures, I’d hope Featham clears decks. I do hope you’re better at commercial development than you are predictions Dan after the ‘plenty of spare drivers after insert changes here’ comments you made

(02 Sep 2022, 8:41 pm)Ambassador wrote The state of the Angel tomorrow on a matchday is a disgrace, running shorts from Newcastle to Gateshead and CLS to Gateshead is really taking the piss.

The 28B looks entirely cancelled tomorrow night aside one journey from Newcastle, there is literally no other option for these passengers 

the depot closure has saved few pennies but yet again it’s passengers who suffer from sheer incompetence.

Every sympathy with the drivers who are totally exposed to GNEs failures, I’d hope Featham clears decks. I do hope you’re better at commercial development than you are predictions Dan after the ‘plenty of spare drivers after insert changes here’ comments you made

If you want to find yourself a bus driver for a former Chester-le-Street route tomorrow evening, I’d suggest you head to Wetherspoons in Chester-le-Street. There might be quite the gathering there, and I’m sure they’ll be raising a toast or two to GNE’s management team (so you’d fit right in!)


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(02 Sep 2022, 7:46 pm)Dan wrote Or maybe continue due to ongoing high levels of sickness, lack of desire to work overtime, and, over the next week or two at least, drivers needing to be taken off the road to assist their route learning requirements (as Go North East committed to enabling Chester-le-Street drivers move to their first depot of choice - and therefore need to move work around to depots where it’s less efficient to run from, to ensure there was enough work at the depot for those displaced drivers).

Surely there has to be a point where you can't keep mindlessly defending GNE, even known you work for them. Lack of desire (refusal) to work overtime is a management problem, shutting a depot is a management decision which has been clearly been mishandled, not route training driver's before moving depots is a management issue, high levels of sickness / lack of drivers is management issue since loads of driver's have left.

I feel sorry for people who actually have to rely on GNE to actually commute as it's completely useless for the best part of year now with permanent service reductions as a sucker punch more than once some rather drastic, it's been going on for too long.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:06 pm)Dan wrote If you want to find yourself a bus driver for a former Chester-le-Street route tomorrow evening, I’d suggest you head to Wetherspoons in Chester-le-Street. There might be quite the gathering there, and I’m sure they’ll be raising a toast or two to GNE’s management team (so you’d fit right in!)


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and why might they be there Dan? 

Because of a management decision that damages their loyalty, clearly damages your ability to serve your passengers. There’s clearly an us vs them mentality and a total lack of engagement, do GNE have an internal comms team? A colleague experience manager? All things post pandemic that are more important than ever

You’re passenger facing company is literally unable to get people home tomorrow, and you’ve no comment on it aside a snide dig at colleagues your management team have fucked over. Your colleagues by the way…without them you’re nothing.

The industry is seemingly happy to keep on keepin on, in any decent privately run company heads would have rolled ages ago but it’s becoming clear the once pride of the company is nothing more than a loss making provincial inconvenience living on past glories.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:09 pm)Storx wrote Surely there has to be a point where you can't keep mindlessly defending GNE, even known you work for them. Lack of desire (refusal) to work overtime is a management problem, shutting a depot is a management decision which has been clearly been mishandled, not route training driver's before moving depots is a management issue, high levels of sickness / lack of drivers is management issue since loads of driver's have left.

I feel sorry for people who actually have to rely on GNE to actually commute as it's completely useless for the best part of year now with permanent service reductions as a sucker punch more than once some rather drastic, it's been going on for too long.

I don’t think there was a defence of Go North East in my previous post, rather an explanation. I don’t think it is possible to defend the situation at the moment, which is why I haven’t.

It has previously been stated that Go North East is fully staffed. That remains the case from 3 September, due to the temporary service reductions. There is clearly an absence issue - the reasons for this can be debated among those on this forum not employed by GNE.

Clearly there’s industrial relations issues at the moment which isn’t helping matters, and Stagecoach in Sunderland are suffering a similar fate at the moment with more lost mileage there than other areas.

Likewise I expect Arriva will have greater challenges with coverage over the next month or so due to the closure of Jesmond, especially if the rumour is true that there is very little in the way of compensation offered to those employed at the depot.

It seems like Go North East are trying to address the issues with retention and recruitment by offering drivers the largest pay increase ever previously offered (upping top hourly rates to the highest out of the three big operators in the region), achievable within a year’s service or immediately when joining the company with a PCV licence. Let’s hope it’s voted through as it should result in improved service delivery.


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(02 Sep 2022, 9:09 pm)Storx wrote Lack of desire (refusal) to work overtime is a management problem, shutting a depot is a management decision which has been clearly been mishandled, not route training driver's before moving depots is a management issue, high levels of sickness / lack of drivers is management issue since loads of driver's have left.

I feel sorry for people who actually have to rely on GNE to actually commute as it's completely useless for the best part of year now with permanent service reductions as a sucker punch more than once some rather drastic, it's been going on for too long.

There's not too much management can realistically do about unwillingness to work overtime. Drivers, across all companies, have been working insane amounts of overtime for months on end to put out the limited service there has been - there comes a point where no amount of incentive will get the (majority of) drivers in for their 'n'th 6 day week in a row! Obviously management can do things to enhance driver recruitment, but like all things that takes time and you will also have a steady flow of folk retiring, moving to other careers, or progressing within the company. It's a vicious circle really, not helped by the fact that the entire situation will be putting some drivers onto the sick with work related stress - which makes it worse for those remaining, who are more likely to leave/get sick etc.....

In terms of route learning, I'm not sure how GNE have done it, but I know that when the 1/2 moved to Ashington ANE had arranged a few Sundays where Ashington drivers went to learn the 1/2. When the services and drivers came across, there was a pool of "light duties" drivers tasked with going to route learn the Blyth drivers on the Ashington services, and Ashington drivers who didn't make a Sunday on the 1/2. Obviously this required drivers being willing to come in on a RD to learn routes (taking into account that, in Feb, Ashington weren't hugely short of drivers so this wasn't as much of an issue as with the GNE situation), a pool of drivers on the sick who were able to come in for light duties, and was helped by the bulk of drivers involved only needing to learn 2 relatively simple routes.

(02 Sep 2022, 7:46 pm)Dan wrote Or maybe continue due to ongoing high levels of sickness, lack of desire to work overtime, and, over the next week or two at least, drivers needing to be taken off the road to assist their route learning requirements (as Go North East committed to enabling Chester-le-Street drivers move to their first depot of choice - and therefore need to move work around to depots where it’s less efficient to run from, to ensure there was enough work at the depot for those displaced drivers).


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Or maybe GNE let CLS get run down to the point where it would cost too much to fix it, causing loads of routes to change depots. Or the time where GNE said the X46 didn't have enough passengers however we will double the frequency of the 47 which goes the exact same ways. 

What about the 60+ contracts which are from August/Sept causing local bus services Frequency to be lowered as GNE bidding and won a lot of contract work.

Sheer incompetence and one for your bingo card Management Failure (shock horror)

I could probably name 10-15 other things GNE have done which are just mind boggling

(02 Sep 2022, 9:23 pm)mb134 wrote There's not too much management can realistically do about unwillingness to work overtime. Drivers, across all companies, have been working insane amounts of overtime for months on end to put out the limited service there has been - there comes a point where no amount of incentive will get the (majority of) drivers in for their 'n'th 6 day week in a row! Obviously management can do things to enhance driver recruitment, but like all things that takes time and you will also have a steady flow of folk retiring, moving to other careers, or progressing within the company. It's a vicious circle really, not helped by the fact that the entire situation will be putting some drivers onto the sick with work related stress - which makes it worse for those remaining, who are more likely to leave/get sick etc.....

Hear, hear!

The only way higher management can tackle unwillingness to work overtime is to ensure that the company is fully staffed to ensure there is no overtime available.

Clearly that also needs holidays and sickness to be at the budgeted level, and if that’s a lot higher, then they actually need to be over-staffed - so we actually come back to recruitment/retention being the number one thing to address.


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(02 Sep 2022, 9:26 pm)Unber43 wrote Or maybe GNE let CLS get run down to the point where it would cost too much to fix it, causing loads of routes to change depots. 

What about the 60+ contracts which are from August/Sept causing local bus services Frequency to be lowered as GNE bidding and won a lot of contract work.

Sheer incompetence and one for your bingo card Management Failure (shock horror)

I could probably name 10-15 other things GNE have done which are just mind boggling

The building there is over 100 years old, realistically there was always going to come a point where it would likely need, at the very least, hugely expensive renovation. I'm obviously not sure on what GNE (or, likely, GAG) management looked at, but I imagine the current financial situation in the industry, and how things like energy efficiency are becoming increasingly important, took them to the decision that spending money on it wasn't a viable solution. 

I'm unsure on how many contracts were won, and what the result of that was for commercial work, but I do see the business POV that contracts are guaranteed income - versus a commercial service which is not (and a reduction of, say, 20 mins to 15 mins isn't going to massively impact it). 

While I don't necessarily agree with some decisions made by GNE recently, and I'm almost certain some of their staff don't either, things like closing a depot that's falling apart and bidding for guaranteed income are fairly understandable. Another small point - staff of GNE, or any company for that matter, aren't going to nail the company on a public forum where it's likely that A) people know who they are in the real world, and B) their bosses are watching.

I wonder why GNE doesn't shut Bensham and just have it based at Riverside depot surely it would be much easier.

Not to mention Bensham looks quite run down

(02 Sep 2022, 9:49 pm)Unber43 wrote I wonder why GNE doesn't shut Bensham and just have it based at Riverside depot surely it would be much easier.

Not to mention Bensham looks quite run down

At some point I’m sure that will happen (for the same reasons that Chester-le-Street is closing) - if it reduces overheads and can be re-located fairly easily.


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(02 Sep 2022, 9:23 pm)mb134 wrote There's not too much management can realistically do about unwillingness to work overtime. Drivers, across all companies,  have been working insane amounts of overtime for months on end to put out the limited service there has been - there comes a point where no amount of incentive will get the (majority of) drivers in for their 'n'th 6 day week in a row! Obviously management can do things to enhance driver recruitment, but like all things that takes time and you will also have a steady flow of folk retiring, moving to other careers, or progressing within the company. It's a vicious circle really, not helped by the fact that the entire situation will be putting some drivers onto the sick with work related stress - which makes it worse for those remaining, who are more likely to leave/get sick etc.....

In terms of route learning, I'm not sure how GNE have done it, but I know that when the 1/2 moved to Ashington ANE had arranged a few Sundays where Ashington drivers went to learn the 1/2. When the services and drivers came across, there was a pool of "light duties" drivers tasked with going to route learn the Blyth drivers on the Ashington services, and Ashington drivers who didn't make a Sunday on the 1/2. Obviously this required drivers being willing to come in on a RD to learn routes (taking into account that, in Feb, Ashington weren't hugely short of drivers so this wasn't as much of an issue as with the GNE situation), a pool of drivers on the sick who were able to come in for light duties, and was helped by the bulk of drivers involved only needing to learn 2 relatively simple routes.

It's because of management that the overtime issue exists.
It's because of management that attrition is so high.
It's because of management that hundreds of thousands of pounds has been spent on recruitment and driver training.

To say that management can't do anything about the overtime issue. Well, they can. They could have done. They didn't.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:38 pm)Dan wrote Hear, hear!

The only way higher management can tackle unwillingness to work overtime is to ensure that the company is fully staffed to ensure there is no overtime available.

Clearly that also needs holidays and sickness to be at the budgeted level, and if that’s a lot higher, then they actually need to be over-staffed - so we actually come back to recruitment/retention being the number one thing to address.


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It’s not the only way though is it? 

Growing a strong co-operative culture, positive working environment. Empowering staff, making them feel valued. Favourable pay & terms. 

Similar to what’s needed to to attract and retain new staff I suppose.

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(02 Sep 2022, 9:56 pm)Andreos1 wrote It's because of management that the overtime issue exists.
It's because of management that attrition is so high.
It's because of management that hundreds of thousands of pounds has been spent on recruitment and driver training.

To say that management can't do anything about the overtime issue. Well, they can. They could have done. They didn't.

Agree. Culture is a long game. Also vastly cheaper to invest in retaining staff than attracting new ones.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:09 pm)Storx wrote Surely there has to be a point where you can't keep mindlessly defending GNE, even known you work for them. Lack of desire (refusal) to work overtime is a management problem, shutting a depot is a management decision which has been clearly been mishandled, not route training driver's before moving depots is a management issue, high levels of sickness / lack of drivers is management issue since loads of driver's have left. 

I feel sorry for people who actually have to rely on GNE to actually commute as it's completely useless for the best part of year now with permanent service reductions as a sucker punch more than once some rather drastic, it's been going on for too long.

And this is what it boils down to.

Whether it be at depot level or Bensham, the state of things are down to the people making the decisions that are negatively impacting passengers and having an impact on a clearly demoralised workforce.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:57 pm)James101 wrote  
It’s not the only way though is it? 

Growing a strong co-operative culture, positive working environment. Empowering staff, making them feel valued. Favourable pay & terms. 

Similar to what’s needed to to attract and retain new staff I suppose.

I think the reality is different - in any bus company.

I agree on those points being what’s needed to attract and retain staff, but generally speaking I’d say overtime is covered by the same pool of drivers who will always work overtime.

That pool has probably reduced in size significantly as it’s not as attractive coming into work to receive abuse, and because there has been an unlimited amount of overtime available for such a long period now that even drivers that like doing overtime are suffering overtime fatigue.

If overtime dried up, it’d become a lot more desirable again.


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(02 Sep 2022, 9:21 pm)Ambassador wrote and why might they be there Dan? 

Because of a management decision that damages their loyalty, clearly damages your ability to serve your passengers. There’s clearly an us vs them mentality and a total lack of engagement, do GNE have an internal comms team? A colleague experience manager? All things post pandemic that are more important than ever

I wonder how many non-bus enthusiasts are in GNEs leadership? Experience in other industries can be invaluable. I’m not advocating employing a hairdresser as head of engineering but having an outside, relevant perspective can introduce better ways of working, in my experience.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:56 pm)Andreos1 wrote It's because of management that the overtime issue exists.
It's because of management that attrition is so high.
It's because of management that hundreds of thousands of pounds has been spent on recruitment and driver training.

To say that management can't do anything about the overtime issue. Well, they can. They could have done. They didn't.

What can the current management do to address that right now though?

Pay more? Well yes, to an extent. But lots of drivers have families who they might want to spend time with, so the extra money for the 6 day week will only be attractive to a point. 

Train more? I imagine they are. But what happens when 3 out of 4 of the new recruits fail their test because they have road rage at old Doris in her Honda Jazz, is the man in charge of IT meant to swoop in and bribe the instructor?

Retain more? Again, payment will only go so far. I know of at least one person who is an active member on this forum who has left one of the "big three" in the past few months not because of the pay, or the job, or the management - but because they wanted to change career, and there are many individuals in similar boats (especially after Covid). Lots of people have seen how their friends/family can now work from home and get paid the same/more, how can bus company management facilitate people driving buses from their sofa?

(02 Sep 2022, 9:57 pm)James101 wrote  
It’s not the only way though is it? 

Growing a strong co-operative culture, positive working environment. Empowering staff, making them feel valued. Favourable pay & terms. 

Similar to what’s needed to to attract and retain new staff I suppose.

---

Agree. Culture is a long game. Also vastly cheaper to invest in retaining staff than attracting new ones. 

Interesting you mention that. There are a handful of people in management roles, who have climbed that slippery pole from the bottom up. 

Whether they've over-achieved, is another thing.
Interestingly, two of the more well-known of those names were involved in a published court case last year.
A court case, that saw in favour of a long-established, well respected, experienced driver.

Just one of many drivers shown the door or pushed towards the door. Just one of many added to the growing names on that huge attrition list.
Didn't MG mention a second tranche of leavers recently? I'd be embarrassed.

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(02 Sep 2022, 10:09 pm)mb134 wrote What can the current management do to address that right now though?

Pay more? Well yes, to an extent. But lots of drivers have families who they might want to spend time with, so the extra money for the 6 day week will only be attractive to a point. 

Train more? I imagine they are. But what happens when 3 out of 4 of the new recruits fail their test because they have road rage at old Doris in her Honda Jazz, is the man in charge of IT meant to swoop in and bribe the instructor?

Retain more? Again, payment will only go so far. I know of at least one person who is an active member on this forum who has left one of the "big three" in the past few months not because of the pay, or the job, or the management - but because they wanted to change career, and there are many individuals in similar boats (especially after Covid). Lots of people have seen how their friends/family can now work from home and get paid the same/more, how can bus company management facilitate people driving buses from their sofa?

This isn't a new issue. This isn't an issue unique to current or recent management or the pandemic. 

This is an issue which has gone on for far too long. It sees people making the wrong decisions (see above) rewarded. Whilst those at the receiving end (generally the drivers at the bottom of the heirachy) shafted. 


It stinks and it's resulted in the situation we see now. A situation which has built up over years and a situation that conveniently has a finger pointed in the direction of Covid.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:22 pm)Dan wrote I don’t think there was a defence of Go North East in my previous post, rather an explanation. I don’t think it is possible to defend the situation at the moment, which is why I haven’t.

It has previously been stated that Go North East is fully staffed. That remains the case from 3 September, due to the temporary service reductions. There is clearly an absence issue - the reasons for this can be debated among those on this forum not employed by GNE.

Clearly there’s industrial relations issues at the moment which isn’t helping matters, and Stagecoach in Sunderland are suffering a similar fate at the moment with more lost mileage there than other areas.

Likewise I expect Arriva will have greater challenges with coverage over the next month or so due to the closure of Jesmond, especially if the rumour is true that there is very little in the way of compensation offered to those employed at the depot.

It seems like Go North East are trying to address the issues with retention and recruitment by offering drivers the largest pay increase ever previously offered (upping top hourly rates to the highest out of the three big operators in the region), achievable within a year’s service or immediately when joining the company with a PCV licence. Let’s hope it’s voted through as it should result in improved service delivery.


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No arguments for most of that to be fair. To be honest it's not an issue unique to Go Ahead really where they've (let's be honest) have treat their worker's as a number and nothing more and never really paid that much respect and it's been thrown back with lack of loyalty. I don't want to turn it too political but it's noticeable by the sector's which are struggling, pubs being similar. Chains like Wetherspoon's surprise surprise struggling whereas the local community pub where they're treat with respect aren't having issues at all.

Be interesting to see how many bus companies get involved in the national strikes which are coming in; Stagecoach at Sunderland are pretty much certain to be part of it now. Be interesting to see if anyone else joins in as I wouldn't be surprised.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:23 pm)mb134 wrote There's not too much management can realistically do about unwillingness to work overtime. Drivers, across all companies, have been working insane amounts of overtime for months on end to put out the limited service there has been - there comes a point where no amount of incentive will get the (majority of) drivers in for their 'n'th 6 day week in a row! Obviously management can do things to enhance driver recruitment, but like all things that takes time and you will also have a steady flow of folk retiring, moving to other careers, or progressing within the company. It's a vicious circle really, not helped by the fact that the entire situation will be putting some drivers onto the sick with work related stress - which makes it worse for those remaining, who are more likely to leave/get sick etc.....

In terms of route learning, I'm not sure how GNE have done it, but I know that when the 1/2 moved to Ashington ANE had arranged a few Sundays where Ashington drivers went to learn the 1/2. When the services and drivers came across, there was a pool of "light duties" drivers tasked with going to route learn the Blyth drivers on the Ashington services, and Ashington drivers who didn't make a Sunday on the 1/2. Obviously this required drivers being willing to come in on a RD to learn routes (taking into account that, in Feb, Ashington weren't hugely short of drivers so this wasn't as much of an issue as with the GNE situation), a pool of drivers on the sick who were able to come in for light duties, and was helped by the bulk of drivers involved only needing to learn 2 relatively simple routes.

Aye no arguments about most of that but I do believe that there has been some form of an unofficial overtime ban in some places because of the industrial relations, whether that's still ongoing I'm not 100% sure but I know CLS were at one point and I believe there was been mentions of it elsewhere aswell. Definitely agreed with the vicious circle mind not to mention the poor driver's remaining on the front line are getting the crap in their face by the public and being honest even I couldn't be arsed with that for the pretty poor pay really.

Interesting on how Blyth/Ashington worked on the driver training, was wondering actually.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:57 pm)James101 wrote  
It’s not the only way though is it? 

Growing a strong co-operative culture, positive working environment. Empowering staff, making them feel valued. Favourable pay & terms. 

Similar to what’s needed to to attract and retain new staff I suppose.

---

Agree. Culture is a long game. Also vastly cheaper to invest in retaining staff than attracting new ones.

A totally positive work environment for bus drivers won't exactly be an easy thing to achieve at the best of times, let alone at the moment. 

Bus broken down in front? Endless customers having a go at the driver. 
Bus broken down? Grumpy passengers to deal with until new one arrives. 
Working a late Friday or Saturday? You're now essentially babysitting a bunch of drunk adults while also having to drive a 10+ tonne vehicle. 

Those are just three little things that spring to mind that could cause a driver to get annoyed, add to that all the current abuse due to the staff shortage and it's no wonder people want to leave. There's only so much management can do in the short term, there is no magic wand.

(02 Sep 2022, 10:04 pm)Dan wrote I think the reality is different - in any bus company.

I agree on those points being what’s needed to attract and retain staff, but generally speaking I’d say overtime is covered by the same pool of drivers who will always work overtime.

That pool has probably reduced in size significantly as it’s not as attractive coming into work to receive abuse, and because there has been an unlimited amount of overtime available for such a long period now that even drivers that like doing overtime are suffering overtime fatigue.

If overtime dried up, it’d become a lot more desirable again.


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I’m not sure I follow entirely. If a driver has happily worked a 6-day week since 2015, I don’t really see how continuing at the same rate would suddenly now fatigue them. Though I do see how that if abuse from customers is on the rise, it would put drivers off picking up extras. It may be the case that any pride in wearing the uniform, providing a service, has been eroded.

As long as the removal/‘drying up’ of overtime isn’t been used as a Shapps style threat, then I agree that relying on overtime isn’t a sustainable way to staff a rota. It may be a little disingenuous for job adverts to promote overtime as a route to a £35k salary if the genuine intention is to recruit to a point where that overtime will no longer be available.

(02 Sep 2022, 10:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote This isn't a new issue. This isn't an issue unique to current or recent management or the pandemic. 

This is an issue which has gone on for far too long. It sees people making the wrong decisions (see above) rewarded. Whilst those at the receiving end (generally the drivers at the bottom of the heirachy) shafted. 


It stinks and it's resulted in the situation we see now. A situation which has built up over years and a situation that conveniently has a finger pointed in the direction of Covid.

So how are current management meant to sort it then? 

Majority of my post was relating to the current situation, with current management. 

There's realistically always going to be overtime of some description, holidays need covered, as does sickness. Generally that's more than fine, because you'll always have 'x' amount of drivers who are more than happy to do it. But those drivers also have a limit, so when the overtime is constant they'll eventually say no - which is a part of the reason for the current situation. 

I'm not disagreeing that drivers should be paid more, and should have been paid more for years, but again it's only part of the solution. Lots of people have chosen the end of the pandemic to explore new careers, or to spend more time with family for example. I'd suggest it would be hard for any management to forsee the Covid pandemic and the subsequent landscape. It's not just the bus industry either, I know some people working in recruitment and from what I gather people are looking for new jobs across the board - lots with no issues where they currently are, but just want a new challenge. It's hard for management to stop that too, especially within a bus company where there is only so much progression. 

I'm not denying that decisions made by management at some point in the past could have had an impact on this situation now, but I think it's unfair to suggest that the current driver shortage is mainly down to management when the working landscape has changed so drastically over the past couple of years.

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(02 Sep 2022, 10:26 pm)James101 wrote I’m not sure I follow entirely. If a driver has happily worked a 6-day week since 2015, I don’t really see how continuing at the same rate would suddenly now fatigue them. Though I do see how that if abuse from customers is on the rise, it would put drivers off picking up extras. It may be the case that any pride in wearing the uniform, providing a service, has been eroded.

As long as the removal/‘drying up’ of overtime isn’t been used as a Shapps style threat, then I agree that relying on overtime isn’t a sustainable way to staff a rota. It may be a little disingenuous for job adverts to promote overtime as a route to a £35k salary if the genuine intention is to recruit to a point where that overtime will no longer be available.

The thing is, they probably won't have done a 6-day week since 2015. They'll likely have done a 6-day week every now and again to help out, picking up some overtime, but they're now being asked to do it constantly which no longer suits them - and those occasional 6-day weeks turn into constant 5-day. 

All bus companies will rely on overtime to some extent, it is massively inefficient not to do so. You'll always have holidays and sickness to cover, so overtime will always be there, the difference is that usually it's a small amount and is competitive, for want of a better word.

(02 Sep 2022, 10:28 pm)mb134 wrote So how are current management meant to sort it then?  

Majority of my post was relating to the current situation, with current management. 

There's realistically always going to be overtime of some description, holidays need covered, as does sickness. Generally that's more than fine, because you'll always have 'x' amount of drivers who are more than happy to do it. But those drivers also have a limit, so when the overtime is constant they'll eventually say no - which is a part of the reason for the current situation. 

I'm not disagreeing that drivers should be paid more, and should have been paid more for years, but again it's only part of the solution. Lots of people have chosen the end of the pandemic to explore new careers, or to spend more time with family for example. I'd suggest it would be hard for any management to forsee the Covid pandemic and the subsequent landscape. It's not just the bus industry either, I know some people working in recruitment and from what I gather people are looking for new jobs across the board - lots with no issues where they currently are, but just want a new challenge. It's hard for management to stop that too, especially within a bus company where there is only so much progression. 

I'm not denying that decisions made by management at some point in the past could have had an impact on this situation now, but I think it's unfair to suggest that the current driver shortage is mainly down to management when the working landscape has changed so drastically over the past couple of years.

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The thing is, they probably won't have done a 6-day week since 2015. They'll likely have done a 6-day week every now and again to help out, picking up some overtime, but they're now being asked to do it constantly which no longer suits them - and those occasional 6-day weeks turn into constant 5-day. 

All bus companies will rely on overtime to some extent, it is massively inefficient not to do so. You'll always have holidays and sickness to cover, so overtime will always be there, the difference is that usually it's a small amount and is competitive, for want of a better word.

There are many ways to improve buy in and loyalty beyond pay.
If pay is a motivating factor, then look at it and do something about it.
Ditto rotas, planning, routes, management, rewards, incentives, on-board driver monitoring, micro-management and many other things beyond fancy slogans and depot meetings that promise lots, but deliver little.
Ultimately, they need to value the people that keep the company alive.
Without them, it sinks.

I don't think there's an all singing, all dancing solution which will fix this problem overnight.
It's far too gone for that.

(02 Sep 2022, 9:22 pm)Dan wrote It seems like Go North East are trying to address the issues with retention and recruitment by offering drivers the largest pay increase ever previously offered (upping top hourly rates to the highest out of the three big operators in the region), achievable within a year’s service or immediately when joining the company with a PCV licence. Let’s hope it’s voted through as it should result in improved service delivery.


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And here is an issue…it’s not just about money. This is why GNE are struggling, it’s…just old ways. The great resignation isn’t just affecting offices, it’s everywhere. 

Modern and successful businesses whilst offering increased pay are offering something more. It’s about the colleague experience, that’s a huge huge thing now, love it or hate it. They have to be kept engaged, they don’t influence policy too much but they feel involved and listened to. Something like internal comms, recognition and reward are all hugely key things and to his credit, MG sort of did it with his videos in the pandemic.

A professional internal comms, colleague experience team would have helped with Chester closure and managed the fallout  (tbh an equally competent team could have handled the external comms way better too)

We might need to bring the bus industry kicking and screaming into 2022

From an ex drivers point of view, I left just over 6 months ago, opting for life as an HGV driver. 10 years I spent at GNE, Crook, CLS and finally Stanley/Consett. I loved the job but the politics of it were ridiculous, the final push to get out came after being "awarded" with a 6 month personal coaching plan (PCP) for hitting the trigger points. These trigger points being off more than 1 week more than once over a year long period. Harsh I thought seeing as those periods of absence were for 1, catching covid 2, Death of a family member and finally 3 a heart condition, but hey trigger points. Add to that the daily abuse recieved from those not happy about the bus infront not running, over 18s not getting the child fare, it all added up. Stressed coming in from work every day/Night.

Since leaving the buses, stress is no more, work/life balance is so much better. Still friends with those on the buses and it's the same talk of " the jobs sh@@ ", pay needs to go up massively but years of " we can't afford x% " are now paying off and drivers like me that have left and others that are waiting to go through their class 2 or 1 and get away.

(02 Sep 2022, 10:16 pm)mb134 wrote A totally positive work environment for bus drivers won't exactly be an easy thing to achieve at the best of times, let alone at the moment. 

Bus broken down in front? Endless customers having a go at the driver. 
Bus broken down? Grumpy passengers to deal with until new one arrives. 
Working a late Friday or Saturday? You're now essentially babysitting a bunch of drunk adults while also having to drive a 10+ tonne vehicle. 

Those are just three little things that spring to mind that could cause a driver to get annoyed, add to that all the current abuse due to the staff shortage and it's no wonder people want to leave. There's only so much management can do in the short term, there is no magic wand.

There are plenty of jobs with anti-social aspects that don’t struggle to recruit staff. It comes down to the compensation and culture.  Being paid a smidge over minimum wage in a toxic workplace probably isn’t worth it.

(03 Sep 2022, 7:36 am)Stanleyone wrote From an ex drivers point of view, I left just over 6 months ago, opting for life as an HGV driver. 10 years I spent at GNE, Crook, CLS and finally Stanley/Consett. I loved the job but the politics of it were ridiculous, the final push to get out came after being "awarded" with a 6 month personal coaching plan (PCP) for hitting the trigger points. These trigger points being off more than 1 week more than once over a year long period. Harsh I thought seeing as those periods of absence were for 1, catching covid 2, Death of a family member and finally 3 a heart condition, but hey trigger points. Add to that the daily abuse recieved from those not happy about the bus infront not running, over 18s not getting the child fare, it all added up. Stressed coming in from work every day/Night.

Since leaving the buses, stress is no more, work/life balance is so much better. Still friends with those on the buses and it's the same talk of " the jobs sh@@ ", pay needs to go up massively but years of " we can't afford x% " are now paying off and drivers like me that have left and others that are waiting to go through their class 2 or 1 and get away.

Tell me that's nothing to do with management or culture.
If you do, I'll change my name to Susan and wander up and down Stanley High Street in a blonde wig and high heels.

It's absolutely everything to do with management and culture and is a sad symptomatic example of what goes on with regards to something some view as 'easily disposable and replaceable staff'.

I've heard theories that operators often encourage depot level managenent to get rid of the older heads.
The older heads who have accrued a slightly higher pay, extra benefits or something else can then be replaced by a cheaper, younger, inexperienced head who doesn't have those same perks. 

How true it is, I'm not sure.
But I can see logic in it.

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(03 Sep 2022, 8:09 am)James101 wrote There are plenty of jobs with anti-social aspects that don’t struggle to recruit staff. It comes down to the compensation and culture.  Being paid a smidge over minimum wage in a toxic workplace probably isn’t worth it. 

I think Stanleyone nailed it above. 

There's a reason the bus in front is cancelled (driver shortage/engineering budget/poor planning/insert other reason) and there's a reason a loyal member of staff was pushed out.

It comes back to that culture you mentioned and the people who allow it to fester.

Just looked at cancellations for today... can anyone tell me how to get home when the last FOUR yrs FOUR 28b are cancelled. ????? PISS TAKE

Totally agree it's the culture set in place over decades. Quote from an old head when I first started " watch your back, they'll (management) will do everything they can to get rid of you". That was in 2003 during my 1st still at GNE. Left within a year, before the last shortage and influx of polish drivers (nothing against those, still have many polish friends). Returned for my 2nd stint in 2012. Culture still the same, sad thing is most of the 2003 management had gone but those that had replaced them had been Drivers / LDs when I was first there. Culture will never change, sadly.