(10 Oct 2022, 6:28 pm)Andreos1 wrote I used to have the same mindset.

Then ticket prices increased, then journey times increased (due to the direct buses being cancelled) and then the later journies ceased to exist.

I dont use the bus now.

Prime Example is X21 to West Auckland, the last one should be 8pm, and if needs be on the return tail it at Durham then run it dead. 

Another with the X1, the Dalton Park journeys the last one was at 16:31 towards Dalton Park and the first one was 9pm, and really extending it to Dalton Park makes no/little sense when Seaham via Deneside, possibly even upto Dawdon/Parkside is just another 20 mins, and if they are still at 15 mins the PVR should be enough, and extending it atleast along Princess Road (i think) should give back what the 62 lost)

And later services, first one being at say 5:30/6am from Seaham and the final one being say 7pm connect it with the 60 and you've got a great advertisements. Leaflets through the doors of people. Time it hourly hourly with the 61 if possible.

(10 Oct 2022, 7:16 pm)Unber43 wrote Another with the X1, the Dalton Park journeys the last one was at 16:31 towards Dalton Park and the first one was 9pm, and really extending it to Dalton Park makes no/little sense when Seaham via Deneside, possibly even upto Dawdon/Parkside is just another 20 mins, and if they are still at 15 mins the PVR should be enough, and extending it atleast along Princess Road (i think) should give back what the 62 lost)

Why on earth would you take it to parkside? It’s an “express” service that should finish at the harbour leaving an easy route in and out of seaham. Realistically it would be better off going either the X6 route to the harbour or the 65 route. But then that could be also done by timing the X10 and 65 a bit better especially on an evening. 

About the parkside thing. Realistically there should be some sort of 60A which in my eyes would take the 61A route to B&M then follow the normal 60 route until new strangford roundabout where it would turn up into dawdon then to the harbour or dalton park if it really needed to. That gives a replacement to the 62.

(10 Oct 2022, 8:07 pm)ALavery wrote Why on earth would you take it to parkside? It’s an “express” service that should finish at the harbour leaving an easy route in and out of seaham. Realistically it would be better off going either the X6 route to the harbour or the 65 route. But then that could be also done by timing the X10 and 65 a bit better especially on an evening. 

About the parkside thing. Realistically there should be some sort of 60A which in my eyes would take the 61A route to B&M then follow the normal 60 route until new strangford roundabout where it would turn up into dawdon then to the harbour or dalton park if it really needed to. That gives a replacement to the 62.

X1 to parkside would really be to replace the lost 62 links, aswell as im pretty sure Andreos (sorry if I spelt that wrong) put in a map for older routes to Newcastle so I just thought why not, maybe some 65 can be extended upto Parkside to re-connect people. 

Tbf Dalton Park does desperately need better connections, there has been nothing but cuts especially links with the X10. 

If there is going to be any 60A, it would need to be changed after New Seaham towards Sunderland possibly hourly via Doxford Park 

Parkside - Princess Road - Seaham - Business Parks - ( Possibly Dalton park & murton) - New Seaham - Doxford Park - Sunderland hourly tbf then in peaks it can run with school buses if needed.

What a lot of people in Dawdon moaned about when the 62 was cancelled was the loss of a direct bus to Peterlee and Easington.

None of these suggestions solve that, and short of diverting the X6 it'd have to be a new route.

(11 Oct 2022, 6:30 am)F114TML wrote What a lot of people in Dawdon moaned about when the 62 was cancelled was the loss of a direct bus to Peterlee and Easington.

None of these suggestions solve that, and short of diverting the X6 it'd have to be a new route.

But then that adds say 10 mins either way, and extending it to easington is just creating the 62.

I don't know about you but the X6 has excellent loadings.

We’ve had this discussion before. Parkside has a more than adequate service, every 12 minutes (every 15 mins due to temporary reductions right now) giving 5 buses an hour. Parkside has one way in, one way out it’s only suitable for services terminating there. If you were to extend/ terminate other routes up there it have to be at the expense of some journeys on the 60. But the whole idea of when the 60 was introduced was to give a regular service to Parkside instead of a mismatch of routes/frequencies. Connections can be made at the harbour.

A true Newcastle express from Seaham I think would have to take 1 or 2 routes to be a true express, either via Station Road and Seaton to Houghton then route join the X1 route from there. Or limited stop via Ryhope and Tunstall to Doxford and then A19 to go either up to Heworth or along the A1231 to serve Washington. Going up to Dalton Park then through Murton to Hetton and then along the X1 route wouldn’t be an express service it’d be too slow. The X1 from Dalton Park wasn’t really a Newcastle express, the X10 does that. It was just a new direct link to Houghton and Washington which didn’t and now doesn’t anymore exist.

(11 Oct 2022, 7:54 am)Unber43 wrote But then that adds say 10 mins either way, and extending it to easington is just creating the 62.

I don't know about you but the X6 has excellent loadings.

Which is why I said it'd need to be a new route.

(11 Oct 2022, 8:56 am)Drifter60 wrote We’ve had this discussion before. Parkside has a more than adequate service, every 12 minutes (every 15 mins due to temporary reductions right now) giving 5 buses an hour. Parkside has one way in, one way out it’s only suitable for services terminating there. If you were to extend/ terminate other routes up there it have to be at the expense of some journeys on the 60. But the whole idea of when the 60 was introduced was to give a regular service to Parkside instead of a mismatch of routes/frequencies. Connections can be made at the harbour.

A true Newcastle express from Seaham I think would have to take 1 or 2 routes to be a true express, either via Station Road and Seaton to Houghton then route join the X1 route from there. Or limited stop via Ryhope and Tunstall to Doxford and then A19 to go either up to Heworth or along the A1231 to serve Washington. Going up to Dalton Park then through Murton to Hetton and then along the X1 route wouldn’t be an express service it’d be too slow. The X1 from Dalton Park wasn’t really a Newcastle express, the X10 does that. It was just a new direct link to Houghton and Washington which didn’t and now doesn’t anymore exist.

There's already an express from Seaham it's ran by Class 156's and Class 158's and it's used by 140k people a year* which works out at about 20 people per vehicle which isn't bad.

* not all go to Newcastle

(11 Oct 2022, 9:26 am)Storx wrote There's already an express from Seaham it's ran by Class 156's and Class 158's and it's used by 140k people a year* which works out at about 20 people per vehicle which isn't bad.

* not all go to Newcastle

It’s also quite full by the time it gets to Hartlepool never mind Seaham.

(11 Oct 2022, 9:51 am)col87 wrote It’s also quite full by the time it gets to Hartlepool never mind Seaham.

Yeah agreed, it's just a shame were more obsessed about jamming as many Metro trains as we can between Pelaw and South Hylton which cart around fresh air half the time instead of providing extra trains South towards Middlesbrough.

(11 Oct 2022, 9:26 am)Storx wrote There's already an express from Seaham it's ran by Class 156's and Class 158's and it's used by 140k people a year* which works out at about 20 people per vehicle which isn't bad.

* not all go to Newcastle

True - the station at Seaham isn’t utilised to full potential, overcrowding is a major issue.

(11 Oct 2022, 9:59 am)Storx wrote Yeah agreed, it's just a shame were more obsessed about jamming as many Metro trains as we can between Pelaw and South Hylton which cart around fresh air half the time instead of providing extra trains South towards Middlesbrough.

See the thing is with the Metro doesn't it just lose money, has it ever turned a profit?

Also the amount of times a metro train has broke down between Heworth - Sunderland Train Station where they share the line is quite ridiculous.

---

(11 Oct 2022, 8:56 am)Drifter60 wrote We’ve had this discussion before. Parkside has a more than adequate service, every 12 minutes (every 15 mins due to temporary reductions right now) giving 5 buses an hour. Parkside has one way in, one way out it’s only suitable for services terminating there. If you were to extend/ terminate other routes up there it have to be at the expense of some journeys on the 60. But the whole idea of when the 60 was introduced was to give a regular service to Parkside instead of a mismatch of routes/frequencies. Connections can be made at the harbour.

A true Newcastle express from Seaham I think would have to take 1 or 2 routes to be a true express, either via Station Road and Seaton to Houghton then route join the X1 route from there. Or limited stop via Ryhope and Tunstall to Doxford and then A19 to go either up to Heworth or along the A1231 to serve Washington. Going up to Dalton Park then through Murton to Hetton and then along the X1 route wouldn’t be an express service it’d be too slow. The X1 from Dalton Park wasn’t really a Newcastle express, the X10 does that. It was just a new direct link to Houghton and Washington which didn’t and now doesn’t anymore exist

The only reason I brought up Parkside was to give Princess Road some service. But really you could do either

Seaham - Station Road - Ryhope - Sunderland - Doxford Park - Washington - Newcastle 
Seaham - Station Road - Seaton - Houghton - Washington - Newcastle 
Seaham - Station Road - Ryhope - Tunstall - Doxford - Follingsby - Heworth. 

You could also argue for an express from Sunderland going to Doxford Park/Follingsby/Heworth.

(11 Oct 2022, 4:31 pm)Unber43 wrote The only reason I brought up Parkside was to give Princess Road some service. But really you could do either

Seaham - Station Road - Ryhope - Sunderland - Doxford Park - Washington - Newcastle 
Seaham - Station Road - Seaton - Houghton - Washington - Newcastle 
Seaham - Station Road - Ryhope - Tunstall - Doxford - Follingsby - Heworth. 

You could also argue for an express from Sunderland going to Doxford Park/Follingsby/Heworth.

What’s this obsession with doxford park? It has plenty services running at peak times and if you miss those there’s an every 15 minute service to the town, houghton or Washington which you can then change buses there.

(12 Oct 2022, 10:40 am)ALavery wrote What’s this obsession with doxford park? It has plenty services running at peak times and if you miss those there’s an every 15 minute service to the town, houghton or Washington which you can then change buses there.

 

If I was living in say Penshaw and worked at Doxford Park, public transport isn't a viable or attractive alternative to walking, cycling or the car. 
Chuck in places that are a similar distance, such as Grindon, Pennywell, Seaham, Fencehouses and residents are all in a similar position. 
You're talking 2 or 3 buses in the wrong direction, the inevitable wait and a walk for the majority of them to get to work. The same home.

This is a key employment site. Not some backwater, 1980s industrial estate.
The fact they've had to invest more time and money in widening approaches to the site, again reinforces the need to improve public transport.

(12 Oct 2022, 11:19 am)Andreos1 wrote  

If I was living in say Penshaw and worked at Doxford Park, public transport isn't a viable or attractive alternative to walking, cycling or the car. 
Chuck in places that are a similar distance, such as Grindon, Pennywell, Seaham, Fencehouses and residents are all in a similar position. 
You're talking 2 or 3 buses in the wrong direction, the inevitable wait and a walk for the majority of them to get to work. The same home.

This is a key employment site. Not some backwater, 1980s industrial estate.
The fact they've had to invest more time and money in widening approaches to the site, again reinforces the need to improve public transport.

There's already a works service for all of North Sunderland

https://bustimes.org/services/594-doxfor...-roker#map

There's no demand for more services, bus companies can't be forced to serve places built in the wrong place and sending other buses there will piss passengers off as no-one wants a merry go round drive around a business park for 10 minutes. There's also the 39A/39B from the West which most people could connect to.

It's not an easy fix but sending every bus around there on a 10 minute detour isn't the answer either. Mind there should be some works service from the South I agree with but there's the old council boundary problem there.

(12 Oct 2022, 11:38 am)Storx wrote There's already a works service for all of North Sunderland

https://bustimes.org/services/594-doxfor...-roker#map

There's no demand for more services, bus companies can't be forced to serve places built in the wrong place and sending other buses there will piss passengers off as no-one wants a merry go round drive around a business park for 10 minutes. There's also the 39A/39B from the West which most people could connect to.

It's not an easy fix but sending every bus around there on a 10 minute detour isn't the answer either. Mind there should be some works service from the South I agree with but there's the old council boundary problem there.

But very little for anyone else. Including those who live within a few miles of the site.
The same problem that exists across the region with these employment sites.

Again, it's not necessarily about creating a million new routes, diverting existing services up and down every street or using resource that isn't there.
It's about being imaginative and utilising the resource in a more efficient manner.
A manner which encourages people to make a modal switch and do it in a cost effective manner.

After all, operators want people to make the switch to bus don't they?

My step dad (god rest his soul) briefly worked at Doxford Park, and even he said he wouldn't of dreamt of travelling there by bus and was thankful that he could drive, and that was back in 2006/2007

(12 Oct 2022, 12:59 pm)V514DFT wrote My step dad (god rest his soul) briefly worked at Doxford Park, and even he said he wouldn't of dreamt of travelling there by bus and was thankful that he could drive, and that was back in 2006/2007

I mean, why would he? Not unless he was some sort of sadist, who enjoyed putting himself through a bizarre torture ritual, day in/day out. 

No idea where he was travelling from, but unless he lived on a core route - public transport just wouldn't be an option.

(12 Oct 2022, 10:40 am)ALavery wrote What’s this obsession with doxford park? It has plenty services running at peak times and if you miss those there’s an every 15 minute service to the town, houghton or Washington which you can then change buses there.

Simply because Doxford Park doesn't have connections to Newcastle, same with Follingsby not having connections with Sunderland.

Say Fred who lives on the 58 route, he would get the 58 to Gateshead, then the X1 to Houghton then the 39A, and thats if everything is linked up. However if a new service was brought in 58 to Gateshead, then straight to Doxford.

Same for people who work at Follingbsy but might live on A690/Silksworth/Seaham, instead of going into SUnderland, then connecting to Houghton, then connecting to Follingbsy it would reduce the number of buses you would have to take.

Aswell with my 58 example if nothing is lined up e.g just miss a 39A, or the 39A gets to Doxford 5 mins after you're meant to start work you're not going to go to work an hour early.

(12 Oct 2022, 4:51 pm)Unber43 wrote Simply because Doxford Park doesn't have connections to Newcastle, same with Follingsby not having connections with Sunderland.

Say Fred who lives on the 58 route, he would get the 58 to Gateshead, then the X1 to Houghton then the 39A, and thats if everything is linked up. However if a new service was brought in 58 to Gateshead, then straight to Doxford.

Same for people who work at Follingbsy but might live on A690/Silksworth/Seaham, instead of going into SUnderland, then connecting to Houghton, then connecting to Follingbsy it would reduce the number of buses you would have to take.

Aswell with my 58 example if nothing is lined up e.g just miss a 39A, or the 39A gets to Doxford 5 mins after you're meant to start work you're not going to go to work an hour early.

Nothing wrong with having to change buses to get to your destination, this is being happening for decades now since 86 when bus companies can run a service when there like, route how there like and timetable to there choosing, if there’s a need for 1 or 2 persons to get to Doxford park from an area where there live then change buses, or contact the local authorities and grovel for them to provide a service, bus companies don’t have any obligations to run every service via Doxford international, don’t forget there’s been plenty bus services that have went to Doxford international from down south (Seaham and south) and from North (Newcastle) either be it secured or not secured and failed.



At the moment I doubt GNE would run commercial services through the estates of Sunderland where stagecoach are running as it would hurt both bus companies in there pocket and won’t make there shareholders happy with loss of interests been paid back to them. It might look good by the enthusiasts but not for a company who having to make business and have to make ends meet

It’s more of the responsibility of the potential employee to make there own way to work at the time stated, if can’t then the employee should be thinking of getting another job elsewhere, it’s not upto the employer or bus company to make sure the employee gets to work on time.

I know I go on abit about having the 60 to shields and have the 20 terminate at Sunderland , but got half of the wish , as the 20 was way to long route as seen multiple of times running 3 or even 4 together going through Belmont area, but having the 24 connecting with the 26/5/9 routes was a good idea though


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(12 Oct 2022, 2:42 pm)Andreos1 wrote I mean, why would he? Not unless he was some sort of sadist, who enjoyed putting himself through a bizarre torture ritual, day in/day out. 

No idea where he was travelling from, but unless he lived on a core route - public transport just wouldn't be an option.

Forest Hall, he asked me what the quickest way there was and i said 'put it this way,you'd be better off driving', even with traffic he still would make it home quicker than public transport

(12 Oct 2022, 11:19 am)Andreos1 wrote  

If I was living in say Penshaw and worked at Doxford Park, public transport isn't a viable or attractive alternative to walking, cycling or the car. 
Chuck in places that are a similar distance, such as Grindon, Pennywell, Seaham, Fencehouses and residents are all in a similar position. 
You're talking 2 or 3 buses in the wrong direction, the inevitable wait and a walk for the majority of them to get to work. The same home.

This is a key employment site. Not some backwater, 1980s industrial estate.
The fact they've had to invest more time and money in widening approaches to the site, again reinforces the need to improve public transport.

If having to change buses is what keeps you from using them then there was never any hope to start with. It’s not exactly a task to get the 60 then 39/A to doxford or for your penshaw example whichever bus into town and then the 39/A, X20 or X1 or even then like I said, bus to houghton and then bus to doxford. 

changing buses is a given of bus travel unless you’re lucky enough for the one you need to stop outside your door. There’s plenty of services go there with an every 15 minute frequency bar the service changes.

(12 Oct 2022, 6:57 pm)ALavery wrote If having to change buses is what keeps you from using them then there was never any hope to start with. It’s not exactly a task to get the 60 then 39/A to doxford or for your penshaw example whichever bus into town and then the 39/A, X20 or X1 or even then like I said, bus to houghton and then bus to doxford. 

changing buses is a given of bus travel unless you’re lucky enough for the one you need to stop outside your door. There’s plenty of services go there with an every 15 minute frequency bar the service changes.

So because its always happened, changing buses in obscure locations needs to continue happening? Got ya.

I picked a random location in Penshaw and a random site at Doxford Park. Whacked it in to Google maps and got this:
It's a 5mile journey and assuming connections work, some of those options are taking just shy of an hour. 

Public transport is never going to win in those situations, numbers are going to continue to fall and road infrastructure is going to continue having millions spent on it.

(12 Oct 2022, 7:23 pm)I’ll Andreos1 wrote So because its always happened, changing buses in obscure locations needs to continue happening? Got ya.

I picked a random location in Penshaw and a random site at Doxford Park. Whacked it in to Google maps and got this:
It's a 5mile journey and assuming connections work, some of those options are taking just shy of an hour. 

Public transport is never going to win in those situations, numbers are going to continue to fall and road infrastructure is going to continue having millions spent on it.

Ah yes, because an interchange or town/city centre is an obscure place. Got it. 

If you drove the 39 route it would take about half an hour also. So with that conclusion I’m assuming you want a direct bus from penshaw to doxford park picking up no one but you? Buses have routes for a reason, at the end of the day you’d still get there. It’s literally not a difficult job to change bus.

(12 Oct 2022, 7:58 pm)ALavery wrote Ah yes, because an interchange or town/city centre is an obscure place. Got it. 

If you drove the 39 route it would take about half an hour also. So with that conclusion I’m assuming you want a direct bus from penshaw to doxford park picking up no one but you? Buses have routes for a reason, at the end of the day you’d still get there. It’s literally not a difficult job to change bus.

But the thing is why aren't GNE asking people in Doxford Park where they want to go and where do they live?

You could create something commerical around that. Atleast hourly in line with shifts.

(12 Oct 2022, 7:58 pm)ALavery wrote Ah yes, because an interchange or town/city centre is an obscure place. Got it. 

If you drove the 39 route it would take about half an hour also. So with that conclusion I’m assuming you want a direct bus from penshaw to doxford park picking up no one but you? Buses have routes for a reason, at the end of the day you’d still get there. It’s literally not a difficult job to change bus.

Ah, so you're wanting people to walk 10mins, sit on the 2 or 78 for another 20 (heading in the total opposite direction), hang around for a change of bus and then head back out. To then walk another 5mins to get to EE?
Then do the same in reverse on a night and sort the kids out both before and afterwards. 
Got it.

It might not be a difficult, but it's certainly not attractive is it? 

I mean, yeah, having a bus for myself would be pretty nice. But I would just drive the car instead, be in the car for 5mins and add to the traffic, that's holding the buses up.
The same sort of traffic, full of people that don't have a viable, public transport alternative.

And they wonder why passenger numbers keep on falling? Archaic, clueless views that fail to take in to account the reality of missed opportunities whilst holding on to the dream that things have to stay as they have done forever. Cos its always been like that.

I mean, it...

...would open new direct links to newcastle instead of having to get one bus to get on another then get on the metro and then another bus etc

Isn't that what you wanted just the other week with multiple variations of the X1?

(12 Oct 2022, 8:24 pm)Andreos1 wrote And they wonder why passenger numbers keep on falling? Archaic, clueless views that fail to take in to account the reality of missed opportunities whilst holding on to the dream that things have to stay as they have done forever. Cos its always been like that.

I mean, it...

Isn't that what you wanted just the other week with multiple variations of the X1?

Passenger numbers are falling because of the constant faff on they’re having due to cancellations and loss of services. It’s distrust or simply because they have the money not because ‘oh my god i have to change buses here how awful is that’ 

Also note how I said that for a bus from seaham to newcastle which is 16 mile away and a two hour journey, god forbid you have to get the 56 and the demand is there. A bus from seaham to doxford park isn’t needed as you can get a bus to ryhope and a bus from ryhope to doxford with the most faff being crossing a road. It takes me an hour and a change of bus to get to college every morning but you don’t see me yapping about a bus from seaham then taking a mystery tour up durham road.

(12 Oct 2022, 7:58 pm)ALavery wrote Ah yes, because an interchange or town/city centre is an obscure place. Got it. 

If you drove the 39 route it would take about half an hour also. So with that conclusion I’m assuming you want a direct bus from penshaw to doxford park picking up no one but you? Buses have routes for a reason, at the end of the day you’d still get there. It’s literally not a difficult job to change bus.

It’s not about that. In this case a person living in Penshaw does not want to go into Sunderland City Centre via Chester Road, just to go back out of the city centre on a bus up Durham Road. It’s far far too convoluted and takes too long. And again it’s all about passenger perception, a friend tells me a family member living in South Hetton won’t use the new 61 to Dalton Park or Sunderland as it ‘goes round Murton twice’ instead she goes into Easington to connect with the Arriva, or waits to get a lift of course. The former will probably save no time at all, but it’s soul destroying sitting on a bus you feel is going around the world to get where you want. That 61 route in the devil, I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. 

Having said that, for the same reasons outlined above, sending any sort of Sunderland to Seaham bus via Doxford isn’t the answer either, as that would take far too long for those using the point to point. It would have to be a separate service not at the expense of the 60 or X6 and I’m not sure there’s demand. Seaham link isn’t too bad, as you can change at a Ryhope without the need to go in and back out of the bus station. So from the south isn’t too bad, except of course unless you planned on changing from a 22/23 to a 39 and needing two bus operator tickets, but that’s a conversation for another time!! Back to the level of service, even Houghton to Doxford links have been cut back since the 55 is no longer and the X20 temporary withdrawal. I’m sure peak time 20s used to call in, but that doesn’t seem to happen anymore either. The 39’s are the only option and they can’t be a catch all for everyone/everywhere. 

Also, was posted earlier in this thread that Roker to Doxford work service which takes an hour from end to end is again a great idea but really? An hour bus ride for what’s 20 minutes car journey across the city?

Couldn't someone from Penshaw walk to Shiney Row and get the 39B it's not that far :s

Mind I don't really get why the 39B is express between there and Washington rather than serving the estates.

(13 Oct 2022, 6:11 am)Storx wrote Couldn't someone from Penshaw walk to Shiney Row and get the 39B it's not that far :s

Mind I don't really get why the 39B is express between there and Washington rather than serving the estates.

Yes, that seemed to be a suggestion in Andreos’ example - and at that point the difference in journey time is just 9 minutes between bus and car (excluding the walk from Biddick Woods to the stop in Shiney Row, of course - 12 mins in car versus 19 mins on 39B).

So at that point, the comparison is effectively being drawn to having a car on your doorstep and having to walk to a bus stop (because the nearest one mightn’t be served by that bus) - and I just don’t know how this can be overcome as you can’t have a bus from everywhere to everywhere, and for every bus that is diverted you’ll have some qualms that you’re increasing journey times and that’s equally as bad. I see a lot of problems outlined on this forum but not often a solution.

The contract for the 39B (when it was originally tendered as a 37) was for an hourly service that links Tunstall Bank, Doxford Park and Washington Galleries - as Nexus were reducing their spend on some existing services to plug the gaps left by Go North East at the time who withdrew their own commercial services due to low use, I suspect 1 PVR was all Nexus could afford/justify based on passengers per pound of cost.

Right now of course the 39 is running on a reduced frequency and there is lots of layover at The Galleries which wouldn’t normally be there - so currently it could do something (if there was a desire to slow down journey times to open up new links), but if that frequency is reinstated then the links would have to be abolished (or add an extra bus to PVR to allow them to be maintained - and there probably aren’t enough passengers in the area to justify this without abstracting from other services they already travel on).


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