On another note, I knew this would happen with the 50's one way or another.

Arriva don't want to have to pull the resources to operate them not forgetting (with some movements) that Blyth & Ashington can effectively become decker operated with the 1, 2, 57, 57A using StreetLites from the 52/53/54.

(11 May 2023, 6:12 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote The 51 service would ideally be split  and added to the existing networks

342 service from Wallsend to go via Wiltshire Drive to create the connecting link to Benton Asda - instead of turning at Benton Asda roundabout create a loop  around asda clockwise and anti clockwise  around  Holystone  (whitley Road) industrial estate old houses before looping into Holystone new build estate and back along past Asda

For the Wiltshire Road link to Newcastle City Centre add it to the 307  route and revert 309  to omitt mullen Road and create a fast link to Battlehill (previous routes)

Additing the Wiltshire to Benton Asda on the 342 route provides a day eve and sun service  as oppose to adding it to a 335 service

Alternatively create a ticketing ticket where it connects for free to a connecting bus and buses wait for each other similar to a transfare ticket

See personally I'd scrap the 335 instead on the East side at least and keep the 51 in it's entirety. 

The 54 is the route I'd cut instead, if the 53 additionally served NT Hospital maybe do the 335 route from Cobalt to North Shields there's just no need for it beyond Northumberland Park really. It just duplicates the 308/309 towards Whitley.

The 51 in comparison serves area with no service at all for most of its route.

The 54 is a basketcase of a route hence Arriva has binned most of it off. At least they still run the 51 on a Sunday daytime which suggests it's busier route out the two.

im absolutely sick of the seeing 22 and Hadrian Park

(11 May 2023, 7:24 pm)L469 YVK wrote On another note, I knew this would happen with the 50's one way or another.

Arriva don't want to have to pull the resources to operate them not forgetting (with some movements) that Blyth & Ashington can effectively become decker operated with the 1, 2, 57, 57A using StreetLites from the 52/53/54.

They'd need Deckers first for that though. I'm sure they'd get arid of more Pulsars at Blyth if they could but they just simply can't as there's nothing to replace them. 

Darlington badly needs new Deckers and the ALX400's really need to go aswell. 

Assuming they'll be replaced by 7501 - 7507 though, whether that's an upgrade though is debatable. The Streetlites will head South imo and join their sisters and sort out the shortage problems at Redcar and Stockton, in particular.

(11 May 2023, 8:13 pm)Unber43 wrote im absolutely sick of the seeing 22 and Hadrian Park

Well it's a clearly valid argument.

Why have an hourly 'oddball' micky mouse minibus going up the Coast Road amongst another 12 buses per hour, when a commercial service can easily pick up part of Wiltshire Drive - offering a better service in the process too rather than an hourly service like now.

(11 May 2023, 8:13 pm)Unber43 wrote im absolutely sick of the seeing 22 and Hadrian Park

Bit like you and your 20 and 61 and 65?

---

(11 May 2023, 9:08 pm)L469 YVK wrote Well it's a clearly valid argument.

Why have an hourly 'oddball' micky mouse minibus going up the Coast Road amongst another 12 buses per hour, when a commercial service can easily pick up part of Wiltshire Drive - offering a better service in the process too rather than an hourly service like now.

Could the Stagecoach 40 not be an option?

335 is actually a busy service with standing room only on occasions through Battlehill. It is a key commuter for Quoram and FLE although going through Longbenton estate could be chopped and go direct from FLE to Quorum would save time

East of Hadrian Park it serves estates and roads that no other services operate through

335 could possibly be on borderline a profitable service imo

Similar loadings to the 342

---

I do agree that it is not viable for micky mouse bus to operate and changes could be adapted

Although we could always suggest to bring back the 311 to Harian Park and go via Wiltshire Drive to Newcastle

Whilst we are there we could always make it go to Wallsend then to Byker onto Newcastle to replace the 41 41a from Hadrian Park Wallsend service

But that another debate about the Hadrian Park as passengers would get off the "22 that doesn't go to Hadrian Park to get to Hadrian park"

(11 May 2023, 11:51 pm)V514DFT wrote Bit like you and your 20 and 61 and 65?

---

Could the Stagecoach 40 not be an option?

Nothing should be done with the 39/40 unless the existing timing issues are sorted first.

(11 May 2023, 11:55 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote 335 is actually a busy service with standing  room only on occasions through Battlehill.  It is a key commuter for Quoram and FLE although going through Longbenton estate could be chopped and go direct from FLE to Quorum would save time

East of Hadrian Park it serves estates and roads that no other services operate through

335 could possibly be on borderline a profitable service imo

Similar loadings to the 342

Aye I get what your saying but imo they could be better the 53/335 are too similar at the Eastern side and if both are subsidised then arguably it'd be better to merge it. Personally if I was trying to do something I'd try and do something like the below map:



Which is the following:

19 (Light Turquoise) - Every Hour, No Changes
19A (Dark Turquoise) - Every Hour, Replacement for sections of the 54 and 342 offering more fast Cobalt links.
51 (Red) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes
52 (Light Blue) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes
53 (Light Purple) - Every Hour, Merged with 335 at Eastern Side
53A (Dark Purple) - Every Hour, Partially Merged with 342 at Southern Side, restore all Wallsend to Cramlington links.
54 (Orange) - Every Hour, Partial replacement of 335/54. Offers new links from Howdon to Battle Hill, keeps the Gosforth to Killingworth links and offers links to Quorum from all the estates plus a bus service from Meadway to Newcastle albeit slow.

55 - Withdrawn, Meadway served by 54, rest has other services.
W2 - Withdrawn, 51 upped to every 30 minutes instead.
335 - Withdrawn, replaced by 53/54
342 - Withdrawn, replaced by 19A/53A

It imo offers much more than what's there now and keeps the core links between places. The only lost direct link is Killingworth to Whitley Bay but they can change onto the Metro. The 51 would also become much more attractive, the route has potential imo if it was actually pushed now the 54 duplicate from Shiremoor in both directions is removed.

(12 May 2023, 8:54 am)Storx wrote Aye I get what your saying but imo they could be better the 53/335 are too similar at the Eastern side and if both are subsidised then arguably it'd be better to merge it. Personally if I was trying to do something I'd try and do something like the below map:



Which is the following:

19 (Light Turquoise) - Every Hour, No Changes
19A (Dark Turquoise) - Every Hour, Replacement for sections of the 54 and 342 offering more fast Cobalt links.
51 (Red) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes
52 (Light Blue) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes
53 (Light Purple) - Every Hour, Merged with 335 at Eastern Side
53A (Dark Purple) - Every Hour, Partially Merged with 342 at Southern Side, restore all Wallsend to Cramlington links.
54 (Orange) - Every Hour, Partial replacement of 335/54. Offers new links from Howdon to Battle Hill, keeps the Gosforth to Killingworth links and offers links to Quorum from all the estates plus a bus service from Meadway to Newcastle albeit slow.

55 - Withdrawn, Meadway served by 54, rest has other services.
W2 - Withdrawn, 51 upped to every 30 minutes instead.
335 - Withdrawn, replaced by 53/54
342 - Withdrawn, replaced by 19A/53A

It imo offers much more than what's there now and keeps the core links between places. The only lost direct link is Killingworth to Whitley Bay but they can change onto the Metro. The 51 would also become much more attractive, the route has potential imo if it was actually pushed now the 54 duplicate from Shiremoor in both directions is removed.

small detail but buses have to run via Newton Road (as per now) in High Heaton as Jesmond Park is inaccessible to large vehicles

(12 May 2023, 9:11 am)omnicity4659 wrote small detail but buses have to run via Newton Road (as per now) in High Heaton as Jesmond Park is inaccessible to large vehicles

Aye that was a mistake. I noticed after posting but was hoping no-one would notice. Got a good eye :p

(11 May 2023, 11:51 pm)V514DFT wrote Bit like you and your 20 and 61 and 65?

Well I don't say it 4 times a day

So came up with a bit of a mad one last night

62 & 63 extension to Cramlington.

62 follows the 52 route after Killingworth & 63 follows the 53 route after Killingworth.

18 to follow the 55 route round Forest Hall

54 taken over by Stagecoach

51 taken over by Go North East

Saves time and simple. The 18 at Four Lane Ends provide ticket options. Could even extension the 18 into Killingworth for ticket opinion and links to the 54 & the 62/63 to Cramlington

Edit: could even do an every 30 minutes to Cramlington instead of every time. Obviously the 18 would need to be timed to match up with either a 62 or 63

(12 May 2023, 11:55 am)Unber43 wrote Well I don't say it 4 times a day

Still mention it all the time

---

(12 May 2023, 12:39 pm)Busu284 wrote So came up with a bit of a mad one last night

62 & 63 extension to Cramlington.

62 follows the 52 route after Killingworth & 63 follows the 53 route after Killingworth.

18 to follow the 55 route round Forest Hall

54 taken over by Stagecoach

51 taken over by Go North East

Saves time and simple. The 18 at Four Lane Ends provide ticket options. Could even extension the 18 into Killingworth for ticket opinion and links to the 54 & the 62/63 to Cramlington

Edit: could even do an every 30 minutes to Cramlington instead of every time. Obviously the 18 would need to be timed to match up with either a 62 or 63

I'd renumber it 64 aswell, that way it matches up in more ways than 1, my concern about that idea is the 62, as 1 extends to Throckley every 30 mins, so would you use that one to extend to Cramlington so it would be a Throckley- Cramlington service every 30 minutes?, 62/63 arent great at the best of times in regards to being on time, its been said a few times on here that the 62/63 need another service to take some of the pressure off

(11 May 2023, 11:55 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Although we could always suggest to bring back the 311 to Harian Park and go  via Wiltshire Drive to Newcastle

The current 308 & 309 setup is working well since 26/03. But arguably if (not that it doesn't) NT - Hospital to Blyth didn't warrant a bus every 10 minutes, you could do this without involving the 22 to sort out the Hadrian Park & Wiltshire Drive issue (replacing part of the 51)........

Arriva:
- 306 (every 20 mins) - Curtailed in Tynemouth and omits Battle Hill Drive

- 308 (every 20 mins) - Unchanged

Go North East:
- 305 (every 30 mins) - Hadrian Park - Battle Hill - High Farm - Wiltshire Drive - Coast Road - Newcastle

307 (every 30 mins) - North Shields - Meadow Well - West Chirton - Westminster Avenue - New York then as per 309 route to Newcastle

309 (every 30 mins) - Whitley Bay HSBC - Marden Estate - NT Hospital then as per current route to Newcastle

With the qualifying agreement, the Blyth to Cobalt link still maintained with a change in Whitley Bay

(12 May 2023, 12:39 pm)Busu284 wrote So came up with a bit of a mad one last night

62 & 63 extension to Cramlington.

62 follows the 52 route after Killingworth & 63 follows the 53 route after Killingworth.

18 to follow the 55 route round Forest Hall

54 taken over by Stagecoach

51 taken over by Go North East

Saves time and simple. The 18 at Four Lane Ends provide ticket options. Could even extension the 18 into Killingworth for ticket opinion and links to the 54 & the 62/63 to Cramlington

Edit: could even do an every 30 minutes to Cramlington instead of every time. Obviously the 18 would need to be timed to match up with either a 62 or 63

The 52 needs to exist between Killingworth / Quorum and Four Lane Ends / Freeman as it's the only service which connects them all without going on a detour. 

If you want to extend an existing Stagecoach services, the 38 up to Cramlington doing the 52 route. Believe it takes 45 minutes so would be a PVR 3 and would work. 

You could possibly make the case of cancelling the X63 off peak aswell as whenever I see it, it's pretty dead.

(12 May 2023, 8:54 am)Storx wrote Aye I get what your saying but imo they could be better the 53/335 are too similar at the Eastern side and if both are subsidised then arguably it'd be better to merge it. Personally if I was trying to do something I'd try and do something like the below map:



Which is the following:

19 (Light Turquoise) - Every Hour, No Changes - Totally agree
19A (Dark Turquoise) - Every Hour, Replacement for sections of the 54 and 342 offering more fast Cobalt links. - Totally agree 
51 (Red) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes - see further down
52 (Light Blue) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes - Totally agree
53 (Light Purple) - Every Hour, Merged with 335 at Eastern Side - Agree although see further down
53A (Dark Purple) - Every Hour, Partially Merged with 342 at Southern Side, restore all Wallsend to Cramlington links. - Totally agree
54 (Orange) - Every Hour, Partial replacement of 335/54. Offers new links from Howdon to Battle Hill, keeps the Gosforth to Killingworth links and offers links to Quorum from all the estates plus a bus service from Meadway to Newcastle albeit slow. - Totally agree with this one but see point about 51

55 - Withdrawn, Meadway served by 54, rest has other services.
W2 - Withdrawn, 51 upped to every 30 minutes instead.
335 - Withdrawn, replaced by 53/54
342 - Withdrawn, replaced by 19A/53A

It imo offers much more than what's there now and keeps the core links between places. The only lost direct link is Killingworth to Whitley Bay but they can change onto the Metro. The 51 would also become much more attractive, the route has potential imo if it was actually pushed now the 54 duplicate from Shiremoor in both directions is removed.

Pretty robust set of suggestions here, only things I'd consider.......

51 (Red) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes54 (Orange) - Every Hour, Partial replacement of 335/54.
* Keep W2 as is
* 51 hourly to A191 New York Road from Whitley Bay, then via B1322 following existing 54 route and forming a combined frequency up to every 30 minutes with the new 54 on common sections
* 38 extended half-hourly from Freeman Hospital to Northumberland Park via Haddricks Mill, Benton Park Road, Whitley Road, East Benton Rise, Benton ASDA, Holystone, Holystone Park and West Allotment
* 22 split Cobalt & Silverlink / Hadrian Park every 20 minutes each
* 307 re-routed via Wiltshire Drive and omits Hadrian Park

53 (Light Purple) - Every Hour, Merged with 335 at Eastern Side
* Issue with this is lack of service from Billy Mill Lane and parts of Lynn Road to North Shields. A few sheltered accommodation blocks around those areas plus the 53, 442, 56, 356 have always been a hit with the 'twirlies' on this stretch.
* One option would be extension of both 57/57A to North Shields via evening route. - Most sensible
* Other option would be dropping the 317 to hourly and introducing a sister hourly 318 service which runs instead via Billy Mill Lane, Lynn Road, Queen Alexandra Road and then re-joining the 317 route at Hawkeys Lane. This however would significantly reduce service around Preston Grange and the 317 is a pretty stable route which is doing good, so would be better leaving alone.

(12 May 2023, 8:42 pm)L469 YVK wrote Pretty robust set of suggestions here, only things I'd consider.......

51 (Red) - Every 30 Minutes, No Changes54 (Orange) - Every Hour, Partial replacement of 335/54.
* Keep W2 as is
* 51 hourly to A191 New York Road from Whitley Bay, then via B1322 following existing 54 route and forming a combined frequency up to every 30 minutes with the new 54 on common sections
* 38 extended half-hourly from Freeman Hospital to Northumberland Park via Haddricks Mill, Benton Park Road, Whitley Road, East Benton Rise, Benton ASDA, Holystone, Holystone Park and West Allotment
* 22 split Cobalt & Silverlink / Hadrian Park every 20 minutes each
* 307 re-routed via Wiltshire Drive and omits Hadrian Park

53 (Light Purple) - Every Hour, Merged with 335 at Eastern Side
* Issue with this is lack of service from Billy Mill Lane and parts of Lynn Road to North Shields. A few sheltered accommodation blocks around those areas plus the 53, 442, 56, 356 have always been a hit with the 'twirlies' on this stretch.
* One option would be extension of both 57/57A to North Shields via evening route. - Most sensible
* Other option would be dropping the 317 to hourly and introducing a sister hourly 318 service which runs instead via Billy Mill Lane, Lynn Road, Queen Alexandra Road and then re-joining the 317 route at Hawkeys Lane. This however would significantly reduce service around Preston Grange and the 317 is a pretty stable route which is doing good, so would be better leaving alone.

Not too sure about the 51 idea as it would make it really really long and it's kinda why I was put off, I was thinking about it at first ngl but then thought this is going to be one of these services that serves everywhere but not really anywhere useful.

The 38 extension maybe all the way through to Whitley Bay instead wouldn't be the worst idea though tbf, barely any time difference.

Fair points with the 53 mind, one idea possibly would be the switch everything around and split the 317 into two going the opposite way so you'd end up with something like this:


But like you said the 317 isn't doing too bad so not sure I'd want to meddle with it. It would open more links from Malvern Road West though and remove the horse shoe.

(12 May 2023, 9:29 pm)Storx wrote Not too sure about the 51 idea as it would make it really really long and it's kinda why I was put off, I was thinking about it at first ngl but then thought this is going to be one of these services that serves everywhere but not really anywhere useful.

The 38 extension maybe all the way through to Whitley Bay instead wouldn't be the worst idea though tbf, barely any time difference.

Fair points with the 53 mind, one idea possibly would be the switch everything around and split the 317 into two going the opposite way so you'd end up with something like this:


But like you said the 317 isn't doing too bad so not sure I'd want to meddle with it. It would open more links from Malvern Road West though and remove the horse shoe.

Perfect idea for the 317 (and 318 if split?) and 53. Only slight change would be for the Malvern Road served section of the 317 / 318 to serve Morrisons?

Or.......

Do one via Marden Estate to again open a few other links up to? Hillheads is already well served by the 308 & 309

342 and 335 loadings are very close if not on a profitable or break even or if not may need 25% secured funding of the service

I did hear that stagecoach were sniffing for the 342 service on a commercial basis which would be in the best interest of the taxpayer however Nexus seemed to reject this last time round as it is a route of interest to adapt

However the 342 profitability wise would still need nexus support on an evening due to the numbers sadly not being there

I do think Nexus etc should introduce a new ticket specifically for Nexus Secured services. Similar to a transfer ticket ...

Say you get on a nexus secured service 19 or 335 342 (in current format) and link at key stops to transfer onto a service to get onto another bus

Intermodal agreement would be required but allows flexibility for nexus secured services to go around the world but allows passengers to get off and connect to a "quicker" "faster" journey

We have to remember nexus secured services need to be made attractive for commercial to take an interest in the area or route

Would the 342 not be a good loop service?

It could come down the A1, either go to Scotswood, or Metrocentre, then into Newcastle.

(12 May 2023, 10:15 pm)Unber43 wrote Would the 342 not be a good loop service?

It could come down the A1, either go to Scotswood, or Metrocentre, then into Newcastle.

That would potentially make it a 40 mile circular bus service

Thinking about this.

But with the impending ABTRL opening next year and the impact it could have on Blyth's services, it only leaves the 306/308 and 43/44/45 as the 'goldmines'. Plus these will still encounter operational issues such as dead mileage, remote reliefs and long layovers.

Arriva although expanding facilities at Blyth, have not made any investment since 2013/14 (308 B5LH's and X10/X11 refurbs). Could this signal Arriva eventually pulling Blyth and focusing their core operations around Bedlington, Ashington, Morpeth and the Northumberland Coast?

If Stagecoach were to lets say acquire Blyth's operations if Arriva sold up......

- 43/44/45 - have Walkergate or Slatyford for some boards

- 306/308 - have Walkergate for some boards plus they also have presence around parts of each routes

- X7/X8 - Have presence & competition around these routes

- X9/X10/X11 - Could make a good go of these

If Arriva re-trenched and just had Ashington, they could get by using all the E400MMCs + the 14x StreetLites for the 1/2/57/57A. Not forgetting that the X21/X22 will likely see a frequency reduction once the ABTRL opens.

See personally i dont know why the interworking is more sensible
like this
44/45
43/52/53
51/54 or 51/55
54/306/308
Would that not help combat dead mileage

could they not run the last 44 to dinnington then bakc through brunswick then follow the 43 rout to cramliniton or even up to blyth. I know it would add 20 minutes to the journy but im sure people woulnd mind that muche,. I mena ive got the 44 to dinnington then the same bus back to town via brunswick and I also have to put up with the " tour de gateshead" 29 serivice.

(14 May 2023, 12:34 pm)L469 YVK wrote Arriva although expanding facilities at Blyth, have not made any investment since 2013/14 (308 B5LH's and X10/X11 refurbs). Could this signal Arriva eventually pulling Blyth and focusing their core operations around Bedlington, Ashington, Morpeth and the Northumberland Coast?

They're literally investing in electric vehicles and associated infrastructure for Blyth right now.

(14 May 2023, 5:05 pm)V514DFT wrote See personally i dont know why the interworking is more sensible
like this
44/45
43/52/53
51/54 or 51/55
54/306/308
Would that not help combat dead mileage

Dead milage isn't the problem. The problem is there's no where for the buses to go. Blyth and Ashington aren't big enough and they can't stay at Walkergate forever.

They were meant to go to Ashington but the expansion there isn't going ahead for whatever reason - they're claiming can't get land but it could be anything ie. Don't want to pay the price.

(14 May 2023, 5:35 pm)mb134 wrote They're literally investing in electric vehicles and associated infrastructure for Blyth right now.

And that defeats the whole scale of efficiencies as unless EV's were rolled out further, interworking the 43/44/45 with other Blyth based routes would be a no go for starters.

Then Arriva still have the issue of the 306 & 308 including dead runs to Tynemouth / Whitley Bay plus the long evening layovers too for the 306 given the fact that any interworking patterns would also gave to tie in with the 307 & 309 to maintain common headways.

Then....the inevitable when the ABTRL opens too for the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11

(14 May 2023, 8:34 pm)L469 YVK wrote And that defeats the whole scale of efficiencies as unless EV's were rolled out further, interworking the 43/44/45 with other Blyth based routes would be a no go for starters.

Then Arriva still have the issue of the 306 & 308 including dead runs to Tynemouth / Whitley Bay plus the long evening layovers too for the 306 given the fact that any interworking patterns would also gave to tie in with the 307 & 309 to maintain common headways.

Then....the inevitable when the ABTRL opens too for the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11

You had said there was no investment though, where there clearly is. Also unsure why they'd want the 43/44/45 to be interworking with anything else, the operation of them as they are now looks pretty efficient. 

I don't see a huge difference in 306s running dead to Whitley Bay from Blyth compared to from Jesmond, Google actually indicates the dead run will now be fewer miles.

If I remember correctly, the terms of the levelling up funding for the new electric buses for the 43/44/45 will require those buses to be running those routes. So they'll probably have to keep them together for that purpose.