(18 May 2023, 7:36 am)Rob44 wrote You see i don't agree. I think most passengers will put up with a long route.... its when that route takes EVEN LONGER when they decide to lop routes togeter.  Take the Q£ - when ive been waiting for this bus to the rigg it used to be packed heading towards Gosforth high street but now it goes via Jesmond its definitely not picking up as many passenger, but if it had went that way in the beginning then no one would complain as its the route its always taken.  Same with "new" buses. GNE x-lines - you get used to it, then ex London or 03 plate decker's appear on it and your going to think well this is carp!!  But if those ex London and )£ plate decker's were on from the start you wouldn't complain as you would have nothing to compare them against.

The thing is though that's part of the problem, if you had rapid transport then people are happy to change so you can create much much better frequencies and timetables by having actually less vehicles doing corridors, no-one on the other hand will change from a bus to a bus.

To pick that corridor out and hypothetically you had unlimited funds as I don't really think it's feasible this one but just to explain. Let's say this Metro or Tram line was built below:



You'd create interchange stations at Cramlington, Regent Centre and Great Park. From there stuff like the Q3 would be little loop services just serving the Great Park and nothing else and because you do this the tram/metro can be frequent because of everyone using it but actually less vehicles than we have now.

At the same time the 43/44/45/X46/Q3/35/X9/X10/X11 mostly would be withdrawn and pushed onto little local services running every 10 minutes or so. Okay there's a change now but you've got a 10 minute frequent service with a change at destination point you might want to go and that's how public transport works pretty much in every country in Europe bar the UK.

In reality you've cut the frequency through Gosforth from 20+ buses to 12 Metro's / Trams and at the same time gave a much much better service which will be quicker for most and more frequent and made Gosforth a nicer place in the process.

A really good example is Lyon especially on the Metro Line D where you can see it working in full glory in particular at Gare De Vaise - https://www.tcl.fr/sites/default/files/2...092020.pdf

all that's well and good but i got dogs abuse on here for suggesting GNE should curtail buses at Gates M and punter either use metro or have a single bust every 10 minute to Newcastle for the Conssesonay bus passes. Also I wouldn't fancy jumping on the 44 at the one stop in hazlerigg. just sit down then have to get up, get off and stand a bus stop akin to all the forces of nature waiting for the " 10 minute frequency service" to arrive, know that in reality the gap will be longer, 3 will turn up at once and at peak time they probably all be full ( see GNE21).

(18 May 2023, 9:13 am)Rob44 wrote all that's well and good but i got dogs abuse on here for suggesting GNE should curtail buses at Gates M and punter either use metro or have a single bust every 10 minute to Newcastle for the Conssesonay bus passes. Also I wouldn't fancy jumping on the 44 at the one stop in hazlerigg. just sit down then have to get up, get off and stand a bus stop akin to all the forces of nature waiting for the " 10 minute frequency service" to arrive, know that in reality the gap will be longer, 3 will turn up at once and at peak time they probably all be full ( see GNE21).

The thing is they wouldn't be full though as they wouldn't go any further than Great Park where you'd have a proper interchange. That would be a tram/metro btw through Gosforth. One core bus route would never work.

It happens pretty much everywhere, even in London.

Just to pick Ealing Broadway, https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-map...290423.pdf

You can see it working there with all the 'E' services which are the 'Ealing Broadway' Local Services. Most of them are every 10 minutes or so aswell using Double Deckers and Ealing Broadway is one of hell bloody busy Tube Station.

It'll freak people out up here as they're not used to it but long term it's much much better than now. Not to mention you'd actually have less vehicles / drivers so less cancellations and since they stay away from the traffic less delays.

Washington Galleries to Newcastle via Concord and Heworth is the one which should be built though and would work imo, it pretty much does it anyway bar it connects to the X1 instead which is undesirable. Then you can start having debates about scrapping the likes of the 25 and having a more frequent bus to Washington Galleries from Barley Mow etc and connecting to the new tram/train. I'd prefer that personally if I lived there as an hourly bus service is useless.

(18 May 2023, 9:44 am)Storx wrote The thing is they wouldn't be full though as they wouldn't go any further than Great Park where you'd have a proper interchange. That would be a tram/metro btw through Gosforth. One core bus route would never work.

It happens pretty much everywhere, even in London.

Just to pick Ealing Broadway, https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-map...290423.pdf

You can see it working there with all the 'E' services which are the 'Ealing Broadway' Local Services. Most of them are every 10 minutes or so aswell using Double Deckers and Ealing Broadway is one of hell bloody busy Tube Station.

It'll freak people out up here as they're not used to it but long term it's much much better than now. Not to mention you'd actually have less vehicles / drivers so less cancellations and since they stay away from the traffic less delays.

Washington Galleries to Newcastle via Concord and Heworth is the one which should be built though and would work imo, it pretty much does it anyway bar it connects to the X1 instead which is undesirable. Then you can start having debates about scrapping the likes of the 25 and having a more frequent bus to Washington Galleries from Barley Mow etc and connecting to the new tram/train. I'd prefer that personally if I lived there as an hourly bus service is useless.

TBH i dont disagee. But in reality where is the money going to come from and how are you going to get all the operators to agree to reducing they " money making" services and start runing shuttle buses?

And also you've got this up to so extenet already with the metro. Regent centre was mentioned.... why dont arriva cutail buses there and punter use the merto. same as X10 to town, stops at heworth turn it there.  21 turn it at Gateshead. Buses from winlation/ ryton, tunr them at blaydon and use the train to central.

For me personally, I would only switch to a metro/train/etc. if I was continuing on for a significant distance, or if I needed to change anyway.

I'm not wasting my time faffing about getting off the bus, walking to the metro, waiting for it to turn up, travelling 2 stops, finding my way back out and walking back to where I could have ended up on the bus!

(18 May 2023, 10:42 am)streetdeckfan wrote For me personally, I would only switch to a metro/train/etc. if I was continuing on for a significant distance, or if I needed to change anyway.

I'm not wasting my time faffing about getting off the bus, walking to the metro, waiting for it to turn up, travelling 2 stops, finding my way back out and walking back to where I could have ended up on the bus! 

But that's exactly what the majority have now. 2 or 3 buses just to get to a location down the road.
Often heading in the wrong direction to get to the destination.

Birtley to Team Valley being one glaringly obvious example.

(18 May 2023, 10:37 am)Rob44 wrote TBH i dont disagee. But in reality where is the money going to come from and how are you going to get all the operators to agree to reducing they " money making" services and start runing shuttle buses?

And also you've got this up to so extenet already with the metro. Regent centre was mentioned.... why dont arriva cutail buses there and punter use the merto. same as X10 to town, stops at heworth turn it there.  21 turn it at Gateshead. Buses from winlation/ ryton, tunr them at blaydon and use the train to central.

The X10 in an ideal world wouldn't exist at all if they bothered to sort out the Durham Coast Line, it basically duplicates it.

For the Regent Centre lack of integration is the biggest killer, there's a lack of ticketing between the two currently. There's also the big problem with fares. In the current system the bus won't make money from the 4 passengers from the Great Park to Regent Centre or whatever but if it was a full integrated system then you'd balance it out and look at it as a bigger picture including the Metro part of it. A bus with 4 passengers from the Great Park to the Regent Centre is a less of a loss than a bus with 6 passengers from the Great Park to Newcastle which no doubt happens. I'm not 100% sure but I have a feeling the Q3 through Jesmond isn't fully commercial but I might be wrong.

It kind of already exists in some areas though but it's not that noticeable, Jarrow is the big one with the 9 etc terminating there with a change and South Shields and Sunderland with most customers having to change there to get to Newcastle other than the X24/X34 which fills the gaps. The 4 at Heworth is another one.

Gateshead is too close to the destination though imo, any changes really need to be further out otherwise it kind of defeats the point. A Chester Le Street - Birtley - Low Fell - Gateshead - Newcastle is probably the second biggest corridor crying out for rapid transport tbf after the West End with the likes of the 725, 34, 71, 25, 28, 82, 8, 78 all connecting to it at some point.

(18 May 2023, 10:42 am)streetdeckfan wrote For me personally, I would only switch to a metro/train/etc. if I was continuing on for a significant distance, or if I needed to change anyway.

I'm not wasting my time faffing about getting off the bus, walking to the metro, waiting for it to turn up, travelling 2 stops, finding my way back out and walking back to where I could have ended up on the bus!

That happens already though for most people, pick someone say travelling from Rickleton to Newcastle, they'd have to travel to Washington Galleries then change to the X1, there's nothing attractive about that; if they had the option to change to a Metro then it would change the picture big time. Alternatively you go for the model from Consett to Newcastle where you have to travel around every estate on the way and it takes two weeks. Neither are attractive to most people hence the high car usage in both areas pretty much.

(18 May 2023, 11:57 am)Andreos1 wrote But that's exactly what the majority have now. 2 or 3 buses just to get to a location down the road.
Often heading in the wrong direction to get to the destination.

Birtley to Team Valley being one glaringly obvious example.

 Not the team valley again - nee body gans there by bus.

(18 May 2023, 10:37 am)Rob44 wrote TBH i dont disagee. But in reality where is the money going to come from and how are you going to get all the operators to agree to reducing they " money making" services and start runing shuttle buses?

Oh btw missed this bit, it would never really work under the current system tbh. Would have to be either public the whole lot or franchised and for the money could always call it 'levelling up'. It's proper levelling up imo, if we want people to ditch cars then they need to do something.

Patching up a broken system or making it 'better' for buses by delibrately making it worse for cars isn't the way forward imo. Every other country seems to see the benefits in investing in transport but us pretty much. There's been loads of new systems in Europe in the past 15 years whereas in the UK there's been barely any at all outside of London at least (Crossrail).

(18 May 2023, 12:20 pm)Storx wrote The X10 in an ideal world wouldn't exist at all if they bothered to sort out the Durham Coast Line, it basically duplicates it.

For the Regent Centre lack of integration is the biggest killer, there's a lack of ticketing between the two currently. There's also the big problem with fares. In the current system the bus won't make money from the 4 passengers from the Great Park to Regent Centre or whatever but if it was a full integrated system then you'd balance it out and look at it as a bigger picture including the Metro part of it. A bus with 4 passengers from the Great Park to the Regent Centre is a less of a loss than a bus with 6 passengers from the Great Park to Newcastle which no doubt happens. I'm not 100% sure but I have a feeling the Q3 through Jesmond isn't fully commercial but I might be wrong.

It kind of already exists in some areas though but it's not that noticeable, Jarrow is the big one with the 9 etc terminating there with a change and South Shields and Sunderland with most customers having to change there to get to Newcastle other than the X24/X34 which fills the gaps. The 4 at Heworth is another one.

Gateshead is too close to the destination though imo, any changes really need to be further out otherwise it kind of defeats the point. A Chester Le Street - Birtley - Low Fell - Gateshead - Newcastle is probably the second biggest corridor crying out for rapid transport tbf after the West End with the likes of the 725, 34, 71, 25, 28, 82, 8, 78 all connecting to it at some point.


That happens already though for most people, pick someone say travelling from Rickleton to Newcastle, they'd have to travel to Washington Galleries then change to the X1, there's nothing attractive about that; if they had the option to change to a Metro then it would change the picture big time. Alternatively you go for the model from Consett to Newcastle where you have to travel around every estate on the way and it takes two weeks. Neither are attractive to most people hence the high car usage in both areas pretty much.

I was talking more about the cutting the 21 at Gateshead, or the X10 at Heworth. I'll admit, I'm lazy, but I would happily spend an extra 5-10 minutes travelling on a bus the entire way than have to get off and switch to the Metro.

(18 May 2023, 12:59 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I was talking more about the cutting the 21 at Gateshead, or the X10 at Heworth. I'll admit, I'm lazy, but I would happily spend an extra 5-10 minutes travelling on a bus the entire way than have to get off and switch to the Metro.

Aye that's fair yeah agreed, even I'd probably do it there tbf. 

Definitely needs to further out field for the interchange to really work.

(18 May 2023, 1:27 pm)Storx wrote Aye that's fair yeah agreed, even I'd probably do it there tbf. 

Definitely needs to further out field for the interchange to really work.

It also only works if the pricing is right though. 

A few years back I would often travel from Dunston to Jarrow, and I would get the 49 to Gateshead then the 27 to Jarrow.
Since I was changing at Gateshead regardless of what I used for the next journey, it would have made sense to save the 15 minutes and hop on the Metro, but it would have been double the price!

Similar situation when I had to go to Whitley Bay, I could either get the bus to Newcastle/Gateshead and change to the Metro, or take the direct bus there. I obviously chose the direct bus even though it took considerably longer.

(18 May 2023, 2:11 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It also only works if the pricing is right though. 

A few years back I would often travel from Dunston to Jarrow, and I would get the 49 to Gateshead then the 27 to Jarrow.
Since I was changing at Gateshead regardless of what I used for the next journey, it would have made sense to save the 15 minutes and hop on the Metro, but it would have been double the price!

Similar situation when I had to go to Whitley Bay, I could either get the bus to Newcastle/Gateshead and change to the Metro, or take the direct bus there. I obviously chose the direct bus even though it took considerably longer.

Aye I'll give you that mind, luckily the new tickets coming in should fix that pretty much. Believe it would be cheaper now than the similar GNE ticket or whatever to do long distances or be near it at least.

It's an explorer job out here right now pretty much which is just a rip off because of the boundary tax as I like calling it pretty much (live like a mile into Northumberland).

(18 May 2023, 2:17 pm)Storx wrote Aye I'll give you that mind, luckily the new tickets coming in should fix that pretty much. Believe it would be cheaper now than the similar GNE ticket or whatever to do long distances or be near it at least.

It's an explorer job out here right now pretty much which is just a rip off  because of the boundary tax as I like calling it pretty much (live like a mile into Northumberland).

We used to live right on the border of T&W, County Durham, and Northumberland (thankfully we moved somewhere marginally less shit) and for things like school buses it was awkward to say the least.
Some people in my class weren't able to use the scholars because they lived just over the border into County Durham. And because they didn't live within T&W, they weren't eligible for the cheaper fares we could get.

(18 May 2023, 12:53 pm)Rob44 wrote  Not the team valley again - nee body gans there by bus.

That's cos they can't! 

(18 May 2023, 3:01 pm)Andreos1 wrote That's cos they can't! 

Even if they could, I don't think they would.

When it comes to Team Valley and car usage, the entire stable, never mind the stable door, no longer exists; and the horse that bolted years ago has been dead for decades. 

It's the same with a lot of other destinations.

(18 May 2023, 2:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote We used to live right on the border of T&W, County Durham, and Northumberland (thankfully we moved somewhere marginally less shit) and for things like school buses it was awkward to say the least.
Some people in my class weren't able to use the scholars because they lived just over the border into County Durham. And because they didn't live within T&W, they weren't eligible for the cheaper fares we could get.

Aye it's similar here, some of my mates were from North Tyneside and they had to pay full price pretty much, mind they just asked for a half and got away with it 99% of the time. Believe there is or was a rule that if you have school uniform you don't argue with half fares.

(18 May 2023, 6:29 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Even if they could, I don't think they would.

When it comes to Team Valley and car usage, the entire stable, never mind the stable door, no longer exists; and the horse that bolted years ago has been dead for decades. 

It's the same with a lot of other destinations.

Not reckon they could flog it a bit more and bring that dead horse back to life?

(18 May 2023, 8:17 pm)Andreos1 wrote Not reckon they could flog it a bit more and bring that dead horse back to life?

Nope.

Once people have chosen the car over bus (for whatever reason), I think it is extremely difficult to persuade anyone to return on a long-term basis. Getting the likes of me, for example, is a complete non-starter. Why would I want to sit on an overpriced and overcrowded vehicle to travel to a destination that takes twice as long as it does in a car? Even if that journey was made cheaper and more direct, I've already paid for the car, which is infinitely reliable as I know first hand whether a problem has developed without the aid of social media or a crystal ball to tell me that 'service xxx has been delayed by xxx minutes en-route to xxx'; or that because of a lack of staff service xxx won't be running at these times.

I think you have to be an absolute masochist to enjoy using public transport these days outside of having an interest, either professional or enthusiastic in nature. You once mentioned recently that Andreos Constantopolous Jr. has been afforded the freedom of the road. Do you think he'll ever go back to using public transport as a matter of choice?

(18 May 2023, 8:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Nope.

Once people have chosen the car over bus (for whatever reason), I think it is extremely difficult to persuade anyone to return on a long-term basis. Getting the likes of me, for example, is a complete non-starter. Why would I want to sit on an overpriced and overcrowded vehicle to travel to a destination that takes twice as long as it does in a car? Even if that journey was made cheaper and more direct, I've already paid for the car, which is infinitely reliable as I know first hand whether a problem has developed without the aid of social media or a crystal ball to tell me that 'service xxx has been delayed by xxx minutes en-route to xxx'; or that because of a lack of staff service xxx won't be running at these times.

I think you have to be an absolute masochist to enjoy using public transport these days outside of having an interest, either professional or enthusiastic in nature. You once mentioned recently that Andreos Constantopolous Jr. has been afforded the freedom of the road. Do you think he'll ever go back to using public transport as a matter of choice? 

He's been driving the best part of 4 years now. 
Has his own car and access to a company vehicle too. 

When he first passed his test, he would use the bus when available (popping to see his mates, going to and from the match etc).
He lives not far from the 21 corridor, but due to the horrendous timings with the connecting bus, either had 15 min walk up-hill or he hung around for 20 mins. 
Needless to say, getting the N21 often saw him stranded in the town for an hour at a time and there wasn't the option of getting a connecting bus. 

He always used the car when seeing his girlfriend, because it was 3 buses and the best part of an hour travelling or a 10min/6mile drive in the car to get to where she lived. 

He took advantage of the fares available for under 25's on the bus when he did use it, but even now (with the recently launched 21 and under fares), he's staying well away from the bus.
He's shown absolutely no interest at all in making a switch. Even temporarily. 

Evening matches such as tonight - he drives in to the town and parks. 
Weekend matches - it's a lift there and an uber back.

Quotes from him regarding the bus include:

Awful

Horrendous

No idea if it's going to turn up or not

There was a study done by one of the Scottish universities a few years ago that surveyed car users why they don't use the bus. Fares and frequency were in the 65-70% range response. But the other thing that was only a couple of points behind was having to share the bus with other users. This is actually the elephant in the room, as is it can't be solved.

So, even if the standard 'excuses' are removed with lower fares and improved services, I don't think enough people will make the shift to public transport anyway.

Having shared buses with people with questionable hygiene and social etiquette (we've all had journeys which make us slightly nervous or glad to get off), I can see how a car is more appealing, even at £2.00 for a single.

(18 May 2023, 6:29 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Even if they could, I don't think they would.

When it comes to Team Valley and car usage, the entire stable, never mind the stable door, no longer exists; and the horse that bolted years ago has been dead for decades. 

It's the same with a lot of other destinations.

I tend to agree with this. Team Valley is fantastically convenient to travel there by car, given the location, road layout and the vast amounts of free parking available. If you have access to a car on a regular basis, then I can only ever seeing you using that for this particular trip.

In terms of a bus service, it already has a 20 minute frequency during the day in both directions with the 93/94. On top of that, you have morning and evening services to the likes of Newcastle, Chester-le-Street, Washington and Sunderland. I'm not sure it needs more than that?!

In may view the team valley was built ( or at least targets now) car users only. There's very little recreational there to make someone use the bus unlike the metro centre or toon. Maybe build a bowling ally or a cinema or even a wet and wild and i think footfall from bus users would increase.

At the minute I don't think "humping" a double bed from dreams, or a table and chairs for Denholm to the bus stop, then on the bus ( with no room for bags never mind out else then off the bus and a walk home is doable!

imo Team Valley should have a rail connection instead of more bus connections. It literally sits on a railway line if they bothered to upgrade the thing.

Newcastle - Bensham - Team Valley - Birtley (new housing developments) - Chester Le Street - Newton Hall - Durham would be a popular service and would actually move car users across for the workers who work there as it would be quicker for people.

Could possibly extend it North to Ashington or Morpeth either and give cross city links.

(19 May 2023, 9:24 am)Storx wrote imo Team Valley should have a rail connection instead of more bus connections. It literally sits on a railway line if they bothered to upgrade the thing.

The irony is it literally has a station with a platform, but it's just for Royal Mail post.

(19 May 2023, 11:00 am)deanmachine wrote The irony is it literally has a station with a platform, but it's just for Royal Mail post.

if thats located where i think it is its a canny shank to the team valley retail park though??

(19 May 2023, 8:58 am)Adrian wrote I tend to agree with this. Team Valley is fantastically convenient to travel there by car, given the location, road layout and the vast amounts of free parking available. If you have access to a car on a regular basis, then I can only ever seeing you using that for this particular trip.

In terms of a bus service, it already has a 20 minute frequency during the day in both directions with the 93/94. On top of that, you have morning and evening services to the likes of Newcastle, Chester-le-Street, Washington and Sunderland. I'm not sure it needs more than that?!

(19 May 2023, 9:04 am)Rob44 wrote In may view the team valley was built ( or at least targets now) car users only.  There's very little recreational there to make someone use the bus unlike the metro centre or toon. Maybe build a bowling ally or a cinema or even a wet and wild and i think footfall from bus users would increase. 

At the minute I don't think "humping" a double bed from dreams, or a table and chairs for Denholm to the bus stop, then on the bus ( with no room for bags never mind out else then off the bus and a walk home is doable!

In all honesty, I mentioned Team Valley as it was the first thing that came to my head. 
There are many other examples that could be used. 

However, when I look at the billions being spent/has been spent on the Western Bypass and look at the traffic jams that fill Kingsway or spill on to Saltwell Road, or check over the bus priority measures at the bottom of Lobley Hill/top of Kingsway, I just can't help thinking that there's a huge opportunity to improve and increase public transport in the area.

I also look at how GNE had to remove the 93/94 from Retail World because of traffic issues and delays (hence it now going around the back of Mothercare).

It's how thousands of people in spitting distance to Team Valley, have to walk, drive or use a public transport system that sends them off in different directions - adding time, making it far less attractive etc. 

It's about more than just having a couple of workers services that don't cater for the people working 9-5 or on various other shift patterns when using a bus just isn't feasible. 
It's about more than squeezing a bed in to the back of a Ford Focus. 

It's then seeing a potential P&R 2miles up the A1 that ignores the thousands of people using a (soon to be widened A1).

It's seeing a pithy £1/£2 fare offer become less attractive due to the number of buses you need to use to get there.

There's a far bigger picture to look at here, it harks back to a network that isn't fit for purpose and Team Valley is just one example.

(19 May 2023, 11:07 am)Rob44 wrote if thats located where i think it is its a canny shank to the team valley retail park though??

Yeah, it's also impossible to turn into a passenger railway station, and there's probably not enough space in a decent location for it.

(18 May 2023, 12:59 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I was talking more about the cutting the 21 at Gateshead, or the X10 at Heworth. I'll admit, I'm lazy, but I would happily spend an extra 5-10 minutes travelling on a bus the entire way than have to get off and switch to the Metro.

Once the Tyne Bridge lane closures start (plus the upcoming high level bridge work) that may be your best option. 

At some point John Dobson street will close at the bottom end for a sustained period to support HMRC works which will hugely impact GNE services 

it’s painful enough now suffering Gateshead Councils attempt at bus priority through askew road, they’ve made it far worse than it used to be and it’s only going to get worse.

(19 May 2023, 9:58 pm)Ambassador wrote Once the Tyne Bridge lane closures start (plus the upcoming high level bridge work) that may be your best option. 

At some point John Dobson street will close at the bottom end for a sustained period to support HMRC works which will hugely impact GNE services 

it’s painful enough now suffering Gateshead Councils attempt at bus priority through askew road, they’ve made it far worse than it used to be and it’s only going to get worse.

Could you not turn the way GNE buses leave Newcastle to Gateshead into two ways with traffic lights?