We all have a feelings about some of the 'improvements' so far but thought there's no where to discuss suggestions which actually would be useful with severe gaps.

Some suggestions, mostly in Durham, from me:

1: Crook terminator extended to Stanhope via 101 route, 101 scrapped
6: Extended to Barnard Castle from Cockfield hourly, 85 scrapped
25/725: Merged to restore old route.
56: Upped to 2 BPH throughout and Sunday / evening service restored
X46: Extended to Stanhope every hour via it's one a day extension.
X46: Extended to Newcastle every hour and combined with X12 for 2 BPH.
N/A: Sedgefield to Newton Aycliffe, unsure on this one.

New direct links formed:
Barnard Castle to Durham
Stanhope / Tow Law to Durham
Langley Park to Newcastle
Crook to Newcastle
Darlington / Shildon to Stanhope

The return of the X46 is a blast from the past!

(11 Feb 2024, 9:38 pm)Ambassador wrote The return of the X46 is a blast from the past!

Aye you're right there mind. Seems a good route for BSIP to me, even if it meant binning the silly 21 extension off on a route which has timetable issues, as an understatement.

I'd invest in time and money to identify where the flows of traffic were at various times of the day, offer a service which stepped away from the traditional and look at how it could flex across the day to suit demand. 

As an example:
Reduced morning peak 21 via core route. 
Offer a '21P' which covered the bulk of the core route, but diverted via Team Valley. 
This balance would change over the course of the day, with the TVTE service reducing in frequency, but the core 21 increasing.

Reversing for the evening peak, with the majority of the PVR switching back towards TVTE. 

The old fashioned system of chucking resource on a concentrated corridor of City Centre services via slowly dying high streets in Chester, Birtley, Low Fell or Gateshead has long gone.
The numbers of people shopping or working in those High Streets have dropped massively. And they certainly don't live on them. I'd hazard a guess they don't want to get on a bus, to stand on a High Street, to then get on another bus to pass through more dead High Streets to then change on to another bus to get to where they're actually working. 

I'd also look at putting the spanner in the hub and spoke model once and for all too. 

But ultimately, whatever routes exist or come about, they need to differ from the network we have now.
It's not working.

Reinstating the GNE 62 would be a massive good use of BSIP money imo. Get rid of the stupid bit of the 61 doing a full loop around Murton as well as serving the Wembley estate, hell even send it back to Station Town making it an extended version of the old 202. Instead of increasing frequencies of already profitable routes, how about actually make services better?

Stop giving cash out like confetti, for operators to run services they should be running commercially.

It's a partnership after all, isn't it?

(12 Feb 2024, 5:22 pm)Adrian wrote Stop giving cash out like confetti, for operators to run services they should be running commercially.

It's a partnership after all, isn't it?

It’s worth noting that operators have to declare the amount of revenue taken to the Local Authority, where a commercial service has been enhanced in frequency or in terms of span of operation.

If these services are commercially viable, then the Local Authorities won’t be parting with any BSIP subsidy.

If they aren’t, then the subsidy covers the difference, until the point at which the service becomes commercially viable.

This is a good - and hopefully sustainable - use of the funding.


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Genuine Q Dan

I never knew that so as a member of the public it looks like chucking money as you have seen on this forum

Does this mean that it is FOI available if asked for the info like nexus secured services are?

Hartlepool.
Put the 6/7 back to every 20 minutes on a Sunday.
Service 12 and 15 brought back.
36 put back to every 15 minutes with two an hour going via North Tees Hospital instead of Teesside Park.

(12 Feb 2024, 11:50 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Genuine Q Dan

I never knew that so as a member of the public it looks like chucking money  as you have seen on this forum

Does this mean that it is FOI available if asked for the info like nexus secured services are?

Any FOI would only tell you a £number and some specification details for what Nexus are paying operators to do (in respect of tenders, agreements, BSIP improvements).

It won't include any other information, such as how much revenue a service may already be carrying, as that is commercially sensitive (even though Nexus may know it).

Bus operators are generally private companies, FOI doesn't apply to private companies or their data.

(12 Feb 2024, 6:01 pm)Dan wrote It’s worth noting that operators have to declare the amount of revenue taken to the Local Authority, where a commercial service has been enhanced in frequency or in terms of span of operation.

If these services are commercially viable, then the Local Authorities won’t be parting with any BSIP subsidy.

If they aren’t, then the subsidy covers the difference, until the point at which the service becomes commercially viable.

This is a good - and hopefully sustainable - use of the funding.


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It's a high-risk strategy imo. If the demand were there and it was zero or minimal risk, I'd imagine operators would be increasing the frequency anyway?

If it eventually becomes commercially viable, does the operator pay any of the previous subsidy back into the system to be reinvested?

(13 Feb 2024, 7:02 pm)RobinHood wrote Any FOI would only tell you a £number and some specification details for what Nexus are paying operators to do (in respect of tenders, agreements, BSIP improvements).

It won't include any other information, such as how much revenue a service may already be carrying, as that is commercially sensitive (even though Nexus may know it).

Bus operators are generally private companies, FOI doesn't apply to private companies or their data.

It's worth noting that section 43 exemptions are subject to a public interest test. So, if you can make a good enough argument to Nexus, they could well have to release the revenue data.

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(13 Feb 2024, 8:01 pm)Adrian wrote It's worth noting that section 43 exemptions are subject to a public interest test. So, if you can make a good enough argument to Nexus, they could well have to release the revenue data.

I'm not sure it would ever pass this test though, given the data is technically not Nexus' data, they are just aware of it, plus it is current data (i.e relevant to the current financial year or a year that hasn't even made it's way onto companies house yet in terms of an operators accounts for example)

Perhaps asking the same question a year or two later, may provide a different view, but anyone randomly asking Nexus for this information, today, is unlikely to get it.

Most local authorities in the region have already signed NDA's in order to obtain data to calculate reimbursement for the be tickets, so NDA would certainly trump FOI at the moment.

(13 Feb 2024, 8:01 pm)Adrian wrote It's a high-risk strategy imo. If the demand were there and it was zero or minimal risk, I'd imagine operators would be increasing the frequency anyway?

If it eventually becomes commercially viable, does the operator pay any of the previous subsidy back into the system to be reinvested?

The 56 one is the most baffling one to me, surely there's not people about who think well I'm not using the 56 it's only every 15 minutes. Oh hang on, it's now every 12 minutes now I'm definitely using that.

Do people really care about those 3 minutes? I can understand the argument on an hourly service which is unusable pretty much for most people though.

(13 Feb 2024, 9:38 pm)Storx wrote The 56 one is the most baffling one to me, surely there's not people about who think well I'm not using the 56 it's only every 15 minutes. Oh hang on, it's now every 12 minutes now I'm definitely using that.

Do people really care about those 3 minutes? I can understand the argument on an hourly service which is unusable pretty much for most people though.

A change in frequency can and does have an impact upon patronage, even one as minor as an increase from 4 buses an hour to 5. Just in the same way that increasing a bus fare by 5-10p also has an impact.

Likewise there would have been a reduction in patronage when the service dropped from every 10 to every 12, then from every 12 to every 15.

Of course, adding 3 PVR is a significant investment, so continued marketing activity is crucial to deliver the growth in patronage required to generate the additional revenue.

I find it truly baffling that the operators and Local Authorities are facing criticism for improvements being made to the network. The comments about using the BSIP funding to start from afresh and try something new are completely fair and I don’t disagree (though I can understand reluctance as it will be difficult to prove sustainability), but I really don’t think the criticism for increasing frequencies on their existing network is fair. Hopefully they are sustainable and there is no need for a cliff edge once the funding is no longer available to be spent.


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(13 Feb 2024, 10:04 pm)Dan wrote A change in frequency can and does have an impact upon patronage, even one as minor as an increase from 4 buses an hour to 5. Just in the same way that increasing a bus fare by 5-10p also has an impact.

Likewise there would have been a reduction in patronage when the service dropped from every 10 to every 12, then from every 12 to every 15.

Of course, adding 3 PVR is a significant investment, so continued marketing activity is crucial to deliver the growth in patronage required to generate the additional revenue.

I find it truly baffling that the operators and Local Authorities are facing criticism for improvements being made to the network. The comments about using the BSIP funding to start from afresh and try something new are completely fair and I don’t disagree (though I can understand reluctance as it will be difficult to prove sustainability), but I really don’t think the criticism for increasing frequencies on their existing network is fair. Hopefully they are sustainable and there is no need for a cliff edge once the funding is no longer available to be spent.


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I understand your points, but personally I'd rather see this money on long term fixes. So instead spending money on forcing a frequency, go for the opposite option and reduce the journey times which naturally reduces the PVR.

Like in the other thread where we we're talking about the X7/X8 big issues, I'd rather see the money spend on investing in a bus lane from South Gosforth to Blue House Roundabout, or at least as far as they could, this would be better money spent as no doubt the changes on the 352-355 are all relating to same problems, noticed they were all over the place again tonight aswell. Similar with a bus gate at Peter Barratts, but this side of the BSIP has just vanished.

I don't know the 56 route, that well - but I'm sure there's places like Wrekenton where similar money could be spent, a bus would be much more attractive if it passed you on the road. It's not very attractive if you're parked behind it - regardless to frequency.

Obviously local and national government are more interesting about shoving cycle lanes in everywhere to carry fresh air, making public transport even worse in the process. Rake Lane in North Tyneside being a prime example of that, another place where a bus lane could've been built instead.

(13 Feb 2024, 10:04 pm)Dan wrote Hopefully they are sustainable and there is no need for a cliff edge once the funding is no longer available to be spent.

Track records would suggest otherwise - there's something of a familiar pattern which tends to repeat itself that when any of this kick start type funding dries up or looks set to, operators don't hesitate in slashing frequencies, severing connections and in some cases abandoning entire services.  Not only GNE by any means, though they have arguably been the most blatant in recent years ("Fit for the future", anyone?)

I definitely don't think this money should be spent on increasing frequencies, bringing links back and trying new stuff yes. But the fact the 56 runs 22 hours of the day to me shows that it's a fairly profitable route as it is. You'd hope that improvement of services started at the bottom rather than the top, but I guess that's just a personal opinion.

(13 Feb 2024, 10:45 pm)Storx wrote I understand your points, but personally I'd rather see this money on long term fixes. So instead spending money on forcing a frequency, go for the opposite option and reduce the journey times which naturally reduces the PVR.

Like in the other thread where we we're talking about the X7/X8 big issues, I'd rather see the money spend on investing in a bus lane from South Gosforth to Blue House Roundabout, or at least as far as they could, this would be better money spent as no doubt the changes on the 352-355 are all relating to same problems, noticed they were all over the place again tonight aswell. Similar with a bus gate at Peter Barratts, but this side of the BSIP has just vanished.

I don't know the 56 route, that well - but I'm sure there's places like Wrekenton where similar money could be spent, a bus would be much more attractive if it passed you on the road. It's not very attractive if you're parked behind it - regardless to frequency.

Obviously local and national government are more interesting about shoving cycle lanes in everywhere to carry fresh air, making public transport even worse in the process. Rake Lane in North Tyneside being a prime example of that, another place where a bus lane could've been built instead.

The funding is divided into three different categories: fares and ticketing, network and highways and infrastructure.

All combined, this is a powerful combination to deliver sustainable growth - it isn’t a case of just choosing one of these categories.

It’s worth having a read of the TNE BSIP document:
https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...23-WEB.pdf


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(14 Feb 2024, 6:31 am)Dan wrote The funding is divided into three different categories: fares and ticketing, network and highways and infrastructure.

All combined, this is a powerful combination to deliver sustainable growth - it isn’t a case of just choosing one of these categories.

It’s worth having a read of the TNE BSIP document:
https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...23-WEB.pdf


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I'll have to have another look through, seems it's been finalised since the last time I had a flick through, remember most the infrastruture was obsessing about pointless bus stations. No doubt, not changed.

Some suggestions based on the current discussions

- X30/X31 re-extended to Lanchester.....or maybe X32 and restores some of the lost Gateshead links from West Stanley previously had by daytime X72

- X73 later evening and Sunday service, Stanley to MetroCentre only

- Newcastle to Morpeth (X14/X15/X16/X18) - full half hourly evening service until late

- X18 - 2228 ex Newcastle extended to Alnwick, 2328 ex Newcastle extended to Morpeth

- 35 (ANms) - Frequency increased to half hourly evenings & Sundays.....either full route or Ashington to Morpeth only

- 43 - later journey ex Newcastle Mon-Sat at 2345, with 44 re-timed 10 minutes earlier at 2325

- Peak time X70/X71 journeys extended to / from Blackhill

- 353 restored to 30 minute frequency.....possible extension to Morpeth in place of the 43 to help with PVR of new EV fleet?

- 37 re-routed via NSECH

- Half hourly 604 re-instated in place  of 10B.....10 & 10A run combined 15 minute frequency

- Regular Northumberland 'RailLink' minibuses established to connect areas not within close proximity to Rail / Metro services

- Half hourly X38 introduced running alongside existing 308 & 309

- 725 full route to Newcastle restored, or extension of 21 to Langley Park / Waldridge Park

(11 Aug 2024, 8:21 pm)L469 YVK wrote - Newcastle to Morpeth (X14/X15/X16/X18) - full half hourly evening service until late

I'm relatively surprised this wasn't included in the September X16 changes. 

Since Morpeth to Longframlington is a sector, and a round trip on that would be doable in the 43 mins you'd have available between Newcastle to Morpeth stints, you could significantly improve the service to Northgate, Longhorsley, and Longframlington as well as the Morpeth to Newcastle corridor. It would need 2 buses anyway, may as well use them rather than having them sitting around for three quarters of an hour.

(11 Aug 2024, 8:58 pm)PH - BQA wrote I'm relatively surprised this wasn't included in the September X16 changes. 

Since Morpeth to Longframlington is a sector, and a round trip on that would be doable in the 43 mins you'd have available between Newcastle to Morpeth stints, you could significantly improve the service to Northgate, Longhorsley, and Longframlington as well as the Morpeth to Newcastle corridor. It would need 2 buses anyway, may as well use them rather than having them sitting around for three quarters of an hour.

I know it's more buses but personally I'd look at X15 changes personally.

Have the buses as something like

17:53 -> Alnwick
18:58 -> Berwick
19:58 -> Alnwick
20:58 -> Alnwick
21:58 -> Alnwick

06:25, Belford to Newcastle (extend 6.52 service)
21:25, Berwick to Morpeth

Would open new links and mean people who live in Belford can actually get to work / education, if they wanted to.

Means you'd have a 30 minute service to Morpeth until 22:28.

----

For other Northumberland changes run both the 57/57A in an evening with the stupid Whitley Bay to North Shields routing binned off. Stakeford, Nelson Ind Estate and East Cramlington currently have no bus service at all.

Mind if Arriva, Nexus and NCC could work together something like this would be better imo:


As:

19: Withdrawn
57: Ashington - Stakeford - Bedlington - Nelson Ind Estate - Cramlington - East Cramlington Hospital - Seaton Delaval - Earsdon - Whitley Bay
57A: Ashington - Stakeford - Bedlington - Nelson Ind Estate - Cramlington - Annitsford - Seghill - Seaton Delaval - Earsdon - Whitley Bay
58: Ashington - Bedlington Station - Cramlington - East Cramlington Hospital - New Hartley - Seaton Delaval - Seghill - Backworth - Cobalt - North Shields

57/57A - PVR 5 (Every 30 Minutes Combined)
58 - PVR 3 (Every hour, shorts scrapped)

Evenings / Sundays
57A/58 Run

It would open loads of new links and pretty much ensure that every street in SE Northumberland would have a bus service (ignoring 434 stops) which are currently missing atm, East Cramlington etc. Whether there's a short 58(19) still, is upto Nexus.

Other ones.

- 2215 and 2315 X21 (GNE) ex Newcastle to Bishop Auckland Mon-Sat

- 2220 X10 (GNE) ex Newcastle to M.Boro

I think if I was applying for BSIP, I'd start with something simple rather than going the wholescale network changes as some suggest in this thread.

So, for starters, I would try and do something with the 67/69, a largely, by all accounts, unprofitable service linking together a string of communities across the width and breadth of Gateshead. A vital link, for some, but commercially unviable without funding from Nexus. In the last tranche of changes in July, the Q.E. to Wardley section was to be withdrawn with the service curtailed at the Q.E. with the 57 picking up the slack in Wardley to provide the lost link. Presuming the 57 performs the same function as intended in those changes, I'd divert the 67/69 away from Wardley completely, instead from Meresyde diverting down Lingley Lane and into Follingsby Park to terminate at Amazon. This would provide a one-bus link (to combat a prevailing trend in another thread suggesting workers don't want to spend time in bus stations waiting to connect to other services) between Amazon/Follingsby Park to communities across Gateshead, without the need of travelling to Heworth Metro first.

Stagecoach should ask for funding for a later journey(s) on the X24, after 9pm or later, as every time I've used it on a Saturday, the last X24 at 20:10pm is always busy.

(Yesterday, 7:37 pm)Michael wrote Stagecoach should ask for funding for a later journey(s) on the X24, after 9pm or later, as every time I've used it on a Saturday, the last X24 at 20:10pm is always busy.

That wouldn't be a bad shout!

Newcastle BSIP Improvements Ideas

• Go North East Services 352/354/355 Withdrawn as routes duplicated by Stagecoach's 37/38 & 62/63 and Arriva X7/X8, Stagecoach X63 extended from Killingworth to Whitley Bay replacing the 354, Service X63 would remain operated by Stagecoach.
  
• Stagecoach North East Services X24/X34 have an Evening & Sunday timetable introduced, both services would operate Hourly.
  
• Arriva North East Service 47 & Go North East Service "H" merged together to form one route with a frequency of Every 20 Minutes connecting Newcastle General, RVI & Freeman Hospital, service would no longer be NHS Staff Only and the public would be allowed to use the service also by showing proof of Hospital Appointment for free, Service would be Re-Tendered.
  
• Additional Outbound & Return Journey's on Peter Hogg's X74 leaving Jedburgh at 12:13 and Newcastle at 15:30.
  
• Go North East Service 684 and Stagecoach Service X82 merged together to provide a Service 30 Minutes from Newcastle to Hexham Monday to Saturday, Go North East Service 684 Withdrawn, Stagecoach 685 still operates Sunday shorts as it does now, Service would be Re-Tendered. 
  
• Go North East Service 1 Whitley Bay - Newcastle merged with Stagecoach North East Service 22, Existing Service 22 would continue to operate Throckley - Newcastle - Wallsend - Cobalt Every 20 Minutes, Go North East Service 1 would be re-numbered 23 and operate Every 20 Minutes to Throckley - Newcastle - Wallsend - Whitley Bay, operation would pass to Stagecoach North East. 
  
• Go North East Service 1 MetroCentre - Gateshead - Newcastle would merge with Go North East Service 307 maintaining existing frequencies of both Services.
  
• Stagecoach North East 32/32A extended from Walkergate via Wallsend and merged with Go North East Service 41/41A to Hadrian Park providing improved Cross-City-Connections accross North Tyneside, alternatively Stagecoach Service 40 would merge with Go North East 41/41A, operation would pass to Stagecoach North East.
  
• Go North East Drivers made available from above changes would transfer depots to support frequency increases to Go North East Services that were decreased during Covid-19 and have not returned back to them and remain operating at an unsustainable and unreliable "Minimum Service Level", would also have option to transfer to Stagecoach due changes of services at Percy Main Depot. 
  

(Yesterday, 9:34 pm)Malarkey wrote Newcastle BSIP Improvements Ideas

• Go North East Services 352/354/355 Withdrawn as routes duplicated by Stagecoach's 37/38 & 62/63 and Arriva X7/X8, Stagecoach X63 extended from Killingworth to Whitley Bay replacing the 354, Service X63 would remain operated by Stagecoach.
  
• Stagecoach North East Services X24/X34 have an Evening & Sunday timetable introduced, both services would operate Hourly.
  
• Arriva North East Service 47 & Go North East Service "H" merged together to form one route with a frequency of Every 20 Minutes connecting Newcastle General, RVI & Freeman Hospital, service would no longer be NHS Staff Only and the public would be allowed to use the service also by showing proof of Hospital Appointment for free, Service would be Re-Tendered.
  
• Additional Outbound & Return Journey's on Peter Hogg's X74 leaving Jedburgh at 12:13 and Newcastle at 15:30.
  
• Go North East Service 684 and Stagecoach Service X82 merged together to provide a Service 30 Minutes from Newcastle to Hexham Monday to Saturday, Go North East Service 684 Withdrawn, Stagecoach 685 still operates Sunday shorts as it does now, Service would be Re-Tendered. 
  
• Go North East Service 1 Whitley Bay - Newcastle merged with Stagecoach North East Service 22, Existing Service 22 would continue to operate Throckley - Newcastle - Wallsend - Cobalt Every 20 Minutes, Go North East Service 1 would be re-numbered 23 and operate Every 20 Minutes to Throckley - Newcastle - Wallsend - Whitley Bay, operation would pass to Stagecoach North East. 
  
• Go North East Service 1 MetroCentre - Gateshead - Newcastle would merge with Go North East Service 307 maintaining existing frequencies of both Services.
  
• Stagecoach North East 32/32A extended from Walkergate via Wallsend and merged with Go North East Service 41/41A to Hadrian Park providing improved Cross-City-Connections accross North Tyneside, alternatively Stagecoach Service 40 would merge with Go North East 41/41A, operation would pass to Stagecoach North East.
  
• Go North East Drivers made available from above changes would transfer depots to support frequency increases to Go North East Services that were decreased during Covid-19 and have not returned back to them and remain operating at an unsustainable and unreliable "Minimum Service Level", would also have option to transfer to Stagecoach due changes of services at Percy Main Depot. 
  

Personally don't agree with some of these, especially the X63

On those I'd say:
352: Withdrawn
353: North Shields to Killingworth only, Every 30 Minutes
354: Newcastle to Killingworth only
355: Replaced by 57
22: Throckley to Cobalt, Every 15 Minutes
23: Throckley to Whitley Bay, Every 15 Minutes
37: Cramlington to Denton Burn, Every 20 Minutes
38: Freeman Hospital to Denton Burn, Every 20 Minutes
38: Extensions to Forest Hall, withdrawn
57: Forest Hall - Newcastle - Wardley, Every 20 Minutes
96: Newcastle to Metrocentre, Every 20 Minutes
97: Newcastle to Whickham, Every 20 Minutes

22/23: Every 7.5 Minutes Combined - let's try and grow something 

Going more off a tangent

X7: Newcastle - Quorum - Killingworth - Backworth - Seghill - Seaton Delaval - New Hartley - Seaton Sluice - Blyth (Every 20 Minutes)
X8: Newcastle - Quorum - Burradon - Annitsford - High Pit - Cramlington (Every 20 Minutes)
X63: Withdrawn
41: Cramlington - Newsham Station - Sandringham Drive - South Beach - Amersham Road - Blyth (Every 30 Minutes, Ran with Midibuses)
42: Morpeth - Nedderton - Bedlington - Cramlington (Every 30 Minutes, interwork with above)
43: Curtailed at Cramlington

X7/X8: Every 10 Minutes, Newcastle to Quorum

X7 Route for clarification: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.02290...?entry=ttu

These are assuming franchising (for obvious reasons).

Mind the X7/X8/41/42/X63 changes probably wouldn't be the end of the world regardless and could be a way to save the routes if the train did cause problems even if Stagecoach ended up running the X7/X8

The X24/X34 already run hourly on a Sunday although both start around 10am and finish between 5/6pm... would be nice for a few later runs to be added on to the Sunday timetable.


As i said before, I would like more late runs on the X24, even if just on a Friday and Saturday.

My suggestion would be the old Sunderland to Newcastle X36 via the north estates in Sunderland reintroduced but operated by Stagecoach to fit in with their existing network around those areas. Potentially an X14 or X44.