Seeing reports on a Facebook post that the ex-London dual door E400s are leaving wheelchair passengers at bus stations due to the ramp being on the centre doors still - and therefore the wheelchair users can't access it.

If this is correct, how is this acceptable?

(14 Jun 2024, 11:00 pm)mb134 wrote Seeing reports on a Facebook post that the ex-London dual door E400s are leaving wheelchair passengers at bus stations due to the ramp being on the centre doors still - and therefore the wheelchair users can't access it.

If this is correct, how is this acceptable?

 Absolutely disgusting by gne if that's. Happing  I actually feel sorry for those who are in wheelchair   because it's not there fault   I would of thought a few complaints will have gone in

(14 Jun 2024, 11:00 pm)mb134 wrote Seeing reports on a Facebook post that the ex-London dual door E400s are leaving wheelchair passengers at bus stations due to the ramp being on the centre doors still - and therefore the wheelchair users can't access it.

If this is correct, how is this acceptable?

I don’t understand why they don’t just use the dual doors. I understand that at some stops it may not be possible due to the length of the raised curb etc, but surely in a situation like that or for quicker boarding at high capacity stops like bus stations (where its not front boarding like Gateshead) they should just use them? It would make total sense.

(15 Jun 2024, 2:14 am)ALavery wrote I don’t understand why they don’t just use the dual doors. I understand that at some stops it may not be possible due to the length of the raised curb etc, but surely in a situation like that or for quicker boarding at high capacity stops like bus stations (where its not front boarding like Gateshead) they should just use them? It would make total sense.

You can't use the middle door at all at certain bus stations aka. Durham, Eldon Square and Consett, which are no doubt the problem stations here, because the middle door is in the middle of the road. 

If I know disability laws it's a legal matter nevermind poor service unless they provide an alternative and being told to wait for the next bus isn't that alternative

It's also not really quicker as it's confusing for most people. They shouldn't be in service full stop imo.

(15 Jun 2024, 6:24 am)Storx wrote You can't use the middle door at all at certain bus stations aka. Durham, Eldon Square and Consett, which are no doubt the problem stations here, because the middle door is in the middle of the road. 

If I know disability laws it's a legal matter nevermind poor service unless they provide an alternative and being told to wait for the next bus isn't that alternative

It's also not really quicker as it's confusing for most people. They shouldn't be in service full stop imo.

It would be quicker and less confusing if GNE used the centre exits whenever possible. GNE is causing the confusion, and frankly unnecessary inconvenience. 
I’ve lost count the number of times drivers have made us squeeze all the way to the front on a packed bus to alight, when the centre exit doors could’ve been used.

Nevertheless, the issue of wheelchair passengers being left behind at the bus stations which can only accommodate front door boarding, is not acceptable. 
Why weren’t ramps fitted to the front doors of the E400 dual doors, before their entered service? Surely that would’ve been cheaper than say the cost they went to convert each of the dual door B9s to single door.

(14 Jun 2024, 11:00 pm)mb134 wrote Seeing reports on a Facebook post that the ex-London dual door E400s are leaving wheelchair passengers at bus stations due to the ramp being on the centre doors still - and therefore the wheelchair users can't access it.

If this is correct, how is this acceptable?

I've been with my mum when it's happened to us and it's frustrating as I never put the blame on the driver it's always GNEs fault for allowing the buses in the first place. We are pretty reasonable people but for us when the electric ramp at the middle doors didn't work it's very frustrating as we are then wishing the older buses which were more accessible came back. I can imagine that if this continues GNE will be having quite the legal battle on their hands as it has effected so many people.

(15 Jun 2024, 9:11 am)d9817362 wrote I've been with my mum when it's happened to us and it's frustrating as I never put the blame on the driver it's always GNEs fault for allowing the buses in the first place. We are pretty reasonable people but for us when the electric ramp at the middle doors didn't work it's very frustrating as we are then wishing the older buses which were more accessible came back. I can imagine that if this continues GNE will be having quite the legal battle on their hands as it has effected so many people.

I believe that some of the 69xx E400 are being converted to single doorway.

(15 Jun 2024, 8:38 am)ne14ne1 wrote It would be quicker and less confusing if GNE used the centre exits whenever possible. GNE is causing the confusion, and frankly unnecessary inconvenience. 
I’ve lost count the number of times drivers have made us squeeze all the way to the front on a packed bus to alight, when the centre exit doors could’ve been used.

Nevertheless, the issue of wheelchair passengers being left behind at the bus stations which can only accommodate front door boarding, is not acceptable. 
Why weren’t ramps fitted to the front doors of the E400 dual doors, before their entered service? Surely that would’ve been cheaper than say the cost they went to convert each of the dual door B9s to single door.

The problem is though is that people don't know which doors are which so you'll have people standing there gormless waiting for the door to open when it never will.

I don't believe the dual doors were actually meant to be in service though and were meant to be for the schools but for whatever reason they're now doing daily work. You have to reconfigure the downstairs though to move it to the front door as there's not enough space because of the different layout.

(15 Jun 2024, 10:38 am)busmanT wrote I believe that some of the 69xx E400 are being converted to single doorway.

They are The Durham Diamond, (6232 , onwards)
These are coming converted, four are already here

(15 Jun 2024, 10:38 am)busmanT wrote I believe that some of the 69xx E400 are being converted to single doorway.

Shouldn't they have been converted prior to use on service work? The company have essentially been actively discriminating against wheelchair-bound customers for close to 2 years at this point.

(15 Jun 2024, 1:15 pm)mb134 wrote Shouldn't they have been converted prior to use on service work? The company have essentially been actively discriminating against wheelchair-bound customers for close to 2 years at this point.

i was on a GNE bus a while bacck when a W/c user who lived in my street tried to get on but the ramp didn't work.  the driver went  on his phone/radio and granted i didn't hear the whole conversation but the bus left with out them and by the time I got home they were just getting out of a Wheelchair accessible taxi ( they as in w/c user and person with them) and all the shopping at there door whilst i walked from the bus stop in the driving wind. Didn't sound like discrimination in that case!

(15 Jun 2024, 1:30 pm)Rob44 wrote i was on a GNE bus a while bacck when a W/c user who lived in my street tried to get on but the ramp didn't work.  the driver went  on his phone/radio and granted i didn't hear the whole conversation but the bus left with out them and by the time I got home they were just getting out of a Wheelchair accessible taxi ( they as in w/c user and person with them) and all the shopping at there door whilst i walked from the bus stop in the driving wind. Didn't sound like discrimination in that case!

The issue is that response shouldn't be required, and wheelchair users should be able to board buses. Obviously a broken ramp is slightly different (provided it was checked and worked on a first use inspection, and the defect happened in service), but the reports on here and elsewhere indicate that GNE have been knowingly sending out vehicles that cannot safely board wheelchair users at various bus stations, due to the centre door position of the ramp.

(15 Jun 2024, 1:37 pm)mb134 wrote The issue is that response shouldn't be required, and wheelchair users should be able to board buses. Obviously a broken ramp is slightly different (provided it was checked and worked on a first use inspection, and the defect happened in service), but the reports on here and elsewhere indicate that GNE have been knowingly sending out vehicles that cannot safely board wheelchair users at various bus stations, due to the centre door position of the ramp.

But surely if this happens a taxi should be sourced so the customer can get to where they are going?  Would it be better if no bus turned up at all?  Are GNE sending out these half arsed buses but keeping the good ones that could be sent out at the depot?  Also what's the crack if a w/c user is already on the bus, does the w/c user waiting to get on have to wait for the next one?

(15 Jun 2024, 1:44 pm)Rob44 wrote But surely if this happens a taxi should be sourced so the customer can get to where they are going?  Would it be better if no bus turned up at all?  Are GNE sending out these half arsed buses but keeping the good ones that could be sent out at the depot?  Also what's the crack if a w/c user is already on the bus, does the w/c user waiting to get on have to wait for the next one?

That's not the point though. If they're waiting for a bus they're likely going somewhere, and then having to wait for a taxi to be sourced is a massive inconvenience. Equally, individuals in wheelchairs are vulnerable and we shouldn't be accepting "oh, but they'll get them a taxi" as an acceptable solution to the penny pinching attitude of a multi-national corporation. 

Not being able to use the bus because another wheelchair user is already using it is unfortunate, but is a completely different situation.

(15 Jun 2024, 8:38 am)ne14ne1 wrote It would be quicker and less confusing if GNE used the centre exits whenever possible. GNE is causing the confusion, and frankly unnecessary inconvenience. 
I’ve lost count the number of times drivers have made us squeeze all the way to the front on a packed bus to alight, when the centre exit doors could’ve been used.

That would be true if the centre door was used at all stops and all buses had a centre door.

You're forgetting nearly everyone who uses the bus is a cluless, self-centred moron. It would just cause more issues.

(15 Jun 2024, 1:44 pm)Rob44 wrote But surely if this happens a taxi should be sourced so the customer can get to where they are going?  Would it be better if no bus turned up at all?  Are GNE sending out these half arsed buses but keeping the good ones that could be sent out at the depot?  Also what's the crack if a w/c user is already on the bus, does the w/c user waiting to get on have to wait for the next one?

The issue is that the fully accessible buses are not being properly maintained, which is why so many are off the road. That can't just be down to lack of parts, at this point, if older buses, new to GNE, are fully functioning.

(15 Jun 2024, 7:54 pm)BusLoverMum wrote The issue is that the fully accessible buses are not being properly maintained, which is why so many are off the road. That can't just be down to lack of parts, at this point, if older buses, new to GNE, are fully functioning.

Believe it's more due the massive delays of the Enviro's for the 16/16A and whatever is meant to be on the X5/X15 (I actually don't know). They pretty much withdrew 15 buses at Consett with absolutely no replacement and bar the 4 or so which are finally in service, still no replacement.

I assume it's Durham, Newcastle Eldon Square and Consett where most the problems are.

(15 Jun 2024, 8:23 pm)Storx wrote Believe it's more due the massive delays of the Enviro's for the 16/16A and whatever is meant to be on the X5/X15 (I actually don't know). They pretty much withdrew 15 buses at Consett with absolutely no replacement and bar the 4 or so which are finally in service, still no replacement.

I assume it's Durham, Newcastle Eldon Square and Consett where most the problems are.

This has nothing to do with the 16/16A. The Hybrids at Consett were replaced by a myriad of Volvo B9s, largely released following the return of the E200MMCs from Go North West (now on the 6, which had previously been operated by Volvo B9s). Consett have more spare buses, on paper, than they’ve ever had before (which, as well as cost issues with holding an excess number of spare buses, just puts pressure on strained engineering teams to maintain additional buses which they shouldn’t have).

Riverside and Consett just have high VOR levels which is resulting in the dual-door buses being used on frontline work instead of scholars as intended.

The main issue is that engineering teams are firefighting and don’t have the capacity to arrange vehicle changeovers once VOR levels reduce during the day, meaning buses which shouldn’t be allocated to certain routes are remaining out on those routes all day (and often all night).

Of course, as well as accessibility issues which have been discussed here, there are huge hidden costs associated with running older and/or more fuel-hungry buses all night long (often on contracts which weren’t costed based on fuel-hungry buses), penalty payments for not adhering to contract specification, loss of additional 6p/km BSOG on certain vehicle types… The list goes on.

Correct vehicle allocation ought to be a priority of the business as part of cost control measures, but I fear there is a deeply engraved mentality across all levels of the business which thinks this is just about having the right coloured bus on the right route, and there are very few people left at Go North East these days attempting to challenge that perception to improve profitability of the business.


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(15 Jun 2024, 1:15 pm)mb134 wrote Shouldn't they have been converted prior to use on service work? The company have essentially been actively discriminating against wheelchair-bound customers for close to 2 years at this point.

This has been an issue for quite a while at GNE with all the cast offs they've gotten from down south over the years where they've just left the ramps at the centre doors on the likes of the B7TLs, the line "exclusively used on schools/contracts" has rarely ever been just that, boiled my guts to learn things like that the official allocation to a peak time X21 from Newcastle at one stage was an ex London B7TL Gemini, don't see where anyone who is wheelchair bound should be made to wait longer cos someone thought "yeah that's fine!" and made no thought beyond that (fortunately it was rarely actually what turned up)

(15 Jun 2024, 9:09 pm)Dan wrote This has nothing to do with the 16/16A. The Hybrids at Consett were replaced by a myriad of Volvo B9s, largely released following the return of the E200MMCs from Go North West (now on the 6, which had previously been operated by Volvo B9s). Consett have more spare buses, on paper, than they’ve ever had before (which, as well as cost issues with holding an excess number of spare buses, just puts pressure on strained engineering teams to maintain additional buses which they shouldn’t have).

Riverside and Consett just have high VOR levels which is resulting in the dual-door buses being used on frontline work instead of scholars as intended.

The main issue is that engineering teams are firefighting and don’t have the capacity to arrange vehicle changeovers once VOR levels reduce during the day, meaning buses which shouldn’t be allocated to certain routes are remaining out on those routes all day (and often all night).

Of course, as well as accessibility issues which have been discussed here, there are huge hidden costs associated with running older and/or more fuel-hungry buses all night long (often on contracts which weren’t costed based on fuel-hungry buses), penalty payments for not adhering to contract specification, loss of additional 6p/km BSOG on certain vehicle types… The list goes on.

Correct vehicle allocation ought to be a priority of the business as part of cost control measures, but I fear there is a deeply engraved mentality across all levels of the business which thinks this is just about having the right coloured bus on the right route, and there are very few people left at Go North East these days attempting to challenge that perception to improve profitability of the business.


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Thanks for that, I always thought the Manchester B9's were all just reserve but guessing they're not. I've completely lost track on what is supposed to be on what at Consett.

Personally I don't really understand the point at rebranding stuff at all nowadays. It's pretty much obvious that franchising or some form of public service is going to be coming in soon in the future so it's just a complete waste of money if you ask me.

I know it's probably not the right attitude but personally I'd be doing the bare minimum in terms of fleet renewal and fleet upgrades and like you said doing everything to squeeze every penny out of it, no point spending large sums on stuff you might not be running at all in the very near future. Happy to be corrected, but I believe GoNorthEast is the only operating area which is under risk of franchising currently with GoAhead. I'd probably dare say it and throw every old bus from the rest of country up here aswell and make a nice sum when they get flogged off eventually.

That doesn't excuse the staff shortages and strikes mind.

No different to when the vykings used to get put on the 10s years back, at one point it got to the stage where I think we could refuse to run the route past the depot and demand a changeover or terminate the service. Asides from the fact most of them couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, and used to boil over when pushed.

(15 Jun 2024, 7:54 pm)BusLoverMum wrote The issue is that the fully accessible buses are not being properly maintained, which is why so many are off the road. That can't just be down to lack of parts, at this point, if older buses, new to GNE, are fully functioning.

I agree but my point is if GNE don't have anything else would you rather they ran nothing rather than run a bus with the doors and w/c ramp inn the Centre?

(16 Jun 2024, 6:48 am)Rob44 wrote I agree but my point is if GNE don't have anything else would you rather they ran nothing rather than run a bus with the doors and w/c ramp inn the Centre?

Of course they should run something but they should also be taking steps to not persistently fall foul of accessibility laws.

(16 Jun 2024, 3:49 am)xpm wrote No different to when the vykings used to get put on the 10s years back, at one point it got to the stage where I think we could refuse to run the route past the depot and demand a changeover or terminate the service.  Asides from the fact most of them couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding, and used to boil over when pushed.

It was before DDA wasn't it? I know it's not ideal for the passengers but don't believe it was illegal at the time.

(16 Jun 2024, 7:33 am)Storx wrote It was before DDA wasn't it? I know it's not ideal for the passengers but don't believe it was illegal at the time.

Suspect it will be technically legal now too if they claim unavoidable operational requirements and provide an alternative (i.e. free accessible taxi).  Quite a good advert for taxis to be fair, if you want to get anywhere use us not a bus.

(16 Jun 2024, 1:24 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Suspect it will be technically legal now too if they claim unavoidable operational requirements and provide an alternative (i.e. free accessible taxi).  Quite a good advert for taxis to be fair, if you want to get anywhere use us not a bus.

I'm curious now, if I had to be honest, it's definitely a grey area. Guess it depends how strict the DDA rules are and if they actually offer an alternative as I wouldn't be surprised if most just say wait for the next bus tbh.

(16 Jun 2024, 7:33 am)Storx wrote It was before DDA wasn't it? I know it's not ideal for the passengers but don't believe it was illegal at the time.

No it was definately after dad came in.

Any reason 6995/6 haven't been used (assuming tracking data is accurate) for the past couple of weeks?

Certainly every time I've seen a Toon Tour over the past fortnight it's been a Scania E400.

(16 Jun 2024, 6:04 pm)mb134 wrote Any reason 6995/6 haven't been used (assuming tracking data is accurate) for the past couple of weeks?

Certainly every time I've seen a Toon Tour over the past fortnight it's been a Scania E400.

Maybe down to the weather? 6995/6 have 0 roof where as the E400's have a partial roof.

(16 Jun 2024, 6:04 pm)mb134 wrote Any reason 6995/6 haven't been used (assuming tracking data is accurate) for the past couple of weeks?

Certainly every time I've seen a Toon Tour over the past fortnight it's been a Scania E400.

They are not euro6. They were finned for going into the CAZ. So have been temporarily withdrawn (from what I've been told). It's funny if true as they have a euro6 sticker on the back