(08 Mar 2014, 2:44 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Nobody said you could.

Looking at the bigger picture, 2-3 poor summers and the vehicles on the route start struggling due to age/mileage.
Those few passengers who are braving the elements of a typical British summer are then put off doing the trip, due to the vehicles becoming more and more unreliable and not turning up.

There has to be a point (and there will be) when ANE have to plump for new/er vehicles on the route - regardless of the weather.
You have to speculate to accumulate in some situations...

What do you think they've been doing the last 5 years!? Replaced the Coaches with 5 year old OmniCitys in 2010 then when they withdrew the X60/X61 trialled the E400s which were successful with the loadings. Last summer they moved permenantly to Whitby but they struggle to cope. Hence the trial of 7624 but without even trialling the B7TLs they've gone for those (7494 is now at Redcar, the originally intended 11 are now coming with 3 for Ashington, 6 for Whitby and 2 for Jesmond to replace the 2 DAFs moving across from Classic) as a stop-gap. Like said, last year the X93 is said to have made a 6 figure profit (which means they took £170k+ including running costs etc) so hopefully even with an increased summer PVR (they looking at using 8 vehicles this year I believe) plus the rumoured good weather will produce similar results.

(08 Mar 2014, 2:44 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Nobody said you could.

Looking at the bigger picture, 2-3 poor summers and the vehicles on the route start struggling due to age/mileage.
Those few passengers who are braving the elements of a typical British summer are then put off doing the trip, due to the vehicles becoming more and more unreliable and not turning up.

There has to be a point (and there will be) when ANE have to plump for new/er vehicles on the route - regardless of the weather.
You have to speculate to accumulate in some situations...

Lets not forget, whilst we all debate how poor Arriva are and give the company torrents of abuse for how poor they are in our eyes, it is only recently they have converted the X93 to double deck operation (on paper yes), which should have happened years ago, so that in itself shows signs of improvement. You cant raise a sinking ship in one day, as they say. Arriva are crawling back from a position of being one of the worst operators in the area and it takes a long time to get any confidence back.

(08 Mar 2014, 2:57 pm)Kuyoyo wrote What do you think they've been doing the last 5 years!? Replaced the Coaches with 5 year old OmniCitys in 2010 then when they withdrew the X60/X61 trialled the E400s which were successful with the loadings. Last summer they moved permenantly to Whitby but they struggle to cope. Hence the trial of 7624 but without even trialling the B7TLs they've gone for those (7494 is now at Redcar, the originally intended 11 are now coming with 3 for Ashington, 6 for Whitby and 2 for Jesmond to replace the 2 DAFs moving across from Classic) as a stop-gap. Like said, last year the X93 is said to have made a 6 figure profit (which means they took £170k+ including running costs etc) so hopefully even with an increased summer PVR (they looking at using 8 vehicles this year I believe) plus the rumoured good weather will produce similar results.

That's exactly my point!
Since the coaches went, we could probably count the decent summers we have had, on one finger!
Despite the rubbish summers, newer vehicles have been used on the service.

The service investment, isn't solely dependent on the weather, like I have said.

(08 Mar 2014, 3:06 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote That's exactly my point!
Since the coaches went, we could probably count the decent summers we have had, on one finger!
Despite the rubbish summers, newer vehicles have been used on the service.

The service investment, isn't solely dependent on the weather, like I have said.

Its quite easy to use newer vehicles that are already in fleet, compared to buying brand new, which does need the financial backing to ensure return on investment.

The fact Arriva (trying to) use newer vehicles suggests they see the value in the service, but cant quite create a good enough case for investment just yet.

(08 Mar 2014, 3:06 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote That's exactly my point!
Since the coaches went, we could probably count the decent summers we have had, on one finger!
Despite the rubbish summers, newer vehicles have been used on the service.

The service investment, isn't solely dependent on the weather, like I have said.

You can't buy new buses with fresh air, and we've had half decent summers in 2011/2, so it's not as simple as you seem to think. If this year turns out to be the same as last year then new vehicles will be ordered for next year. If not, they'll likely soruce better vehicles for next year. The income depends on the weather - and you need the income in order to make an investment so in a way, the weather is a factor in ordering new vehicles.

(08 Mar 2014, 3:11 pm)VolvoMarkII wrote Its quite easy to use newer vehicles that are already in fleet, compared to buying brand new, which does need the financial backing to ensure return on investment.

The fact Arriva (trying to) use newer vehicles suggests they see the value in the service, but cant quite create a good enough case for investment just yet.

Totally agree!

If there is indirect investment via a new purchase and vehicle displacement means the x93 gets newer vehicles, that can cope with the route and loadings - then everyone is a winner and shareholders aren't looking to the sky for blue clouds like they would be with direct investment.

(08 Mar 2014, 3:15 pm)Kuyoyo wrote You can't buy new buses with fresh air, and we've had half decent summers in 2011/2, so it's not as simple as you seem to think. If this year turns out to be the same as last year then new vehicles will be ordered for next year. If not, they'll likely soruce better vehicles for next year. The income depends on the weather - and you need the income in order to make an investment so in a way, the weather is a factor in ordering new vehicles.

I am not disputing the weather is a factor - I have agreed it is.
I also said that there are a number of other factors (hardly thinking along the lines of 'simple thinking' either...).

(08 Mar 2014, 3:18 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Totally agree!

If there is indirect investment via a new purchase and vehicle displacement means the x93 gets newer vehicles, that can cope with the route and loadings - then everyone is a winner and shareholders aren't looking to the sky for blue clouds like they would be with direct investment.

That's a valid point. However I think that even this year, the new stock arriving later in 2014 is not intending to displace anything different to the X93.

I just wonder if they are already building the case for direct investment and the B7's are simply a stop gap until next summer? Lets be honest, the E400's needed to be sent back and something new trialled!

I'm not saying the X93 needs new buses. I'm talking about the X10, X11, X15, X18, X21 and X22. They can't do it now but by looking at the total PVR of the above as 37, then Volvo and Wrightbus would've reduced the total purchase cost for 37 Volvo B9TL Gemini 2's.

(08 Mar 2014, 3:35 pm)Davey Bowyer wrote I'm not saying the X93 needs new buses. I'm talking about the X10, X11, X15, X18, X21 and X22. They can't do it now but by looking at the total PVR of the above as 37, then Volvo and Wrightbus would've reduced the total purchase cost for 37 Volvo B9TL Gemini 2's.

X21/X22 is getting refurbished and new, hence the E400 order. X10/X11 doesn't need new vehicles now as it uses 2/4 year old DB300s. X15 is getting the vehicles it requires - VDL SB4000/Van Hools. And, all 200 remaining Euro5 vehicles for each vehicle type maded by Euorpean manufactures must be ordered this year (ADL, Wrightbus and Optare can built unlimited Euro5 vehicles for orders until the end of the year).

(08 Mar 2014, 2:31 pm)Kuyoyo wrote No, the 'business case' goes on revenue not passenger numbers. That's how it works. All you like doing is moaning about Arriva and their 'apparent' endless mistakes - end of day yes there is some mistakes but at the end of the day they know what they are doing.

Well I'm glad you think so. I don't think many passengers who used the X93 last year will agree with you.

Is there another source of revenue other than passengers? The X93s are virtually all commercial aren't they, or will be very shortly.

(08 Mar 2014, 2:57 pm)Kuyoyo wrote What do you think they've been doing the last 5 years!? Replaced the Coaches with 5 year old OmniCitys in 2010 then when they withdrew the X60/X61 trialled the E400s which were successful with the loadings. Last summer they moved permenantly to Whitby but they struggle to cope. Hence the trial of 7624 but without even trialling the B7TLs they've gone for those (7494 is now at Redcar, the originally intended 11 are now coming with 3 for Ashington, 6 for Whitby and 2 for Jesmond to replace the 2 DAFs moving across from Classic) as a stop-gap. Like said, last year the X93 is said to have made a 6 figure profit (which means they took £170k+ including running costs etc) so hopefully even with an increased summer PVR (they looking at using 8 vehicles this year I believe) plus the rumoured good weather will produce similar results.

How do we know they've 'gone for' them without trialing them? What was the point of trialing 7624 if they've already decided on using the London stuff?

(08 Mar 2014, 3:03 pm)VolvoMarkII wrote Lets not forget, whilst we all debate how poor Arriva are and give the company torrents of abuse for how poor they are in our eyes, it is only recently they have converted the X93 to double deck operation (on paper yes), which should have happened years ago, so that in itself shows signs of improvement. You cant raise a sinking ship in one day, as they say. Arriva are crawling back from a position of being one of the worst operators in the area and it takes a long time to get any confidence back.

I'd certainly agree with that.

(08 Mar 2014, 6:33 pm)Roland Pratt wrote Well I'm glad you think so. I don't think many passengers who used the X93 last year will agree with you.

Is there another source of revenue other than passengers? The X93s are virtually all commercial aren't they, or will be very shortly.

There are other sources of revenue, though I would agree none are X93-specific.

The X93 does have some income from council funding for non-commercial trips, although NYCC are cutting this at the end of April. Redcar also fund some diversions into Moorsholm village to enable residents there to have a bus service to Middlesbrough and Guisborough at peak travelling times of the day.

There can be no denying that the operation of the service by the Enviro 400s during summer 2013 has been subject to serious issues and lost mileage has been way too high! The reliability won't help with the passenger experience and therefore there needs to be investment put into the service if we are to improve it in the future.

However there needs to be questions asked when it comes to the engineering ability. After all the same batch of vehicles (7501-4 anyway) operated on the service in summer 2012 season without any major issues, so why was 2013 so bad? Two more were brought in at short notice to try and give a decent vehicle availability for the high peak.

Therefore there has been a push to find an alternative vehicle for the summer 2014 season, with the VDL DB300 (namely 7624) and now the Volvo B7TLs arriving (indeed 7494 [LF02PLJ] is the first to arrive at Redcar) to be trialled on X93 over the next few weeks. I am told there is some pushing from higher up to use them full time on the X93 but if major issues are shown during the operation over the next few weeks then they will have to look at other options.

I have mentioned the Volvo B9TL vehicles at our Yorkshire division, but the same problem exists there in that they are a specific batch of vehicles operating on the 202/203 routes between Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield. Unfortunately even if a trial could be sorted between the two, if they became proven then I am sure any attempt to move some will be highly fought by Yorkshire.

(08 Mar 2014, 7:03 pm)tyresmoke wrote There are other sources of revenue, though I would agree none are X93-specific.

The X93 does have some income from council funding for non-commercial trips, although NYCC are cutting this at the end of April. Redcar also fund some diversions into Moorsholm village to enable residents there to have a bus service to Middlesbrough and Guisborough at peak travelling times of the day.

There can be no denying that the operation of the service by the Enviro 400s during summer 2013 has been subject to serious issues and lost mileage has been way too high! The reliability won't help with the passenger experience and therefore there needs to be investment put into the service if we are to improve it in the future.

However there needs to be questions asked when it comes to the engineering ability. After all the same batch of vehicles (7501-4 anyway) operated on the service in summer 2012 season without any major issues, so why was 2013 so bad? Two more were brought in at short notice to try and give a decent vehicle availability for the high peak.

Therefore there has been a push to find an alternative vehicle for the summer 2014 season, with the VDL DB300 (namely 7624) and now the Volvo B7TLs arriving (indeed 7494 [LF02PLJ] is the first to arrive at Redcar) to be trialled on X93 over the next few weeks. I am told there is some pushing from higher up to use them full time on the X93 but if major issues are shown during the operation over the next few weeks then they will have to look at other options.

I have mentioned the Volvo B9TL vehicles at our Yorkshire division, but the same problem exists there in that they are a specific batch of vehicles operating on the 202/203 routes between Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield. Unfortunately even if a trial could be sorted between the two, if they became proven then I am sure any attempt to move some will be highly fought by Yorkshire.

The B9TL is a fantastic vehicle with plenty of power and fairly good reliability. Out of the 67 that GNE have purchased since 2011:-
- One from Washington sent back to Volvo due to fault and has been fine since.
- Very rare breakdowns on the Red Arrows
- Occasional breakdowns on the TTX due to gearing demands because of the route and oil problems but no engine troubles
- The 13 on the TEN had a few electrical faults on launch day and two days later, they were all fixed up and rolled out. Only 1 or 2 breakdowns.
- Out of the 34 that were purchased for the CC and Fab 56, only 1 had a minor breakdown that was fixed swiftly.
- The only common problem with the B9TL or more specifically, the ZF gearbox is the low gear ratios in turn, causing more fuel consumption and more wear and tear but thisbonly prevails when being used on fast dual carriageway and motorway routes such as the TTX. But it hans't been too much of a problem.
- I don't know about that one from Washington that was sent back to Volvo but my knowledge is that there has been no engine trouble with the B9TL engine so far.
- A common issue with all Wrightbuses has been electrical faults but not specifically Volvo related.

(08 Mar 2014, 6:33 pm)Roland Pratt wrote Well I'm glad you think so. I don't think many passengers who used the X93 last year will agree with you.

Is there another source of revenue other than passengers? The X93s are virtually all commercial aren't they, or will be very shortly.

Well look at it this way... which one makes the most money? 100 free concessionary passes contributing £80*, or 100 adult returns at say £6 each - making £600. You can't buy new buses when there's no money coming in, that's probably one of the reasons the X60 stopped operating, as it was predominantly free pass holders.

* I think the reimbursement is 80p per passenger, but please correct me if I'm wrong!

(09 Mar 2014, 10:31 am)BJ10VUS wrote Well look at it this way... which one makes the most money? 100 free concessionary passes contributing £80*, or 100 adult returns at say £6 each - making £600. You can't buy new buses when there's no money coming in, that's probably one of the reasons the X60 stopped operating, as it was predominantly free pass holders.

* I think the reimbursement is 80p per passenger, but please correct me if I'm wrong!

Your probably quite close there with 80p. I think reimbursement works out at half of the average half fare

I've been abandoning Arriva recently, and want to photo 'em more, starting off with a visit to Middlesbrough soon.

I'm just wandering, what are the things I am to look out for which will be withdrawn this year? MPD's? Prestiges?

I had loads photoed, but annoyingly someone deleted my photos, and probably can't recover them now.

Thanks.

(09 Mar 2014, 12:35 pm)Tom wrote I've been abandoning Arriva recently, and want to photo 'em more, starting off with a visit to Middlesbrough soon.

I'm just wandering, what are the things I am to look out for which will be withdrawn this year? MPD's? Prestiges?

I had loads photoed, but annoyingly someone deleted my photos, and probably can't recover them now.

Thanks.

Yep Prestiges and all the Darts... T-reg DAFs at Durham and their 4 Tridents too.

(09 Mar 2014, 2:53 pm)tyresmoke wrote Yep Prestiges and all the Darts... T-reg DAFs at Durham and their 4 Tridents too.

Thanks, will the T-FGN DAFs hang on for much longer?
Also what about the MPD's at Darlo?

(09 Mar 2014, 2:53 pm)Tom wrote Thanks, will the T-FGN DAFs hang on for much longer?
Also what about the MPD's at Darlo?

I would think the MPDs other than 05 regs will be in line to go. Will need something to replace them. Maybe Redcar could lose a couple of 110xs replaced by big buses, or Stockton lose their 05 regs, replaced by Cadets on the 7 possibly.

(09 Mar 2014, 3:22 pm)Roland Pratt wrote I would think the MPDs other than 05 regs will be in line to go. Will need something to replace them. Maybe Redcar could lose a couple of 110xs replaced by big buses, or Stockton lose their 05 regs, replaced by Cadets on the 7 possibly.

I could see the 05 plates ending up at Blyth eventually. For now though all of the non DDA Darts will be going this year, that includes all of the remaining Darts below 1756 and 1611-1656.

The T-FGNs are likely to go very soon with the Volvo B7s being delivered at a rate of knots. Same for the 2 Spectras and 7367.

(09 Mar 2014, 4:51 pm)tyresmoke wrote I could see the 05 plates ending up at Blyth eventually. For now though all of the non DDA Darts will be going this year, that includes all of the remaining Darts below 1756 and 1611-1656.

The T-FGNs are likely to go very soon with the Volvo B7s being delivered at a rate of knots. Same for the 2 Spectras and 7367.

Including 1793/4/7/8/9?

(09 Mar 2014, 4:54 pm)Tom wrote Including 1793/4/7/8/9?

1798/9 will remain as they are DDA (52 and 04 reg).

As for Stockton's MPDs, I understand 1772 will not be moving until this time next year due to the terms of the contract for its recently applied rear advert. The 7, I would assume, will be mostly Cadet worked from the summer (with 1772) while the other MPD route (the 6) will likely also go over to Cadets if 1769/71 do transfer (Cadets will be freed up thanks to the Streetlites for the 5/5a, which should allow Pulsars to be used on 17s).

(09 Mar 2014, 4:54 pm)Tom wrote Including 1793/4/7/8/9?

Yes I always forget about those lot but yes - expect 1795/6 will go too as they're absolutely knackered, to put it politely!
These will likely be replaced by the cascade of the Durham Park & Ride Solos in the autumn.

(09 Mar 2014, 5:03 pm)tyresmoke wrote Yes I always forget about those lot but yes - expect 1795/6 will go too as they're absolutely knackered, to put it politely!
These will likely be replaced by the cascade of the Durham Park & Ride Solos in the autumn.

Better get up to Darlington before the summer too, I doubt they will be withdrawn by then?

(09 Mar 2014, 5:05 pm)Tom wrote Better get up to Darlington before the summer too, I doubt they will be withdrawn by then?

Depends when the new stock starts turning up really. All due to be in service by September though with some due significantly earlier

(09 Mar 2014, 6:23 pm)tyresmoke wrote Depends when the new stock starts turning up really. All due to be in service by September though with some due significantly earlier

What are the usual routes for Darts in Darlington?

(09 Mar 2014, 6:34 pm)Tom wrote What are the usual routes for Darts in Darlington?

The answer is on the first post of the Rare and Odd Workings thread.

(09 Mar 2014, 6:39 pm)Dan wrote The answer is on the first post of the Rare and Odd Workings thread.

Oh god yeah, forgot about that. Thanks Dan

(09 Mar 2014, 6:43 pm)Tom wrote Oh god yeah, forgot about that. Thanks Dan

Despite the fact the 75/76 are the only services officially allocated to Darts, Darlington has 15 darts when the PVR of 75/76 is only 3! Therefore unfortunately there tends to be more more Darts on 9/10 and 13A/13B than Optare Solos which should be on there! As a result Tom if you head into Darlington Town Centre at a normal time of the day I guarantee you will see a Dart within 0-60 seconds of arriving there!