(06 Jul 2014, 7:57 pm)aureolin wrote Which is a shame. It comes across the wrong way.

Unfortunately common across multiple operators.

Kuyoyo had to list Arriva North East's full service changes out in full on the forum a few weeks back by comparing both timetables - it hadn't been done by the company.
I note on their most recent service changes, they have given a few more specific examples, however.

(06 Jul 2014, 8:19 pm)Dan wrote Unfortunately common across multiple operators.

Kuyoyo had to list Arriva North East's full service changes out in full on the forum a few weeks back by comparing both timetables - it hadn't been done by the company.
I note on their most recent service changes, they have given a few more specific examples, however.

To be fair to Arriva I had to do the same with a lot of GNE's changes.

(06 Jul 2014, 8:21 pm)gtom wrote To be fair to Arriva I had to do the same with a lot of GNE's changes.

I know - aureolin had to do that himself for GNE's service changes in a post above, which is why I pointed out ANE do it too.

Like I say, it's unfortunate that bus operators don't list their service changes out in full, but I guess if there's a whole list of 'this is being axed, 'this is being axed', 'this is being axed', and, oh.. 'this is being axed too'... Doesn't make the operator look too good.
Customers who don't even travel by those buses could notice that, and end up fearing the worst for their local services too - perhaps even commenting on this on Social Media. I'm inclined to suggest that most customers won't actually think of their local bus service as contributing to a business' success or demise - and I doubt some people would realise that if a service is not profitable, there's only so many times it can be self-subsidised before it has to be cut.

Just one suggestion why they don't list the service changes out in full, especially when it comes to services being withdrawn... Mightn't be correct!

(06 Jul 2014, 8:19 pm)Dan wrote Unfortunately common across multiple operators.

Kuyoyo had to list Arriva North East's full service changes out in full on the forum a few weeks back by comparing both timetables - it hadn't been done by the company.
I note on their most recent service changes, they have given a few more specific examples, however.

Arriva always have a bit of a delay on their website between the timetables being posted and a service changes article being posted but they always do one in the end and they seem to be becoming more detailed which is a positive!

(06 Jul 2014, 8:23 pm)Dan wrote I know - aureolin had to do that himself for GNE's service changes in a post above, which is why I pointed out ANE do it too.

Like I say, it's unfortunate that bus operators don't list their service changes out in full, but I guess if there's a whole list of 'this is being axed, 'this is being axed', 'this is being axed', and, oh.. 'this is being axed too'... Doesn't make the operator look too good.
Customers who don't even travel by those buses could notice that, and end up fearing the worst for their local services too - perhaps even commenting on this on Social Media. I'm inclined to suggest that most customers won't actually think of their local bus service as contributing to a business' success or demise - and I doubt some people would realise that if a service is not profitable, there's only so many times it can be self-subsidised before it has to be cut.

Just one suggestion why they don't list the service changes out in full, especially when it comes to services being withdrawn... Mightn't be correct!

I'll not get into the argument about the reasons services are cut, as that really wasn't the intention of my original post. I wanted to highlight, that in my opinion, any operator not publishing full changes of service cuts to services is dishonest. A cut is a commercial decision, and those that make the decision should have shoulders broad enough to deal with any potential consequences.

As a customer I would be peeved if one of the services being cut was the service I used on a daily basis for work. At the same time, I'd be even more peeved if it was being cut and it wasn't blatantly obvious from the information provided. This information used to be provided until not so long ago, because I remember X1 changes being published detailing individual journeys that would no longer run, as my partner at the time was affected.

Like I say though. Not about the decision itself or the reasons behind it, but more so the way the message has been communicated.

Forgot to say I saw an x3 running on Saturday along the felling by pass. The bus was packed I was shocked I looked again then realised it was packed with fresh air lol. The only human was the driver. Lol?

I'll not get into the argument about the reasons services are cut, as that really wasn't the intention of my original post. I wanted to highlight, that in my opinion, any operator not publishing full changes of service cuts to services is dishonest. A cut is a commercial decision, and those that make the decision should have shoulders broad enough to deal with any potential consequences.

Sadly its those decision makers who dont end up getting the grief, its the drivers and customer service agents that often feel the travelling publics frustrations.

(06 Jul 2014, 10:09 pm)aureolin wrote I'll not get into the argument about the reasons services are cut, as that really wasn't the intention of my original post. I wanted to highlight, that in my opinion, any operator not publishing full changes of service cuts to services is dishonest. A cut is a commercial decision, and those that make the decision should have shoulders broad enough to deal with any potential consequences.

As a customer I would be peeved if one of the services being cut was the service I used on a daily basis for work. At the same time, I'd be even more peeved if it was being cut and it wasn't blatantly obvious from the information provided. This information used to be provided until not so long ago, because I remember X1 changes being published detailing individual journeys that would no longer run, as my partner at the time was affected.

Like I say though. Not about the decision itself or the reasons behind it, but more so the way the message has been communicated.

It's the same in the retail industry too - they don't publish a list of products they've discontinued because they're not selling as well as they'd have liked. Customers have to actually go to the shop and ask a sales assistant where their desired product is before being told that the product has been discontinued.

I think 'dishonest' is a tad harsh and a bit extreme. Unlike in the retail industry, the transport industry lets customers know that there are going to be some changes, though frustratingly, the specifics of these changes are very rarely given (the exception being when more journeys are being added). Both timetables remain online until the services do actually change, and for most bus operators, they give these in about a month in advance. I'm really not sure how it's 'dishonest' if these operators are alerting customers to service changes, allowing both timetables to remain online, and having Customer Services agents there to answer any questions regarding specific journeys being cut.

Once again, I think we must look at the full picture. I feel that one of the reasons why bus operators (and you can include the likes of Nexus for the Metro too - on their last service changes, they did not include any details of what the changes were, and Brandon had to go through and amend his master timetable accordingly by comparing each and every station timetable) don't include the full information of all service cuts is because it presents them in a bad light. It presents them in a bad light through the eyes of customers because I feel they often don't realise that a bus service contributes to a business' success or demise.

How many times have you seen a post on Facebook by Go North East (or any other operator) indicating that there will be service changes to services 39, 60, 61 and X3 - yet you still get comments saying 'Will the 44 be changing?'
If there was details saying 'The 1900 journey of service 39 will be withdrawn due to low passenger numbers, the 2235 journey on service 60 will be withdrawn due to low passenger numbers', customers on the 44 then might take to the Social Media pages and complain that GNE (or other operators) are always cutting back services and how unfair it is.
Normal customers have a lot less knowledge of the industry than we do, and they won't realise that bus operators self-subsidise as much as possible before making cuts. They won't realise that the cuts are a last resort, and it really is because the service is not making money, or it is just scraping break-even and therefore too risky to continue.

As nk55 says, it's those who don't even influence these changes who end up getting it worst from customers too. I can't help but feel adding specific details - especially when it concerns customers losing out on a service that they use - would be lighting fuel to the fire.

(07 Jul 2014, 9:04 am)Dan wrote It's the same in the retail industry too - they don't publish a list of products they've discontinued because they're not selling as well as they'd have liked. Customers have to actually go to the shop and ask a sales assistant where their desired product is before being told that the product has been discontinued.

I think 'dishonest' is a tad harsh and a bit extreme. Unlike in the retail industry, the transport industry lets customers know that there are going to be some changes, though frustratingly, the specifics of these changes are very rarely given (the exception being when more journeys are being added). Both timetables remain online until the services do actually change, and for most bus operators, they give these in about a month in advance. I'm really not sure how it's 'dishonest' if these operators are alerting customers to service changes, allowing both timetables to remain online, and having Customer Services agents there to answer any questions regarding specific journeys being cut.

Once again, I think we must look at the full picture. I feel that one of the reasons why bus operators (and you can include the likes of Nexus for the Metro too - on their last service changes, they did not include any details of what the changes were, and Brandon had to go through and amend his master timetable accordingly by comparing each and every station timetable) don't include the full information of all service cuts is because it presents them in a bad light. It presents them in a bad light through the eyes of customers because I feel they often don't realise that a bus service contributes to a business' success or demise.

How many times have you seen a post on Facebook by Go North East (or any other operator) indicating that there will be service changes to services 39, 60, 61 and X3 - yet you still get comments saying 'Will the 44 be changing?'
If there was details saying 'The 1900 journey of service 39 will be withdrawn due to low passenger numbers, the 2235 journey on service 60 will be withdrawn due to low passenger numbers', customers on the 44 then might take to the Social Media pages and complain that GNE (or other operators) are always cutting back services and how unfair it is.
Normal customers have a lot less knowledge of the industry than we do, and they won't realise that bus operators self-subsidise as much as possible before making cuts. They won't realise that the cuts are a last resort, and it really is because the service is not making money, or it is just scraping break-even and therefore too risky to continue.

As nk55 says, it's those who don't even influence these changes who end up getting it worst from customers too. I can't help but feel adding specific details - especially when it concerns customers losing out on a service that they use - would be lighting fuel to the fire.

Whether it is dishonest or not, it certainly isn't giving passengers (who quite often rely on a certain service) the whole story.
The impact can be greater than it was when I turned up at Greggs one day to find my Thai Chicken Sandwich had been discontinued!

Organisations are quick to lay on the PR, spin and publicity when something new is introduced (or re-introduced).
Maybe those making decisions, need to take the rough with the smooth and highlight the cuts in just a little bit more detail - so that those who keep the business moving (drivers on the front line and passengers using the buses) aren't the ones who suffer.

When using the train and returning home via Durham station (following reductions in services stopping at Chester) there was a time I used trains which would arrive no later than 18.30 - it gave me time to get down onto North Road, jump on the 18.50 20a and make necessary connections.

That isn't possible now.
If I wasn't a member on this forum, I would have been unaware of the specific changes and would have gone to North Road on Friday evening gone - with bags, suitcases etc, getting soaked in the process!

Unfortunately, the options available to me now, following the cuts, leave me with little choice, but to park the car in Durham, arrange a lift or sort an expensive taxi.

I won't be the only one affected - but it certainly highlights the importance of passengers being given the information.

(07 Jul 2014, 10:03 am)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Whether it is dishonest or not, it certainly isn't giving passengers (who quite often rely on a certain service) the whole story.
The impact can be greater than it was when I turned up at Greggs one day to find my Thai Chicken Sandwich had been discontinued!

Organisations are quick to lay on the PR, spin and publicity when something new is introduced (or re-introduced).
Maybe those making decisions, need to take the rough with the smooth and highlight the cuts in just a little bit more detail - so that those who keep the business moving (drivers on the front line and passengers using the buses) aren't the ones who suffer.

When using the train and returning home via Durham station (following reductions in services stopping at Chester) there was a time I used trains which would arrive no later than 18.30 - it gave me time to get down onto North Road, jump on the 18.50 x20 and make necessary connections.

That isn't possible now.
If I wasn't a member on this forum, I would have been unaware of the specific changes and would have gone to North Road on Friday evening gone - with bags, suitcases etc, getting soaked in the process!

Unfortunately, the options available to me now, following the cuts, leave me with little choice, but to park the car in Durham, arrange a lift or sort an expensive taxi.

I won't be the only one affected - but it certainly highlights the importance of passengers being given the information.

I've made it clear that I don't agree with operators not giving specific examples of which cuts are being made, but I can see the argument from both sides. The severity of the impact isn't what really matters in this case, the point was to show that it happens in all organisations, regardless of the industry it's in.

Some bus operators are taking steps to give more specific examples when it comes to cuts - note recent comments about Northumberland changes for Arriva. This is only fairly recent though, with Kuyoyo listing all changes himself on the forum a few weeks back, for changes on Teesside. A step in the right direction though, maybe.

I'm surprised that, despite being made aware of 'minor service changes' on service 20, you'd not have the common sense to download the new timetable and check that it's still possible to make a journey that you regularly(?) used - especially as someone who has a greater knowledge/interest of the industry than the average customer, and someone who has perhaps experienced 'minor changes' being an example of service cuts in the past.
If aureolin hadn't provided the specific service changes for service X36 by comparing both timetables and then listing the changes on here, I would have done it for myself - simply because I will be using service X36 a lot from next month (when my U16 POP Card expires).

(07 Jul 2014, 10:12 am)Dan wrote I've made it clear that I don't agree with operators not giving specific examples of which cuts are being made, but I can see the argument from both sides. The severity of the impact isn't what really matters in this case, the point was to show that it happens in all organisations, regardless of the industry it's in.

Some bus operators are taking steps to give more specific examples when it comes to cuts - note recent comments about Northumberland changes for Arriva. This is only fairly recent though, with Kuyoyo listing all changes himself on the forum a few weeks back, for changes on Teesside. A step in the right direction though, maybe.

I'm surprised that, despite being made aware of 'minor service changes' on service 20, you'd not have the common sense to download the new timetable and check that it's still possible to make a journey that you regularly(?) used - especially as someone who has a greater knowledge/interest of the industry than the average customer, and someone who has perhaps experienced 'minor changes' being an example of service cuts in the past.
If aureolin hadn't provided the specific service changes for service X36 by comparing both timetables and then listing the changes on here, I would have done it for myself - simply because I will be using service X36 a lot from next month (when my U16 POP Card expires).

I did check, that's why I knew I had to make specific arrangements for Friday, rather than hang around North Road on a Friday night :p

It was only after being made aware of 'minor changes' on here, that I did decide to check. As I hadn't seen any literature on vehicles and don't bother with the fb page much (just like the majority of passengers don't - using the number of followers versus advertised passenger numbers).

From memory, those 'minor changes' on the 20's - involve the approx 18.40 hanging on in North Road for an extra few minutes, leaving approx 18.45.
The 18.50, is cut.
The next one is just after 19.00.

If I get off the train at approx 18.30 (not taking into account delays), the 18.40 was more or less impossible.
The 18.45 departure is very tight by the time I walk down from the station. The 18.50 was perfect and the 19.00 misses connections and extends the journey/travel times by quite a margin.

Don't get me started on the mission I need to go on using buses, if arriving at 19.53 on the Cross Stinky from Scotland or after 8 on a northbound train!

As I say, others are affected - this isn't just about me. But a lone female, unaware of the changes and making a similar trip - is leaving herself quite vulnerable.
That could have been solved instantly, by the operator advertising changes in detail.

Touching on your ANE stuff, they are improving and I have been impressed with their follow up consultation and detailed response

(07 Jul 2014, 10:42 am)Andreos Constantopolous wrote I did check, that's why I knew I had to make specific arrangements for Friday, rather than hang around North Road on a Friday night :p

It was only after being made aware of 'minor changes' on here, that I did decide to check. As I hadn't seen any literature on vehicles and don't bother with the fb page much (just like the majority of passengers don't - using the number of followers versus advertised passenger numbers).

From memory, those 'minor changes' on the 20's - involve the approx 18.40 hanging on in North Road for an extra few minutes, leaving approx 18.45.
The 18.50, is cut.
The next one is just after 19.00.

If I get off the train at approx 18.30 (not taking into account delays), the 18.40 was more or less impossible.
The 18.45 departure is very tight by the time I walk down from the station. The 18.50 was perfect and the 19.00 misses connections and extends the journey/travel times by quite a margin.

Don't get me started on the mission I need to go on using buses, if arriving at 19.53 on the Cross Stinky from Scotland or after 8 on a northbound train!

As I say, others are affected - this isn't just about me. But a lone female, unaware of the changes and making a similar trip - is leaving herself quite vulnerable.
That could have been solved instantly, by the operator advertising changes in detail.

Touching on your ANE stuff, they are improving and I have been impressed with their follow up consultation and detailed response

Speaking for Go North East alone here: the posters advertising service changes are usually displayed a week after the changes are first advertised on the website and Social Media pages. The delay is due to the time it takes to make and print the posters, in addition to actually having all vehicles in the depot (i.e. night times only) to pin the posters up on the notice boards.

Unless that procedure has not happened for whatever reason, you'd still have three weeks to check against both timetables and make alternative arrangements.
But hey, even a week's delay is better than what Nexus last did when there was changes to the Metro... They only posted on their website and a few days before the changes they also added a message to the boards which stated there was going to be timetable changes and to check the website for more information. Nothing was found on-board Metros!

Regardless of whether passengers 'like' or 'follow' Go North East's Social Media pages, any with an Internet connection (which will be the majority) will check the website to download timetables. If a lone female, who is likely to have a mobile device or is likely to have had access to another device which connects to the Internet, does not have the sense to pick up a new timetable from the bus or download it online after posters, Social Media posts and website posts all suggest there is going to be service changes from whatever date, she's a fool.

No fleet updates this week =)

Anyway... Moving on...

Former "Lime" Volvo B10BLE 4900 has now arrived at Saltmeadows for repaint into corporate livery, and former "Fast Cats" Scania L94 4976 likewise.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:43 am)Dan wrote Anyway... Moving on...

Former "Lime" Volvo B10BLE 4900 has now arrived at Saltmeadows for repaint into corporate livery, and former "Fast Cats" Scania L94 4976 likewise.

Shame we will only see 6 buses in Lime now, until they are withdrawn =(

(07 Jul 2014, 11:50 am)Michael wrote Shame we will only see 6 buses in Lime now, until they are withdrawn =(

Personally, I'm glad.

They were looking really tatty if you ask me.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:51 am)Dan wrote Personally, I'm glad.

They were looking really tatty if you ask me.

They were but it's gonna be odd seen half northern, half lime, used to just seen the Lime brand, as the Livery has being on them B10's since 2007!

Still wondering how much of a brand we will see when it gets new buses.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:52 am)Michael wrote They were but it's gonna be odd seen half northern, half lime, used to just seen the Lime brand, as the Livery has being on them B10's since 2007!

Still wondering how much of a brand we will see when it gets new buses.

As I've said before, the fact they've repainted the buses so far in advance makes me think they're going to ditch the "Lime" name completely with the new buses - that, or completely redesign it so it shows little to no resemblance to the current design.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:55 am)Dan wrote As I've said before, the fact they've repainted the buses so far in advance makes me think they're going to ditch the "Lime" name completely with the new buses - that, or completely redesign it so it shows little to no resemblance to the current design.

I'm hoping they do change the name and colour, what ever it gets the Lime colour will have to stop on the buses for at least 5 years, hoe ever if it was a different colour, like a red, the dirt etc won't be picked up as much.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:07 am)Dan wrote Speaking for Go North East alone here: the posters advertising service changes are usually displayed a week after the changes are first advertised on the website and Social Media pages. The delay is due to the time it takes to make and print the posters, in addition to actually having all vehicles in the depot (i.e. night times only) to pin the posters up on the notice boards.

Unless that procedure has not happened for whatever reason, you'd still have three weeks to check against both timetables and make alternative arrangements.
But hey, even a week's delay is better than what Nexus last did when there was changes to the Metro... They only posted on their website and a few days before the changes they also added a message to the boards which stated there was going to be timetable changes and to check the website for more information. Nothing was found on-board Metros!

Regardless of whether passengers 'like' or 'follow' Go North East's Social Media pages, any with an Internet connection (which will be the majority) will check the website to download timetables. If a lone female, who is likely to have a mobile device or is likely to have had access to another device which connects to the Internet, does not have the sense to pick up a new timetable from the bus or download it online after posters, Social Media posts and website posts all suggest there is going to be service changes from whatever date, she's a fool.

But why would someone check or pick up timetables and end up being labeled a 'fool' - if they had no reason to suspect changes were happening?
Or if the person was aware of the minor changes - they presumed the changes were just that. Not the cancelling of one or two runs.

You have already said that I am someone who has more knowledge/interest than an average passenger, I have numerous different tools to get on the internet - yet it was only because of this site, I was aware of changes and how I needed to check in the details in the timetables, so I could get home this weekend.

How is a regular, non-enthusiast passenger a fool, if they are totally unaware of 'minor changes' to the service they use on a regular basis?
If I hadn't registered on this site despite my 'knowledge or interest', I would have walked down the hill in the rain carrying bags, laptop and a suitcase to stand and wait for a bus which had been cancelled just a few weeks earlier - even though the fairly recent timetable saved onto my phone stipulates the bus should have been there.

Pretty sure the posters displayed on the vehicles I used on the 20 (both in the lead up to and immediate days after the changes), were still outlining the recent increases to fares.
There were no posters relating to specific services being cut/reduced at all.

It isn't up to a passenger to check the finer points of a timetable every time they plan on using a bus they use on a regular basis...

(07 Jul 2014, 12:00 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote But why would someone check or pick up timetables and end up being labeled a 'fool' - if they had no reason to suspect changes were happening?

You have already said that I am someone who has more knowledge/interest than an average passenger, I have numerous different tools to get on the internet - yet it was only because of this site, I was aware of changes and how I needed to check in the details in the timetables, so I could get home this weekend.

How is a regular, non-enthusiast passenger a fool, if they are totally unaware of 'minor changes' to the service they use on a regular basis?
If I hadn't registered on this site despite my 'knowledge or interest', I would have walked down the hill in the rain carrying bags, laptop and a suitcase to stand and wait for a bus which had been cancelled just a few weeks earlier - even though the fairly recent timetable saved onto my phone stipulates the bus should have been there.

Pretty sure the posters displayed on the vehicles I used on the 20 (both in the lead up to and immediate days after the changes), were still outlining the recent increases to fares.
There were no posters relating to specific services being cut/reduced at all.

It isn't up to a passenger to check the finer points of a timetable every time they plan on using a bus they use on a regular basis...

Can I call a time out here...

Just agree to disagree as you ain't gonna agree with each other

(07 Jul 2014, 12:05 pm)marxistafozzski wrote Can I call a time out here...

Just agree to disagree as you ain't gonna agree with each other

I think we will have to do this. I said 'Moving on...' for a reason.

(07 Jul 2014, 12:05 pm)marxistafozzski wrote Can I call a time out here...

Just agree to disagree as you ain't gonna agree with each other

Aye, it was going round in circles like.
Wouldn't have bothered replying if I knew Dan had moved on.

Remember to check those timetables next time you are out! They may have changed without you knowing

(07 Jul 2014, 1:59 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Aye, it was going round in circles like.
Wouldn't have bothered replying if I knew Dan had moved on.

Remember to check those timetables next time you are out! They may have changed without you knowing

Ha'way, you're just seeking a reaction now... :s
If you wouldn't have bothered replying before if you'd realised I said 'Moving on...', why bother with this post - which continues to add more fuel to the fire?

All customers should be aware of a timetable change. I don't know why, in your case, no posters have been pinned up on board "Prince Bishops" branded vehicles. It makes very little sense to me given that I've never had an issue like this in the past, and given that the posters would have been made and printed off.

Posters are always going to be vague though, and you're never going to find a poster which says which journeys are being altered or axed. They're just not big enough to do that with - and it's best to keep them short and snappy anyway. Up and down the UK when I've travelled on buses, I've never seen posters like that - I've only ever seen posters guiding customers to the company's website for more information.
Operators could work on including more details than at present on their website, but that's their option. If they don't wish to do that, they don't have to. They'll have their reasons for not doing it; even if it differs upon what I have suggested in my posts, we stand very little chance of being able to alter that.


Yes, moving on.

(07 Jul 2014, 11:55 am)Dan wrote As I've said before, the fact they've repainted the buses so far in advance makes me think they're going to ditch the "Lime" name completely with the new buses - that, or completely redesign it so it shows little to no resemblance to the current design.

Hope they do as, in the past we have struggled to find out anything that relates to the 'Lime' name. Doesnt relate to the service number or anything around the area that is well known.

(07 Jul 2014, 3:05 pm)Robert wrote Hope they do as, in the past we have struggled to find out anything that relates to the 'Lime' name. Doesnt relate to the service number or anything around the area that is well known.

I can't remember who (think it may have been Andreos?), but didn't someone mention it had something to do with a quarry or something? Something near Chester, if I remember rightly.

This may sound stupid but the only thing i can think of regarding the name lime is when they used lime light in the coal mines,thats all i can really think of

(07 Jul 2014, 3:09 pm)Dan wrote I can't remember who (think it may have been Andreos?), but didn't someone mention it had something to do with a quarry or something? Something near Chester, if I remember rightly.

I remember it - it was me who asked about Lime quarries, then Andreos did say something but I forget now, then Gary Mitchellhill confirmed it. I think they were over in Durham.

(07 Jul 2014, 3:09 pm)Dan wrote I can't remember who (think it may have been Andreos?), but didn't someone mention it had something to do with a quarry or something? Something near Chester, if I remember rightly.

Someone did mention it was named after the limestone quarries up towards Consett - I just pointed out there was no limestone anywhere on the route apart from the section east of Chester (you can see it at various points along the River Wear).

http://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showth...hp?tid=475&page=641

(07 Jul 2014, 3:18 pm)Marcus wrote I remember it - it was me who asked about Lime quarries, then Andreos did say something but I forget now, then Gary Mitchellhill confirmed it. I think they were over in Durham.

Pelton way I believe.