(16 Aug 2014, 9:42 am)aureolin wrote As long as you're alright though... Sod the other 30 odd passengers on the bus yeah? At least the 30 quid could go towards sourcing and replacing the trip you prevented running.

So what would your suggesting be stay stuck in Middlesbrough

Maybe Stagecoach and other companies could provide sick bags I do see it from both sides I wouldent like to be on a bus full of vomit but what can people do if they need to travel

No excuse for cancelling a journey just 'cos someone has been sick. Have they never heard of a mop and bucket?

If we were talking about plonkies who've had too much to drink which is usually the case with taxis a fine might be fair enough but most of the time with buses its not alcohol or a medical condition its travel sickness. When I was little I couldn't travel from Redcar to Saltburn without feeling sick but I grew out of it in my teens (still couldn't read a book while travelling though). Hardly going to encourage bus use if you start doling out £30 fines.

(16 Aug 2014, 12:19 pm)Roland Pratt wrote No excuse for cancelling a journey just 'cos someone has been sick. Have they never heard of a mop and bucket?

If we were talking about plonkies who've had too much to drink which is usually the case with taxis a fine might be fair enough but most of the time with buses its not alcohol or a medical condition its travel sickness. When I was little I couldn't travel from Redcar to Saltburn without feeling sick but I grew out of it in my teens (still couldn't read a book while travelling though). Hardly going to encourage bus use if you start doling out £30 fines.

If in a taxi you can ask the driver to pull over so you can be sick.

(16 Aug 2014, 7:59 am)Dan wrote That's not what he was saying though. The suggestion was to have a penalty fine (£30) for those who are sick on the bus and cause disruption to everyone else, who are then more than entitled to claim 'compensation', causing the company to lose out on even more cash.
This would discourage anyone who feels like they are going to be sick from travelling by bus. Really, it's quite inconsiderate.

So hang on a £30 fine? What about people who suffer from motion sickness, the heat from behind the windows (open or not) etc...they should be fined. If that was a case people with motion sickness would be house bound.

People can't help if they are sick, drunks don't have control over their body systems either if some of you are old enough to have had a night out would understand. The bus would have to come off anyway to be cleaned so really what disruption, you want a clean bus don't you? If a spare bus can be put out to transfer passengers to the destination the mileage, which is most important is not being lost! Time can be gained back while that bus is out and cleaned to which can be put to point A for the spare bus to transfer passengers which takes 2-3minutes at that?

(17 Aug 2014, 10:47 am)Half Pint wrote drunks don't have control over their body systems either

But they should have wouldnt you say, why should they make a mess of my journey just because they cannot hold their own, and I am old enough to think that and have a night out......

(17 Aug 2014, 10:51 am)citaro5284 wrote But they should have wouldnt you say, why should they make a mess of my journey just because they cannot hold their own, and I am old enough to think that and have a night out......

Then why should people have a night out? Why do we bring them drunk people home? We don't know they are going to be sick...it's the risk we have to take.

(17 Aug 2014, 10:47 am)Half Pint wrote So hang on a £30 fine? What about people who suffer from motion sickness, the heat from behind the windows (open or not) etc...they should be fined. If that was a case people with motion sickness would be house bound.

People can't help if they are sick, drunks don't have control over their body systems either if some of you are old enough to have had a night out would understand. The bus would have to come off anyway to be cleaned so really what disruption, you want a clean bus don't you? If a spare bus can be put out to transfer passengers to the destination the mileage, which is most important is not being lost! Time can be gained back while that bus is out and cleaned to which can be put to point A for the spare bus to transfer passengers which takes 2-3minutes at that?

I've personally never thrown up in a taxi - nor do I regularly travel by taxi as they're far too expensive - so I don't know what the actual penalty charge is for being sick in a taxi; however, the figure was based from this post.

People with motion sickness are more than entitled to travel - as long as they take their medication to prevent them from being sick. There are ways and means of preventing sickness providing it's down to travel sickness.

I'm inclined to suggest that all users of this forum know the effects of alcohol, and the majority will indeed have consumed alcohol in the past and they've probably been in a not-so-good state themselves before. If anyone drinks so much that they can't have control over their bodies - be it their behaviour or health - they've had far too much, and they should have stopped drinking a long time ago. This is that person's fault, so why should anyone else on that person's bus suffer - especially if they've paid x amount of money for a day, weekly, monthly or annual ticket for use on that bus?

A £30 penalty charge is more likely to prevent people from getting in such a state as described in posts related to this topic, providing it is alcohol-related.

Arriva North East don't replace buses which someone has been sick on - they merely clean the bus once it reaches the terminus or a timing point which allows enough time for the bus to be cleaned. Stagecoach North East do replace the buses, though this often comes with lost mileage (especially if someone has been sick during the day) which further inconveniences other customers, and I'm not sure what the usual procedure is for Go North East as I've never had to experience it before.

Steps should be made to reduce the amount of people being sick on buses, and I still stand by what I've said before (and the original point being made - that a penalty charge would achieve this).

(16 Aug 2014, 12:19 pm)Roland Pratt wrote No excuse for cancelling a journey just 'cos someone has been sick. Have they never heard of a mop and bucket?

If we were talking about plonkies who've had too much to drink which is usually the case with taxis a fine might be fair enough but most of the time with buses its not alcohol or a medical condition its travel sickness. When I was little I couldn't travel from Redcar to Saltburn without feeling sick but I grew out of it in my teens (still couldn't read a book while travelling though). Hardly going to encourage bus use if you start doling out £30 fines.

Maybe but that's not the right way to go about cleaning sick up on a bus, it has to be cleaned correctly with the correct stuff, if not people could pick up what ever they had - if its illness.

(17 Aug 2014, 11:15 am)Michael wrote Maybe but that's not the right way to go about cleaning sick up on a bus, it has to be cleaned correctly with the correct stuff, if not people could pick up what ever they had - if its illness.

One could argue that, if the germs/bacteria spread given that the bus has not been properly cleaned, and another person caught the illness, that person may then miss work a few days later, and their employer is in turn inconvenienced.

Although these things can't be prevented, they certainly can be reduced.

(17 Aug 2014, 10:47 am)Half Pint wrote drunks don't have control over their body systems either if some of you are old enough to have had a night out would understand.

Are they tied down and force fed alcohol like? It's their choice to get rat arsed and in a state that they're likely to vomit on public transport. Why should one person like that be allowed to disrupt the entire bus?

Interestingly, GNE's conditions of carriage state they reserve the right to to refuse entry/travel to drunks, druggies, and those who are just of a poor personal hygiene. A good move in my opinion...

(17 Aug 2014, 10:47 am)Half Pint wrote The bus would have to come off anyway to be cleaned so really what disruption, you want a clean bus don't you? If a spare bus can be put out to transfer passengers to the destination the mileage, which is most important is not being lost! Time can be gained back while that bus is out and cleaned to which can be put to point A for the spare bus to transfer passengers which takes 2-3minutes at that?

The disruption is that other passengers travelling on that service aren't getting to their intended destination on time or reaching their connections. May not be too much of an issue for a shopping trip or whatever, but it would certainly impact commuters. You say *if* a spare bus can be put out. Can it always be put out? and what is the turnaround on that? I'd estimate you'd lose 20-30 minutes to get a spare bus put out and in service, but that's on the occasion a spare can be put out. What about during peak times when the fleets are fully utilised to run scholars and works services? Or on an evening when you have a skeleton staff, which also impacts the time taken to get a replacement out?

(17 Aug 2014, 11:20 am)aureolin wrote Are they tied down and force fed alcohol like? It's their choice to get rat arsed and in a state that they're likely to vomit on public transport. Why should one person like that be allowed to disrupt the entire bus?

Interestingly, GNE's conditions of carriage state they reserve the right to to refuse entry/travel to drunks, druggies, and those who are just of a poor personal hygiene. A good move in my opinion...

Hear, hear! They shouldn't - it's selfish, if nothing else.

A great move. Could think of one or two people who lack personal hygiene who are permitted to travel, but nevertheless...

(17 Aug 2014, 11:15 am)Michael wrote Maybe but that's not the right way to go about cleaning sick up on a bus, it has to be cleaned correctly with the correct stuff, if not people could pick up what ever they had - if its illness.

Well this seems to have gone a little bit off the original subject but what I will say is that the bus that was withdrawn from service was going to be withdrawn anyway as it was already running late and because it was going to be time corrected they took the opportunity to have it cleaned as on that day we had no spare buses. South Shields only have 7 - 8 spare buses which in crude having 5 docks per day then you have your long term VOR buses which reduces how many dock buses can be off which usually means that the dock buses end up in service time it can be changed with a dock bus that has been done.

(17 Aug 2014, 11:27 am)mrnut85 wrote Well this seems to have gone a little bit off the original subject but what I will say is that the bus that was withdrawn from service was going to be withdrawn anyway as it was already running late and because it was going to be time corrected they took the opportunity to have it cleaned as on that day we had no spare buses. South Shields only have 7 - 8 spare buses which in crude having 5 docks per day then you have your long term VOR buses which reduces how many dock buses can be off which usually means that the dock buses end up in service time it can be changed with a dock bus that has been done.

I was just saying that a mop and bucket isnt good enough... lol

It has gone out off subject a tad haha

(17 Aug 2014, 11:20 am)aureolin wrote Are they tied down and force fed alcohol like? It's their choice to get rat arsed and in a state that they're likely to vomit on public transport. Why should one person like that be allowed to disrupt the entire bus?

Interestingly, GNE's conditions of carriage state they reserve the right to to refuse entry/travel to drunks, druggies, and those who are just of a poor personal hygiene. A good move in my opinion...


The disruption is that other passengers travelling on that service aren't getting to their intended destination on time or reaching their connections. May not be too much of an issue for a shopping trip or whatever, but it would certainly impact commuters. You say *if* a spare bus can be put out. Can it always be put out? and what is the turnaround on that? I'd estimate you'd lose 20-30 minutes to get a spare bus put out and in service, but that's on the occasion a spare can be put out. What about during peak times when the fleets are fully utilised to run scholars and works services? Or on an evening when you have a skeleton staff, which also impacts the time taken to get a replacement out?

Sometimes sending a spare bus can't always be done for example the time someone was sick on the 7 to New College one morning which happened just outside Croxdale so it was too far for Darlington or Durham depot to send out another bus so we would have to get the next 7 which is almost 20 minutes behind and terminates at Durham Bus Station and we'd all have to get another bus to get to Framwellgate Moor and of course you end joining a queue of other people who are late for college and of course when the 64 turns up its a single decker so you have a seating bus load from the 7 and other passengers trying to get on with not enough space for everyone so we get left behind and have to wait ages for another one and before you know it it is 0930 and you are 30 minutes late for college and you have to miss out your first lesson.

I think there is a difference between someone hoying up off the drink and someone being sick because of the heat etc.

How an operator would implement a penalty system and differentiate between genuine (unplanned) illness and someone who is off their faces, is another thing.

Not sure someone who is genuinely and unexpectedly ill, should pay a fine - whatever the inconvenience is to the operator.

I have been on a few buses that have been 'fouled' as a passenger.
Twice I ended up on a United Olympian (723 probably), that had the upstairs front window pebble dashed.

Another time, it would have been a GNE (or predecessor), the back seats were taped off, like a crime scene.
The bus stunk, but remained in service.

Then you have the empty beer bottles/cans that have been p!ssed in...

(17 Aug 2014, 12:59 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote I think there is a difference between someone hoying up off the drink and someone being sick because of the heat etc.

How an operator would implement a penalty system and differentiate between genuine (unplanned) illness and someone who is off their faces, is another thing.

Not sure someone who is genuinely and unexpectedly ill, should pay a fine - whatever the inconvenience is to the operator.

I have been on a few buses that have been 'fouled' as a passenger.
Twice I ended up on a United Olympian (723 probably), that had the upstairs front window pebble dashed.

Another time, it would have been a GNE (or predecessor), the back seats were taped off, like a crime scene.
The bus stunk, but remained in service.

Then you have the empty beer bottles/cans that have been p!ssed in...

It doesn't really inconvenience the operator at all, aside from the light mileage incurred from the depot to the nearest point to the depot for that service...

It inconveniences customers the most. As you say, these buses stink. Smelling sick makes me feel sick. It's these customers who are often paying for day, week, monthly and annual tickets who are having to endure an uncomfortable bus journey as a result of someone else - and if the bus has to be removed from service where another bus isn't available (as in the recent case which prompted this discussion), it inconveniences all those customers who are stood at a bus stop like a numpty waiting for a bus to show up.

(17 Aug 2014, 2:30 pm)Dan wrote It doesn't really inconvenience the operator at all, aside from the light mileage incurred from the depot to the nearest point to the depot for that service...

It inconveniences customers the most. As you say, these buses stink. Smelling sick makes me feel sick. It's these customers who are often paying for day, week, monthly and annual tickets who are having to endure an uncomfortable bus journey as a result of someone else - and if the bus has to be removed from service where another bus isn't available (as in the recent case which prompted this discussion), it inconveniences all those customers who are stood at a bus stop like a numpty waiting for a bus to show up.

So if a passenger has paid 80 plus quid for a month ticket is for what ever reason sick do they get tarred with this 'you shouldn't be permitted to travel as your just a problem'

(17 Aug 2014, 2:36 pm)mrnut85 wrote So if a passenger has paid 80 plus quid for a month ticket is for what ever reason sick do they get tarred with this 'you shouldn't be permitted to travel as your just a problem'

There's only so much I can say before we repeatedly cover the same ground and the debate gets a bit lifeless, but what I will say, is that you compare the above situation to taxis.

If you, on average, spend £80 to use taxis each month, and you happen to be sick once, you'd have to fork out the £30 penalty fare regardless of whether it was your fault because you'd consumed too much alcohol, or because of a genuine surprise illness which came about. What's the difference between that and on the bus?

(17 Aug 2014, 2:30 pm)Dan wrote It doesn't really inconvenience the operator at all, aside from the light mileage incurred from the depot to the nearest point to the depot for that service...

It inconveniences customers the most. As you say, these buses stink. Smelling sick makes me feel sick. It's these customers who are often paying for day, week, monthly and annual tickets who are having to endure an uncomfortable bus journey as a result of someone else - and if the bus has to be removed from service where another bus isn't available (as in the recent case which prompted this discussion), it inconveniences all those customers who are stood at a bus stop like a numpty waiting for a bus to show up.

Of course it inconveniences the operator (as well as the passenger) - that is why the penalty fare is put in force by taxi operators.
The vehicle has to be taken out of service, cleaned, disinfected etc - whilst a replacement vehicle is sourced and dropped into place (with potentially a replacement driver at the wheel - possibly starting a shift earlier than planned, leading to problems further into his/her shift once hours are up).

Then there is any associated admin to complete for lost mileage etc

The inconvenience for the operator is massive.

(17 Aug 2014, 3:24 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Of course it inconveniences the operator (as well as the passenger) - that is why the penalty fare is put in force by taxi operators.
The vehicle has to be taken out of service, cleaned, disinfected etc - whilst a replacement vehicle is sourced and dropped into place (with potentially a replacement driver at the wheel - possibly starting a shift earlier than planned, leading to problems further into his/her shift once hours are up).

Then there is any associated admin to complete for lost mileage etc

The inconvenience for the operator is massive.

I covered vehicles being taken out of service and the associated costs with another vehicle travelling light to the nearest point to the depot where that route serves in my post.

Buses are cleaned every night. Being done in the middle of the day isn't too much of a problem... Although the clean may not be as extensive, adding a little bit of disinfectant isn't too difficult. Replacement driver? Go North East has plenty of leading drivers for that - they wouldn't start their shift earlier than planned. I'm sure it'll work similarly with other bus operators too. The associated admin with lost mileage would be treated the same way as any other issue which causes lost mileage. I'm sure it's not too difficult...

I stand by what I said - very little inconvenience to the operator, and it's more so passengers that are inconvenienced. Penalty charges for the above would make up for any inconvenience to the operator, anyway...

(17 Aug 2014, 2:52 pm)Dan wrote There's only so much I can say before we repeatedly cover the same ground and the debate gets a bit lifeless, but what I will say, is that you compare the above situation to taxis.

If you, on average, spend £80 to use taxis each month, and you happen to be sick once, you'd have to fork out the £30 penalty fare regardless of whether it was your fault because you'd consumed too much alcohol, or because of a genuine surprise illness which came about. What's the difference between that and on the bus?

Buses are a lot easier to clean and wont cost £30. Taxis have carpet flooring meaning more resources have to be used to clean the mess up.

(17 Aug 2014, 3:37 pm)Dan wrote I covered vehicles being taken out of service and the associated costs with another vehicle travelling light to the nearest point to the depot where that route serves in my post.

Buses are cleaned every night. Being done in the middle of the day isn't too much of a problem... Although the clean may not be as extensive, adding a little bit of disinfectant isn't too difficult. Replacement driver? Go North East has plenty of leading drivers for that - they wouldn't start their shift earlier than planned. I'm sure it'll work similarly with other bus operators too. The associated admin with lost mileage would be treated the same way as any other issue which causes lost mileage. I'm sure it's not too difficult...

I stand by what I said - very little inconvenience to the operator, and it's more so passengers that are inconvenienced. Penalty charges for the above would make up for any inconvenience to the operator, anyway...

Stagecoach don't have 'leading drivers'

Creased off reading this.
http://www.theladbible.com/articles/cust...us-replies

(17 Aug 2014, 3:40 pm)Robert wrote Buses are a lot easier to clean and wont cost £30. Taxis have carpet flooring meaning more resources have to be used to clean the mess up.

Not really what I was getting at though... How much the penalty cost is doesn't matter.

(17 Aug 2014, 3:50 pm)mrnut85 wrote Stagecoach don't have 'leading drivers'

If they don't have something similar, Stagecoach (UK?) are rather foolish indeed. I know at Sunderland, supervisors often double up as drivers to cover mileage, as I'm friends with two of them...

EDIT: In fact, I know Lincoln has/had leading drivers - so I'm guessing it's just South Shields rather than Stagecoach UK...

(17 Aug 2014, 4:46 pm)Dan wrote Not really what I was getting at though... How much the penalty cost is doesn't matter.


If they don't have something similar, Stagecoach (UK?) are rather foolish indeed. I know at Sunderland, supervisors often double up as drivers to cover mileage, as I'm friends with two of them...

EDIT: In fact, I know Lincoln has/had leading drivers - so I'm guessing it's just South Shields rather than Stagecoach UK...

I think you'll find its a North East thing, I've worked at Stagecoach for 12 years so don't try and act like you know more than me. Stagecoach have Duty Managers that are in charge of allocating buses making sure buses are on time etc. Next we have Deputy Duty Managers who deal with Twitter, complaints, phone calls ect. The DDM can be used as a driver but this is in an extremely urgent requirement IE if all spare drivers and union are already on the road. Spare drivers are on specific rotas just like the rota I am on, we have 05:00 - 13:30 09:30 - 18:10 and 14:30 - 17:30 and the late shift rota has 15:00 - 24:00.

(17 Aug 2014, 5:16 pm)mrnut85 wrote I think you'll find its a North East thing, I've worked at Stagecoach for 12 years so don't try and act like you know more than me. Stagecoach have Duty Managers that are in charge of allocating buses making sure buses are on time etc. Next we have Deputy Duty Managers who deal with Twitter, complaints, phone calls ect. The DDM can be used as a driver but this is in an extremely urgent requirement IE if all spare drivers and union are already on the road. Spare drivers are on specific rotas just like the rota I am on, we have 05:00 - 13:30 09:30 - 18:10 and 14:30 - 17:30 and the late shift rota has 15:00 - 24:00.

So what you're saying is that they have something similar...

(17 Aug 2014, 5:19 pm)aureolin wrote So what you're saying is that they have something similar...

No, if I was saying that I would've said 'stagecoach have something similar' but I didn't

(17 Aug 2014, 5:20 pm)mrnut85 wrote No, if I was saying that I would've said 'stagecoach have something similar' but I didn't

So what is the point you're making? Are you telling us that South Shields also have non-driving staff that can double up as driving staff if there's an urgent requirement to do so?

(17 Aug 2014, 5:16 pm)mrnut85 wrote I think you'll find its a North East thing, I've worked at Stagecoach for 12 years so don't try and act like you know more than me. Stagecoach have Duty Managers that are in charge of allocating buses making sure buses are on time etc. Next we have Deputy Duty Managers who deal with Twitter, complaints, phone calls ect. The DDM can be used as a driver but this is in an extremely urgent requirement IE if all spare drivers and union are already on the road. Spare drivers are on specific rotas just like the rota I am on, we have 05:00 - 13:30 09:30 - 18:10 and 14:30 - 17:30 and the late shift rota has 15:00 - 24:00.

Now, now... This isn't a game of "Who knows the most", so don't turn it into that...

All I'm saying is that two of my family friends at Sunderland who are supervisors (clearly it might be a different title as you've gained this wisdom through working for the company for twelve years) are usually out and about in the City Centre making sure things are on time. You see similar at Blackett Street in Newcastle. You'll find these individuals at any events. When there were concerts at the Stadium of Light, these individuals guided people to the Wheatsheaf bus stop to get them home. There's a group of around five of them, and they're also found at the air show each and every year.

Stagecoach North East: 22082 / NK54BHA by danielgrahamm, on Flickr

These members of staff also double up as revenue protection staff, so they really do have a lot of variety and there's no set job that they do.

There have been times where they've gone out to cover mileage in another vehicle, as a result of a breakdown or something similar. Sunderland services are cross-city, so if there's a breakdown in the South of Sunderland, these individuals often take a vehicle to the North side of Sunderland and continue the service.

(17 Aug 2014, 5:19 pm)aureolin wrote So what you're saying is that they have something similar...

I think that's the polite way of putting it - because I think it works slightly different at Sunderland to what it does at South Shields...

What I've described above entails some of the duties of a leading driver, so Stagecoach North East definitely have something similar (or Sunderland does, at the very least)...