Will undertake a proper audit tomorrow, but...

The 23 which departs Sunderland at 0837 came in with 11 passengers, departed with none. X7, off memory, came in with 14.

I've seen no other 23s today, but the 24 I saw at approximately 1030 and 1230. One carried 3 passengers, other carried 4.

Should take a audit at Peterlee bus station not Sunderland interchange, true boardings of arriva services is better at Peterlee not all passengers travel all the way to final destination at Sunderland interchange.

Only person who knows the loadings of arriva services to Sunderland is Arriva themselves.

(24 Sep 2014, 3:14 pm)cbma06 wrote Should take a audit at Peterlee bus station not Sunderland interchange, true boardings of arriva services is better at Peterlee not all passengers travel all the way to final destination at Sunderland interchange

But the whole point I'm making here is that the current level of passenger numbers is not sufficient to justify an express service from Sunderland to Peterlee - it's clear that Arriva are wanting to take patronage from Go North East by offering a very similar service, and boils down to competition between the two companies not being to benefit to customers, and rather to get back at the other operator for introducing a competing route elsewhere in the region.

Monitoring the loadings in and out of Sunderland is the only way to determine what the passenger numbers will be like on the X21, as in reality, the only thing that should happen is that further passenger numbers are taken from services 23/24, to boost loadings on the X21...

What I would do after or before Arriva made the changes is:

service 23 same route but diverted to go into Dalton Park replacing service 24 ( or new 22).

service 24 (or new service 22) terminating at Peterlee but then once an hour continue to Sunderland as X21 providing a 30 minute service X21, timetable would have to be adjusted to fit the 30 minute frequency for X21.

so to Sunderland their will be service 23 every 30 minutes going the full route and all stops and their will be a X21 every 30 minutes to Sunderland aswell as express.

(24 Sep 2014, 3:18 pm)Dan wrote But the whole point I'm making here is that the current level of passenger numbers is not sufficient to justify an express service from Sunderland to Peterlee - it's clear that Arriva are wanting to take patronage from Go North East by offering a very similar service, and boils down to competition between the two companies not being to benefit to customers, and rather to get back at the other operator for introducing a competing route elsewhere in the region.

Monitoring the loadings in and out of Sunderland is the only way to determine what the passenger numbers will be like on the X21, as in reality, the only thing that should happen is that further passenger numbers are taken from services 23/24, to boost loadings on the X21...

How do you know people from Wingate and Sedgefield won't use the direct link to Sunderland?
You don't know that the X21 will fail. 

(24 Sep 2014, 3:34 pm)Tom wrote How do you know people from Wingate and Sedgefield won't use the direct link to Sunderland?
You don't know that the X21 will fail. 

Who said it was going to fail?

I've asked how long do people think it will take for the X21 to be cut (though this could be expanded to the current 23/24 services too).

At the end of the day, Arriva isn't offering anything different from what Go North East is offering. They could have offered a Sunday service so that they could appeal to that market, but they haven't taken the commercial risk. As such, the X21 shouldn't attract any new passengers, other than Concessionary Pass holders who may just get that bus because it comes at a time more convenient to them (thereby taking a few passengers from the X7). This means that the passengers on services 23/24 will be spread out even further and the loadings in and out of Sunderland will be even more dire than usual.

But the whole point I'm making here is that the current level of passenger numbers is not sufficient to justify an express service from Sunderland to Peterlee - it's clear that Arriva are wanting to take patronage from Go North East by offering a very similar service, and boils down to competition between the two companies not being to benefit to customers, and rather to get back at the other operator for introducing a competing route elsewhere in the region.

 Monitoring the loadings in and out of Sunderland is the only way to determine what the passenger numbers will be like on the X21, as in reality, the only thing that should happen is that further passenger numbers are taken from services 23/24, to boost loadings on the X21...

Yes, you do kind of have to view the passenger numbers from Sunderland, but if the 21/X21 is marketed as a through service like the 21/31 & 21A/31A used to be you will have people travelling from further than Peterlee using the service.
The X21 may take some passengers from the 23/24 (well 22/23 from next month) but the people of Wheatley Hill have been wanting a service to Sunderland again, everytime I've used the 24 not many people have done the full route. Passenger numbers and passenger trends will likely to change when the 22 starts going to Sunderland instead of the 24 and the 21/31 used to carry a decent amount of passengers between Wheatley Hill and Sunderland in the past.

(24 Sep 2014, 3:36 pm)Jimmi wrote Yes, you do kind of have to view the passenger numbers from Sunderland, but if the 21/X21 is marketed as a through service like the 21/31 & 21A/31A used to be you will have people travelling from further than Peterlee using the service.
The X21 may take some passengers from the 23/24 (well 22/23 from next month) but the people of Wheatley Hill have been wanting a service to Sunderland again, everytime I've used the 24 not many people have done the full route. Passenger numbers and passenger trends will likely to change when the 22 starts going to Sunderland instead of the 24 and the 21/31 used to carry a decent amount of passengers between Wheatley Hill and Sunderland in the past.

....so why were the 31/31A axed?

I'm assuming the resources were pumped into extra 23/24s, but it suggests to me that they weren't doing something right with those services!

What I would do after or before Arriva made the changes is:

 service 23 same route but diverted to go into Dalton Park replacing service 24 ( or new 22).
 service 24 (or new service 22) terminating at Peterlee but then once an hour continue to Sunderland as X21 providing a 30 minute service X21, timetable would have to be adjusted to fit the 30 minute frequency for X21.
 so to Sunderland their will be service 23 every 30 minutes going the full route and all stops and their will be a X21 every 30 minutes to Sunderland aswell as express

If you made the 23 any longer than it currently is you'd need to add an extra bus to the PVR.
Also I'm slightly confused would there still be 2 buses an hour from Durham to Hartlepool via Peterlee because when I've seen the 22 heading to Hartlepool has a very good amount of passengers on board.

Since passengers have been campaigning to get a direct service back to Sunderland from Thornley and Wheatley Hill, I wonder how long it will take for passengers from Haswell,Ludworth and Sherburn to start campaigning for a direct service to Sunderland back since their service 24 will be going to Hartlepool instead.

....so why were the 31/31A axed?

 I'm assuming the resources were pumped into extra 23/24s, but it suggests to me that they weren't doing something right with those services!

I think it was maybe to pump more of there resources into the 22/23/24 and reduce the PVR of the 21/31 & 21A/31A PVR from 4 each down to 3 each so saving two buses and I think the two buses saved from those services went onto the 22 as it used to take less than an hour to get from Durham to Hartlepool.

(24 Sep 2014, 3:43 pm)Jimmi wrote If you made the 23 any longer than it currently is you'd need to add an extra bus to the PVR.
Also I'm slightly confused would there still be 2 buses an hour from Durham to Hartlepool via Peterlee because when I've seen the 22 heading to Hartlepool has a very good amount of passengers on board.

Since passengers have been campaigning to get a direct service back to Sunderland from Thornley and Wheatley Hill, I wonder how long it will take for passengers from Haswell,Ludworth and Sherburn to start campaigning for a direct service to Sunderland back since their service 24 will be going to Hartlepool instead. Big Grin

I thought that, but I think most people from these areas only travel between Durham and Peterlee.

service 22 (new 24) will be still every 30 minutes Hartelpool to Durham.

service 24 (new 22) will terminate at peterlee bus station with one of them be forward travel to Sunderland as an X21, providing 30 minute X21 frequency.

while the other 24 (new 22) terminate at peterlee, which would save at least 1 bus which could go onto service 23 if need be if times are tight.

I think the 31/31A was axed to Sunderland because Arriva introduced service 24 between Peterlee and Sunderland as a replacement

Before the 31/31A was withdrawn either the 23 or 24? Used to go straight down the A19 on Sunderland bound journeys to Dalton Park.

(24 Sep 2014, 4:01 pm)Jimmi wrote Before the 31/31A was withdrawn either the 23 or 24? Used to go straight down the A19 on Sunderland bound journeys to Dalton Park.

That was service 23 did that between Easington village and dalton park, it ended because of the volume of traffic on a19 at the time. Service 24 started when 31/31a was withdrawn

That was service 23 did that between Easington village and dalton park, it ended because of the volume of traffic on a19 at the time. Service 24 started when 31/31a was withdrawn

I thought there was a 24A or 24B that went to Sunderland but I may be wrong.
So Arriva stopped sending a bus down the A19 because of traffic and now they are sending another bus down the A19.
Hoping Solos won't be going down the A19 as they sound awful when I've had them on the X24 & X66.

unless am getting confussed then it was the following:

service 24A was Durham-Peterlee-Easington via Oakerside Drive and round circle between Peterlee-Easington-Peterlee then back to Durham. only went to Easington due to the withdrawl of service 240 at the time and passengers complained to the MP for Easington.

service 24B solo bus was Durham-Peterlee via Passfield Way.

cant remember what service 24, I think it might of been Durham to Hartlepool via Peterlee.

the numbers changed that much down here :s

(24 Sep 2014, 3:18 pm)Dan wrote But the whole point I'm making here is that the current level of passenger numbers is not sufficient to justify an express service from Sunderland to Peterlee - it's clear that Arriva are wanting to take patronage from Go North East by offering a very similar service, and boils down to competition between the two companies not being to benefit to customers, and rather to get back at the other operator for introducing a competing route elsewhere in the region.

Monitoring the loadings in and out of Sunderland is the only way to determine what the passenger numbers will be like on the X21, as in reality, the only thing that should happen is that further passenger numbers are taken from services 23/24, to boost loadings on the X21...

Wasn't this Mrs Thatcher's Government's dream when it came to deregulating the bus market?

Perhaps it's a bit early to see it's of no benefit to customers. I haven't seen any fare information yet. It could be 50p cheaper than GNE, between Peterlee and Sunderland for all we know? If that was the case, then that is certainly a benefit to customers.

I'm a huge fan of competition. In my opinion, if nothing else, it gives the dominant operator a big kick up the arse to become even more innovative - and that's not a criticism to current levels of innovation.

(24 Sep 2014, 4:25 pm)cbma06 wrote unless am getting confussed then it was the following:

service 24A was Durham-Peterlee-Easington via Oakerside Drive and round circle between Peterlee-Easington-Peterlee then back to Durham. only went to Easington due to the withdrawl of service 240 at the time and passengers complained to the MP for Easington.

service 24B solo bus was Durham-Peterlee via Passfield Way.

cant remember what service 24, I think it might of been Durham to Hartlepool via Peterlee.

the numbers changed that much down here :s

The network upto October 2012 was as followed:

21/31 Darlington - Peterlee - Sunderland
21a/31a Middlesbrough - Peterlee - Sunderland

22 Durham - Wingate - Hartlepool
23 Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool

24 Durham - Peterlee - Sunderland
24a/b Durham - Peterlee - Sunderland

Peterlee - Hartlepool was every 20 minutes back then (and the 22/23 interworked in Hartlepool - so it went 22 to Hartlepool 23 to Sunderland and Back then back to Durham as a 22) while the Peterlee - Sunderland corridor was 4 buses an hour - sadly however they ran in a bunch of 2 ie the 31a followed the 23 and the 31 followed the 24. The network was then recast to change that with the 23/24 increased to every 30 minutes each replacing the 31/31a.

On VOSA:

PB0002717/219 - ARRIVA DURHAM COUNTY LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP

Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Darlington and Peterlee given service number 21 effective from 26-Oct-2014. To amend Timetable.

PB0002032/336 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP
Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Newcastle and Morpeth given service number 44 effective from 28-Sep-2014. To amend Route and Stopping Places.

VOSA:

PB0002032/478 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP
Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Carlisle and Haltwhistle given service number 185 effective from 15-Sep-2014. To amend Route.

PB0002032/489 - ARRIVA NORTHUMBRIA LTD, 1 ADMIRAL WAY, DOXFORD INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS PARK, SUNDERLAND, SR3 3XP
Registration Accepted by SN
Starting Point: North Shields
Finish Point: Byker
Via:
Service Number: 900
Service Type: Limited Stop
Effective Date: 05-OCT-2014
Other Details: Metro Replacement

(23 Sep 2014, 4:40 pm)Jimmi wrote New Durham bus timetables on Durham pinder.
http://durham.pindarcreative.co.uk/announcements.asp

Still no new 22 timetable... 

(01 Oct 2014, 4:26 pm)Michael wrote Still no new 22 timetable... 

I think their still working the timetable out with DCC for the secured journeys

Still no new 22 timetable...

Still no 61 timetable either.

(01 Oct 2014, 4:26 pm)Michael wrote Still no new 22 timetable... 

Since the 24 runs evenings etc... And service 22 doesn't , the new 24 will goto Hartlepool instead of Sunderland, looks like by the new 24 timetable their are evening journeys from Durham which terminates at Peterlee so maybe these journeys will turn into a 22 Peterlee to Sunderland or another number like 24A etc. scarlet band secured service number 22 will be changing aswell between Peterlee and Hartlepool, would like the short scarlet band 22 as a 58a as it's a through service with number 22.

SERVICE UPDATE: 13a/13b - From Monday 6 October for 5 days, Hewitson Road South will be closed for roadworks Services 13A and 13B should operate via Firthmoor Crescent and Estoril Road South during this closure

Since the 24 runs evenings etc... And service 22 doesn't , the new 24 will goto Hartlepool instead of Sunderland, looks like by the new 24 timetable their are evening journeys from Durham which terminates at Peterlee so maybe these journeys will turn into a 22 Peterlee to Sunderland or another number like 24A etc. scarlet band secured service number 22 will be changing aswell between Peterlee and Hartlepool, would like the short scarlet band 22 as a 58a as it's a through service with number 22.

Looking on Traveline the 24 appears to be Durham - Peterlee only on evenings and the 22 is Peterlee - Sunderland only.