When the 21/21a/21b ran, they were what, every 10mins between Pilgrim St and Chester? The services then diverged.
Traffic hasn't really increased over the last 7 years and I can't see passenger numbers have increased in that time, to an amount whereby the 21 can't cope.

Prior to that, the 7xx series (and 231) were supplemented by the local Gateshead services, from just a few metres down the road at Worswick Street. They all had a common route on a 6/7 min frequency, before again they diverged.
Traffic may have changed slightly since then.

Why then, does the service suffer so badly now? Does the 21 need to be so frequent? Does it need to stay in its current Eldon Square - Chester/Durham guise? It can only be because the company have made a rod for their own back, by stubbornly persevering with the service over the years.

(31 Dec 2014, 2:58 pm)Dan wrote I would also like to see this happen.

With increased layover - every 10 minutes to Chester-le-Street, every 20 to Durham. Hopefully get one (or both) of the branded Volvo B7s to become spares again, making gtom happy as fewer Presidents and Lolynes would appear!

Despite the X21 also running the route, the 21 still picks up very good loads at Chester from what I see. At peak times, it's not uncommon to leave full to the brim, on it's current 15 min frequency.

(31 Dec 2014, 3:58 pm)Dan wrote As far as I am aware, the Angel carries far more passengers than any other service in the North East. It is for this reason why I think Go North East is reluctant to make any changes to service 21, in case of any loss of patronage to competitors as a result of a possible bad decision.

Arriva is currently refurbishing buses to "MAX" specification, featuring the provision of free Wi-Fi and e-leather seats, for allocation to services X1/X2 (the latter of which, as you know, competes with Go North East's 21/X21 services). Arriva will quite rightly expect market growth from this upgrade in specification, and there is a pretty limited scope from which the market growth can come from... Go North East management isn't stupid, and will appreciate that there's a possibility for loss of custom, so I think they'll know that they can't sit back for much longer.

That is correct. I'm sure we had this conversation a while back, but I think some of us listed our top 10 most revenue-earning services from GNE. The Angel was at the top of everyone's list.

I have also been told on numerous occasions that it earns the most and is the most popular in terms of numbers.

(31 Dec 2014, 6:46 pm)aureolin wrote Despite the X21 also running the route, the 21 still picks up very good loads at Chester from what I see. At peak times, it's not uncommon to leave full to the brim, on it's current 15 min frequency.

Try any of the 11:09, 11:24, 11:39 and 11:54 departures from Chester on a Fri/Sat morning, they come from Durham and by the time you are at Birtley there are people are standing! I've seen people refused as close as The Angel!

(31 Dec 2014, 3:14 pm)Andreos1 wrote Keep the frequency as it is, but:

21 - Pilgrim Street to Durham. Quick in/out over Tyne Bridge.
22 - Eldon Square to Chester.
X21 - Eldon Square to Bishop.

I'd love to see that happen. Or Pilgrim Street/Blackett Street/Newgate Street, and back out over the High Level Bridge. Would practically stop at the door of Eldon Square still that way too.

(31 Dec 2014, 5:30 pm)gtom wrote Be interesting to see what they come up with. Arriva are quicker (though obviously an express - but still picks up in key points in Birtley, Allerdene and Low Fell) and cheaper

GNE moved the 21 to Eldon Square because passengers liked and wanted Eldon Square.  The 723 always stopped there and the 724 (aside the original OK service stopping on Newgate St but right by the door for Eldon Square)

If you move the 21 to Pilgrim St and reliability doesn't improve (likely because of the traffic issues it encouters) your going to end up with passengers being cold wet and miserable on Pilgrim St as opposed to warm, dry and miserable in Eldon Square

The REEEEEEEAL issue and one for 2015 to seriously consider is the end of the High Level Bridge being nigh....that will bring up serious questions for bus operators

I think Arriva could do themselves a favour really, and start serving all stops. I doubt they would mind.

High Level Bridge is an interesting one, as going via the Tyne Bridge would cause problems for those making a leg of journey via Rail. Out via Central Station and the Redheugh Bridge would be a solution to that, but what happens if you get a problem like a few days ago? There was no 100 for over 30 minutes, because traffic was backed up right between the Metrocentre, Redheugh Bridge and St James Boulevard. I'd imagine the 10/10A/10B were hit hard that day too - 29th I think it was?

I wonder how this would work?


1  21 21 21  1  21 21 21
Newcastle, Pilgrim Street: 00 05 15 25 30 35 45 55
Gateshead, High Street: -- 10 20 30  --   40 50 00
Gateshead, Interchange:              10 15 25 35 40 45 55 05
Durham Road Saltwell Pk:            14 21 31 41 44 51 01 11
Low Fell: 20 27 37 47 50 57 07 17
Birtley: -- 40 50 00  --  10 20 30
Chester-le-Street Black Horse: -- 57 09 17  --  29 37 49
Plawsworth:                                    --  --  15  --   --  35  --  55
Framwellgate Moor: --  --  22  --   --  42 --   02
Durham Bus Station: --  --  27  --   --  47 --   07

Durham Bus Station: --  --  40  --   --  00 --   20
Framwellgate Moor: --  --  46  --   --  06 --   26
Plawsworth: --  --  53  --   --  13 --   33
Chester-le-Street Black Horse: --  51 01 11 --  21 31 41
Birtley: --  06 16 26 --  36 46 56
Low Fell: --  20 30 40 --  50 00 10
Durham Road Saltwell Park:        --  24 34 44 --  54 04 14
Gateshead Interchange: --  30 40 50 --  00 10 20
Newcastle Pilgrim Street: --  38 48 58 --  08 18 28

I can't get my head around why there would be any complaints regarding any of the major services terminating and/or picking up on Pilgrim Street or Blackett Street. Literally, all they have to do, is walk across, through that little garden area and they're in Eldon Square Shopping Centre!

Or, as an alternative, make the absolute top earners stop in Eldon Square, and let the other GNE services terminate on Pilgrim Street or Blackett Street. That would be ideal for customers, and generally look best, if Service 21, Service 56, Service X1, etc all terminated in Eldon Square Bus Station.

(31 Dec 2014, 7:00 pm)Tom wrote I wonder how this would work?


1  21 21 21  1  21 21 21
Newcastle, Pilgrim Street: 00 05 15 25 30 35 45 55
Gateshead, High Street: -- 10 20 30  --   40 50 00
Gateshead, Interchange:              10 15 25 35 40 45 55 05
Durham Road Saltwell Pk:            14 21 31 41 44 51 01 11
Low Fell: 20 27 37 47 50 57 07 17
Birtley: -- 40 50 00  --  10 20 30
Chester-le-Street Black Horse: -- 57 09 17  --  29 37 49
Plawsworth:                                    --  --  15  --   --  35  --  55
Framwellgate Moor: --  --  22  --   --  42 --   02
Durham Bus Station: --  --  27  --   --  47 --   07

Durham Bus Station: --  --  40  --   --  00 --   20
Framwellgate Moor: --  --  46  --   --  06 --   26
Plawsworth: --  --  53  --   --  13 --   33
Chester-le-Street Black Horse: --  51 01 11 --  21 31 41
Birtley: --  06 16 26 --  36 46 56
Low Fell: --  20 30 40 --  50 00 10
Durham Road Saltwell Park:        --  24 34 44 --  54 04 14
Gateshead Interchange: --  30 40 50 --  00 10 20
Newcastle Pilgrim Street: --  38 48 58 --  08 18 28

13 minutes layover in Durham Bus Station...I think they currently get 12? And cutting the frequency to every 20 minutes on the Durham corridor, would turn more customers to the X2, if that remained unchanged, the departures from Durham in the direction of Newcastle on that long stretch would be...

#21 - 00
#X21 - 09
#21 - 20
#X2 - 21
#X21 - 39
#21 - 40
#X2 - 51

I can see 7 buses an hour towards Chester, then onto Newcastle could work, but would reducing Service 21 to every 20 minutes from Durham be beneficial? It's good enough loadings whenever I'm on it from Durham, and while this would make loadings more profitable, could it not overcrowd at peak times?

(31 Dec 2014, 7:07 pm)MarcTheA4 wrote 13 minutes layover in Durham Bus Station...I think they currently get 12? And cutting the frequency to every 20 minutes on the Durham corridor, would turn more customers to the X2, if that remained unchanged, the departures from Durham in the direction of Newcastle on that long stretch would be...

#21 - 00
#X21 - 09
#21 - 20
#X2 - 21
#X21 - 39
#21 - 40
#X2 - 51

I can see 7 buses an hour towards Chester, then onto Newcastle could work, but would reducing Service 21 to every 20 minutes from Durham be beneficial? It's good enough loadings whenever I'm on it from Durham, and while this would make loadings more profitable, could it not overcrowd at peak times?

I'm surprised they haven't implemented some part day boards on the 21 yet... Could do a morning peak journey then a school run, before returning to the depot for exam/etc, then an afternoon school and evening peak run and back to depot. Would effectively utilise one of your spares. Happens a lot in South Yorkshire where they have buses out from 6am-9am then 3pm-7pm and used for buses to be on their 28 day inspection etc without impacting on service levels too much.

Just touching on the Pilgrim Street issue again, I wonder how many people in that part of the town travel to Low Fell/Harlow Green and walk up to Eldon Square BS, due to issues/concerns about the 1?
Having a 21 stop there, could actually encourage more people to stay in that part of the town, knowing there should be a frequent Durham Road bus service.

The 1 may assist the 21 when heading north into Newcastle, but I can't see it doing so well southbound - apart from picking up stragglers from St Nicholas Cathedral/High Level Bridge.

Would just like to echo my views regarding Pilgrim Street.

I reckon Pilgrim St would be good for the Chesters, but I would assume most 'casual' passengers/tourists (with the Angel branding, one would assume these give the highest usage) would want to go to Durham on a whim etc. With Eldon Square being right in the heart of Newcastle (you've got Norhumberland Street and lots of other connections at Haymarket and the Metro etc) this would be where most people would want to catch it from, including me! If I had to walk to Pilgrim St (tourists may not know the way and might not be really impressed by how grim it is(!)) to go to Durham I'd simply stick to the Arriva X2 or the GNE X21 (drawbacks to this however are the relatively low frequency and reliability [using knackered presidents] as well as the average Mrs Jones not knowing if the bus serves Durham with having Bishop on the blinds).

Chester I'd assume would have most 'regular' passenger use so this, to keep delays at bay, could use Pilgrim Street as one would think regular commuters would know the way to Newcastle. This could also be used to connect with various other services, ie 56 and 27 as well as Stagecoach city services, X47 etc).

If there are any south of Gateshead, I would say running the Durham services would be priority - unless it's something really bad in Newcastle - run them straight to Eldon Square. Chesters can be allowed to throw people off at Gateshead and then run back to Chester as required however Durhams must keep going.

Or, how about they do a Lothian and install security vaults with clear and well published fare stages? That would quite a way in solving reliability issues on the 21. Change giving is one of the most common factors causing delays on very popular trunk road routes/

(01 Jan 2015, 6:35 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote Or, how about they do a Lothian and install security vaults with clear and well published fare stages? That would quite a way in solving reliability issues on the 21. Change giving is one of the most common factors causing delays on very popular trunk road routes/

As an alternative, how about they just do it like Lothian as a whole? Instead of change giving overall, just don't give change.

Would prevent the problem of having 5ps or asking customers if they could change them a £1 for 10ps.

Could only be a good thing overall, either round up a day saver or day ticket to the pound or 50p.

(01 Jan 2015, 6:35 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote Or, how about they do a Lothian and install security vaults with clear and well published fare stages? That would quite a way in solving reliability issues on the 21. Change giving is one of the most common factors causing delays on very popular trunk road routes/

I like what Bus Companies in Dublin do, correct change only fare boxes, if you aint got the right change, tough...

Whether they still do that, I dont know, I dont remember it being used when I went to Dublin in 2011, though it was in use when I went in 1998

(01 Jan 2015, 6:43 pm)MrFozz wrote I like what Bus Companies in Dublin do, correct change only fare boxes, if you aint got the right change, tough...

Whether they still do that, I dont know, I dont remember it being used when I went to Dublin in 2011, though it was in use when I went in 1998

They still do it on Dublin bus. Correct change box then u claim your change later on from travel centre

(01 Jan 2015, 6:48 pm)Acky81 wrote They still do it on Dublin bus. Correct change box then u claim your change later on from travel centre

Good idea in my opinion, it means the driver is not pissing about having to dish change out and would save a bit time

(01 Jan 2015, 7:09 pm)MrFozz wrote Good idea in my opinion, it means the driver is not pissing about having to dish change out and would save a bit time

See I disagree, as the people that lose out tend to be the ones that pay the most for their fares. If I'm paying £6.90 for a Day Rover, I'd be a bit miffed if I couldn't get change from £10 or even from £7. Until such time that cash machines dispense coins, then I'm not likely to have the correct change all the time.

Besides, it probably takes less time to change £10 for a £6.90 fare, than it does to try and instruct some OAPs, where to place their pass...

Thought up the below suggestion, on the back of the Sunderland - Boldon leg of the X36 not working, which I believe has a lot to do with Metro competition. The below routes would replace lost links (Seaham to Newcastle), as well as providing Penshaw and Boldon with a direct link to Newcastle.


X5 - Seaham - Herrington Burn - Penshaw - Boldon ASDA - Heworth - Newcastle

Starting point would be Seaham Harbour, and then on to Tempest Road, B1287, B1404, B1285, and then Seaton Lane, before heading on to the A19. It'd then come off at the Doxford junction, briefly up the A690 to the Board Inn, turning left just before on to the B1286, serving New Herrington and the burn. It'd then turn off the Shiney Row roundabout on to the A183, serving Shiney Row and Penshaw, before heading back on to the A19 towards Boldon. Coming off at Testos, it'd serve Cineworld and ASDA, by doing a loop of Cotswold Lane/Abingdon Way, before heading back to Testos for the A184. It'd again run non stop, but serving Heworth Metro, and then direct to Newcastle (omitting Gateshead Interchange). 

X5A - Seaham - Herrington Burn - Penshaw - Nissan - Heworth - Newcastle

The same route between Seaham and Penshaw (A183), but rather than serving Boldon, it would omit and instead serve Nissan, via the A1231, Nissan Way, Cherryblossom Way, and the A1290 back to the A19. It'd then continue non-stop to Heworth, and then on to Newcastle.

I'd propose the X5A would only run as morning and evening runs, to coincide with Nissan shift times. Boldon is omitted, as the Nissan connection is already provided by the 50/50A.

After been on London for the weekend I was amazed at how quick people boarded and alighted buses. Cashless buses are the way forward!

To compete with the shuddy 43, 44 and 45 services from Arriva, this would be a good hit particularly with Omnicities:

- Service 341 every 30 mins (60 eve and Sunday) serving X13 route to Manor Walks from Blyth then 43 route to Newcastle.
- Service 342 every 30 mins (60 eve and Sunday) serving 57 route to Manor Walks from North Seaton then 43 route to Newcastle.
- Service 343 every 30 mins (60 Sunday daytime) serving 43 route from Manor Walks to Newcastle.
- Mon to Sat daytime between Crammy and Newcastle = Every 10 mins.
- Evenings between Crammy and Newcastle = Every 30 mins.
- Sundays between Crammy and Newcastle = Every 20 mins.

87 - Wrekenton - Springwell Village - Usworth Sixth Form College - Concord - Blackfell Knoulberry - Oxclose - Washington Galleries - Biddick - Fatfield - Barnwell Langdale Road/Back Lane/Penshaw Lane - Penshaw - Shiney Row - Bournmoor - New Lambton - Newbottle - Houghton le Spring

(07 Jan 2015, 1:45 pm)Malarkey wrote 87 - Wrekenton - Springwell Village - Usworth Sixth Form College - Concord - Blackfell Knoulberry - Oxclose - Washington Galleries - Biddick - Fatfield - Barnwell Langdale Road/Back Lane/Penshaw Lane - Penshaw - Shiney Row - Bournmoor - New Lambton - Newbottle - Houghton le Spring

I had been thinking of a similar idea - an extension of the 67 or 69 into Washington, rather than their current end point.
Maybe just as far as Biddick/Brady Square

81: Hill Park Estate - Jarrow - Lukes Lane Estate - Monkton Lane Estate - Pelaw - Heworth - Leam Lane Estate - Stevenson - Sulgrave - Concord - Galleries - Biddick - Brady Square

A local bus for local people.

(07 Jan 2015, 1:51 pm)Andreos1 wrote I had been thinking of a similar idea - an extension of the 67 or 69 into Washington, rather than their current end point.
Maybe just as far as Biddick/Brady Square

Sure you dont just want to bring back the 638 with slight route alterations.

(07 Jan 2015, 2:03 pm)Malarkey wrote Sure you dont just want to bring back the 638 with slight route alterations.

Well... Now you mention it - the thought did cross my mind!

Obviously the advantages are, that it could ease pressure on the X1, improve connections to the QE etc

(07 Jan 2015, 2:03 pm)Malarkey wrote Sure you dont just want to bring back the 638 with slight route alterations.

To be fair, my suggestion was an uninspired revision of the old 529 route.

(07 Jan 2015, 2:16 pm)MurdnunoC wrote To be fair, my suggestion was an uninspired revision of the old 529 route.

Can't remember that one at all.
Guessing the 291/292 emerged from the Heworth - Galleries section?

Not in the house now so I can't check, but I'm fairly sure that the 291/292 etc emerged from the 19x series of services - possibly the 192/193 to be exact.

The Heworth to Washington section of the 529 was previously numbered 556, then the 526 before that.

(07 Jan 2015, 2:54 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Not in the house now so I can't check, but I'm fairly sure that the 291/292 etc emerged from the 19x series of services - possibly the 192/193 to be exact.

The Heworth to Washington section of the 529 was previously numbered 556, then the 526 before that.

Sorry - meant to say Lingey Lane to Galleries.

Aye, the 291/292 went via Stephenson, Sulgrave, Blue House Lane, but went via Blackfell, whereas this cut through Albany Village Centre.
Sure the 551 went up Blue House Lane and cut through Albany Centre at some point too.

The Sunday version of the 638 followed a similar route too.