(07 Mar 2015, 11:35 pm)aureolin wrote Used to be a massive problem 10-15 years ago, but it shouldn't be a problem at all now, with the introduction of AVL. I don't know if the system works it out automatically, but it'd be easy enough to work out based on distance travelled between two points.

Some depots clearly don't do anything about it though, the bus I get every morning is normally on time, maybe 3 minutes late maximum, however some days it is 5+ late and it is always one of a select group of drivers who clearly couldn't care less about passengers standing in the freezing cold for 10 minutes more than they should be.

(07 Mar 2015, 11:28 pm)Tom wrote They should up the frequency.
Why can't GNE see there is a huge chance for them to introduce a service.

They have, that's the job of the X21. They'll never go South from Durham as the X12 is heavily used by Durham University students (& staff) hence why it runs until 3am on Fri/Sat nights

(08 Mar 2015, 12:31 am)tyresmoke wrote They have, that's the job of the X21. They'll never go South from Durham as the X12 is heavily used by Durham University students (& staff) hence why it runs until 3am on Fri/Sat nights

Well I'd never say never... When Arriva (and Stagecoach NW) neglected their customers on the Tyne Valley, they were sharp to introduce a new express service which soon became rather popular indeed, stealing a lot of customers from the long established 685 service in the process.

Similarly, following the withdrawal of Arriva's 31 (etc), there was a gap in the market for journeys from Sunderland to Middlesbrough. As they had connections at all ends (albeit very few at the southern section), it's worked very well and proven to be a commercial success.

Resources are easily allocated elsewhere to allow for new commercial ventures to take place. It's the market research prior which determines whether it actually happens or not...

(08 Mar 2015, 7:58 am)Dan wrote Well I'd never say never... When Arriva (and Stagecoach NW) neglected their customers on the Tyne Valley, they were sharp to introduce a new express service which soon became rather popular indeed, stealing a lot of customers from the long established 685 service in the process.

Similarly, following the withdrawal of Arriva's 31 (etc), there was a gap in the market for journeys from Sunderland to Middlesbrough. As they had connections at all ends (albeit very few at the southern section), it's worked very well and proven to be a commercial success.

Resources are easily allocated elsewhere to allow for new commercial ventures to take place. It's the market research prior which determines whether it actually happens or not...

I think that there are other services in the North East that GNE are better equipped to tackle before the X12 - Northumberland for example.

It would be a mighty vehicle investment required to compete on the X12 (estimate at least 6 vehicles to even match frequency), with no close operating depot to aid it. The X85 worked as it had a base at each end to help with issues during the early and critical part of its life.

Realistically, due to the geography and lack of connections south of Durham, I suspect there is very little weight in any business case. The X12 would probably bear the compeititon well, due to the high levels of local connections in Durham and Teesside that feed into it.

I agree that it needs to more work, but I suspect an entry onto the Durham to Middlesbrough coridoor would provoke an 'OK1' type reaction. Extra buses would be sourced im sure.

I was once told that Arriva are limited to changing the actual timetable once a year due to agreements with Durham University - who, to be fair, play a big hand in what happens on there these days. I'd be very surprised if a revised timetable doesn't happen to appear sometime over the summer, as has been the case over the past two years.

On the bigger picture however, since the days of EC operation on the old X1, there is more time to operate the service compared to back then, but its fairly obvious that the X12 is carrying significantly more passengers than it did back in say 2008. Its not surprising that timekeeping issues are arising again due to sheer passenger volume.

In my observations, the recent repaints (ex-Durham P&R Solos, SC E200s, MPDs, 1206 (reverse version) etc) have received the livery with no white strips along the cream, and no yellow stripe along the bottom. Is this temporary or the newer design of the livery?

(08 Mar 2015, 9:03 am)RobinHood wrote I think that there are other services in the North East that GNE are better equipped to tackle before the X12 - Northumberland for example.

It would be a mighty vehicle investment required to compete on the X12 (estimate at least 6 vehicles to even match frequency), with no close operating depot to aid it. The X85 worked as it had a base at each end to help with issues during the early and critical part of its life.

Realistically, due to the geography and lack of connections south of Durham, I suspect there is very little weight in any business case. The X12 would probably bear the compeititon well, due to the high levels of local connections in Durham and Teesside that feed into it.

I agree that it needs to more work, but I suspect an entry onto the Durham to Middlesbrough coridoor would provoke an 'OK1' type reaction. Extra buses would be sourced im sure.

I was once told that Arriva are limited to changing the actual timetable once a year due to agreements with Durham University - who, to be fair, play a big hand in what happens on there these days. I'd be very surprised if a revised timetable doesn't happen to appear sometime over the summer, as has been the case over the past two years.

On the bigger picture however, since the days of EC operation on the old X1, there is more time to operate the service compared to back then, but its fairly obvious that the X12 is carrying significantly more passengers than it did back in say 2008. Its not surprising that timekeeping issues are arising again due to sheer passenger volume.

Go North East have there Chester le Street Depot in which a potential Service could operate from to provide competition with the X2/X12, and they could further utilise the Peterlee outstation also if they wanted to do so to store a few Vehicles, thus decreasing the running costs in Dead Mileage from Chester, so for example the Peterlee operations would do Journeys starting in Middlesborough/Durham, and Chester from Durham/Chester and Newcastle, just an example but there could be potential for competition along the Durham to Middlesborough corridor in my opinion, come to think of it didnt Go North East previously operate this route anyway before Arriva recieved there Durham/Darlington operations.

(08 Mar 2015, 7:55 pm)Malarkey wrote Go North East have there Chester le Street Depot in which a potential Service could operate from to provide competition with the X2/X12, and they could further utilise the Peterlee outstation also if they wanted to do so to store a few Vehicles, thus decreasing the running costs in Dead Mileage from Chester, so for example the Peterlee operations would do Journeys starting in Middlesborough/Durham, and Chester from Durham/Chester and Newcastle, just an example but there could be potential for competition along the Durham to Middlesborough corridor in my opinion, come to think of it didnt Go North East previously operate this route anyway before Arriva recieved there Durham/Darlington operations.

No, Go North East and United used to share what is now the X12/X2 (back when it was the X1) and also shared the X10. Then they split with United/Arriva retaining the X1 and GNE the X10.

There is next-to-no potential for competition on the Durham to Middlesbrough route as the bulk of the route has a large level of service already (Durham-Coxhoe is every 10 minutes with Arriva on 56/57/57a/X12 plus the hourly 58, Sedgefield-Middlesbrough has the X12 every 30 and the 21a every hour, along Durham Road in Stockton you have those 2 plus Stagecoach's 58 every 12 minutes and the Stillington service every hour - presently with Leven Valley).

(08 Mar 2015, 8:07 pm)Kuyoyo wrote No, Go North East and United used to share what is now the X12/X2 (back when it was the X1) and also shared the X10. Then they split with United/Arriva retaining the X1 and GNE the X10.

There is next-to-no potential for competition on the Durham to Middlesbrough route as the bulk of the route has a large level of service already (Durham-Coxhoe is every 10 minutes with Arriva on 56/57/57a/X12 plus the hourly 58, Sedgefield-Middlesbrough has the X12 every 30 and the 21a every hour, along Durham Road in Stockton you have those 2 plus Stagecoach's 58 every 12 minutes and the Stillington service every hour - presently with Leven Valley).

It's the old Tyne Valley question though isn't it. You'd have thought there was next to no potential there, until GNE stuck their size 12s in with the X84/X85. Similarly, the risk of competition between Bishop and Darlington, caused Arriva to get their act together with the X1. 

I'd say the A177 corridor has the same potential. Arriva would sharp up their game at the slightest smell of competition. They know that there are capacity issues (emails from depot confirm that), but it's never not going to be a careful balance between supply and demand.

(08 Mar 2015, 9:03 am)RobinHood wrote I think that there are other services in the North East that GNE are better equipped to tackle before the X12 - Northumberland for example.

It would be a mighty vehicle investment required to compete on the X12 (estimate at least 6 vehicles to even match frequency), with no close operating depot to aid it. The X85 worked as it had a base at each end to help with issues during the early and critical part of its life.

Realistically, due to the geography and lack of connections south of Durham, I suspect there is very little weight in any business case. The X12 would probably bear the compeititon well, due to the high levels of local connections in Durham and Teesside that feed into it.

I agree that it needs to more work, but I suspect an entry onto the Durham to Middlesbrough coridoor would provoke an 'OK1' type reaction. Extra buses would be sourced im sure.

I was once told that Arriva are limited to changing the actual timetable once a year due to agreements with Durham University - who, to be fair, play a big hand in what happens on there these days. I'd be very surprised if a revised timetable doesn't happen to appear sometime over the summer, as has been the case over the past two years.

On the bigger picture however, since the days of EC operation on the old X1, there is more time to operate the service compared to back then, but its fairly obvious that the X12 is carrying significantly more passengers than it did back in say 2008. Its not surprising that timekeeping issues are arising again due to sheer passenger volume.

I think GNE would have more chance in Northumberland either operating out of Percy Main or opening an outstation somewhere in Blyth or Bedlington (probably Cambois) with Percy Main being a home depot. They could go for several Arriva routes:

- Competing service with the X21 and between Bedlington and Newcastle, the X22 to provide faster journey times and a more reliable service with better vehicles such as Mercs or if a success, B9s.

- Competing service with the X4 / X5 / X10 / X11 providing quicker times than the X5 and similar to X4/X10/X11, and creating new link to EC Hospital in East Crammy. Deleval wouldn't be served tough. Could use Mercs as a starting foundation.

- Could develop service 19 more and even provide links to South Tyneside and Wearside.

- Further development of service 309 including more services (evening frequency increased) and 310's taking a hit on additional peak time Cobalt services (X39, short 309).

- Could develop links across Ashington, Bedlington and Cramlington and also compete with the 43 / 45 services through Dudley, Seatonburn and Wideopen

(08 Mar 2015, 8:18 pm)aureolin wrote It's the old Tyne Valley question though isn't it. You'd have thought there was next to no potential there, until GNE stuck their size 12s in with the X84/X85. Similarly, the risk of competition between Bishop and Darlington, caused Arriva to get their act together with the X1. 

I'd say the A177 corridor has the same potential. Arriva would sharp up their game at the slightest smell of competition. They know that there are capacity issues (emails from depot confirm that), but it's never not going to be a careful balance between supply and demand.

And what has happened before when operators have tried pushing their way into well-developed corridors - Arriva's 153/154 attempt in Saltwell Park failed, as did Go North East's D4 in Durham.

No denying the X12 and 56/57/57a could do with better capacity but the issue is for them to get capacity improvements, someone else loses out (and for the X12, many millions will have to be spent and Stockton depot would have problems for months while it was being rebuilt) as Durham are presently destined to lose the majority of its Pulsars in the forthcoming months to replace Stockton's non-DDA Cadets.

(08 Mar 2015, 8:34 pm)Kuyoyo wrote And what has happened before when operators have tried pushing their way into well-developed corridors - Arriva's 153/154 attempt in Saltwell Park failed, as did Go North East's D4 in Durham.

No denying the X12 and 56/57/57a could do with better capacity but the issue is for them to get capacity improvements, someone else loses out (and for the X12, many millions will have to be spent and Stockton depot would have problems for months while it was being rebuilt) as Durham are presently destined to lose the majority of its Pulsars in the forthcoming months to replace Stockton's non-DDA Cadets.

I can't see Arriva willing to modify Stockton Depot in order to accommodate X12 deckers, mainly because prior to the recession the council compulsory purchased all of the land on Boathouse Lane for redevelopment excluding Arriva and Speedy Hire. This led to Arriva anticipating the depot would also be bought by the council and did make some plans if this happened, but due to the recession this never happened, but potentially it could still happen if the council wish to redevelop that area, but I would say that's unlikely in the short term.

(08 Mar 2015, 9:16 pm)John_R wrote I can't see Arriva willing to modify Stockton Depot in order to accommodate X12 deckers, mainly because prior to the recession the council compulsory purchased all of the land on Boathouse Lane for redevelopment excluding Arriva and Speedy Hire. This led to Arriva anticipating the depot would also be bought by the council and did make some plans if this happened, but due to the recession this never happened, but potentially it could still happen if the council wish to redevelop that area, but I would say that's unlikely in the short term.

I know it has all been compulsory bought bar the two units currently in use (us and Speedy Hire across the road) - however all of the roof was recently replaced, but at the same level so I'm not sure they won't be ready to spend if the need ever arose. Something certainly will need doing with the X12 though if the current growth continues!...

(08 Mar 2015, 8:20 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote I think GNE would have more chance in Northumberland either operating out of Percy Main or opening an outstation somewhere in Blyth or Bedlington (probably Cambois) with Percy Main being a home depot. They could go for several Arriva routes:

- Competing service with the X21 and between Bedlington and Newcastle, the X22 to provide faster journey times and a more reliable service with better vehicles such as Mercs or if a success, B9s.

- Competing service with the X4 / X5 / X10 / X11 providing quicker times than the X5 and similar to X4/X10/X11, and creating new link to EC Hospital in East Crammy. Deleval wouldn't be served tough. Could use Mercs as a starting foundation.

- Could develop service 19 more and even provide links to South Tyneside and Wearside.

- Further development of service 309 including more services (evening frequency increased) and 310's taking a hit on additional peak time Cobalt services (X39, short 309).

- Could develop links across Ashington, Bedlington and Cramlington and also compete with the 43 / 45 services through Dudley, Seatonburn and Wideopen

I'd suggest that if GNE built an outstation in Bedlington, it would be an ideal central location for what you suggested as it is:

• A main part of the current Arriva X21/22 routes, and the Red Lion bus stop is an ideal location for driver changeovers 
  
• A very short distance from Blyth and Cramlington, for the Blyth express services. 
  
• Later 19 journeys could operate out of here
  

These fields could be a good location?https://www.google.com/maps/@55.1254393,-1.605862,17.24z

(08 Mar 2015, 9:42 pm)tyresmoke wrote I know it has all been compulsory bought bar the two units currently in use (us and Speedy Hire across the road) - however all of the roof was recently replaced, but at the same level so I'm not sure they won't be ready to spend if the need ever arose. Something certainly will need doing with the X12 though if the current growth continues!...

I'd suggest it would make more sense to built a purpose designed facility, similar to what GNE have done with Riverside, rather than upgrade either depot. The distance between the two isn't too dissimilar from Winlaton and Sunderland Road either. If land around it has been compulsory purchased, then I can see the idea being a lot more lucrative to the powers that be.

(08 Mar 2015, 9:43 pm)mb134 wrote I'd suggest that if GNE built an outstation in Bedlington, it would be an ideal central location for what you suggested as it is:

• A main part of the current Arriva X21/22 routes, and the Red Lion bus stop is an ideal location for driver changeovers 
  
• A very short distance from Blyth and Cramlington, for the Blyth express services. 
  
• Later 19 journeys could operate out of here
  

These fields could be a good location?https://www.google.com/maps/@55.1254393,-1.605862,17.24z

Or, they could change the Cobalt Clipper rotas and position the drivers through like this with an office in Blyth:

- 309 from New York to Blyth. Walk to office.
- Pick up Express frim Blyth or drive pool van to Red Lion.
- Finish back at Blyth and take the 309 back to New York ready for a driver to take it back to Shields or Verne Road.
- They could even do the same for the Coaster by extending the Gateshead runs to Blyth with drivers starting at Percy Main or North Shields towards Blyth.

Following on from the X12/X2 discussion. I've been following a service that was late before 8am this morning, and it's now running up to 15 mins late now...

0845 from Durham was 10 late into Boro. 1005 from Boro was 11 late by the time it got back to Coxhoe. 1120 from Durham (X2) was 13 late into Chester. 1320 from Durham was then 15 late by the time it got to Coxhoe again. We'll see how it's doing in an hour or two....

1435 one from Middlesbrough (if that's the right one) is currently 12 minutes late.

(09 Mar 2015, 3:53 pm)Tom wrote 1435 one from Middlesbrough (if that's the right one) is currently 12 minutes late.

That's the one.

Now surely a timetable isn't sufficient, if a bus can remain constantly late, over an 8 hour period (and counting)...

(09 Mar 2015, 5:02 pm)aureolin wrote That's the one.

Now surely a timetable isn't sufficient, if a bus can remain constantly late, over an 8 hour period (and counting)...

...and this is of course with the layover at each end and the recovery time in the middle?

Think tyresmoke must just be a skilled driver compared to the rest if he thinks that there's no issues with regards to the timings!  

Is this it?

Bus X2 16:55 Newcastle Upon Tyne Eldon Square to Durham Bus Station + 8

(09 Mar 2015, 5:18 pm)Dan wrote ...and this is of course with the layover at each end and the recovery time in the middle?

Think tyresmoke must just be a skilled driver compared to the rest if there's no issues with regards to the timings!  

The 1555 from Durham was 12 late by the time it got to Middlesbrough bus station, and it left Durham on time.

The 0920 also ran 7 minutes late, and the 1305 from Middlesbrough was 9 late by the time it got to Coxhoe. I'd say about half the runs I looked at on live map today were running over 5 minutes late.

(09 Mar 2015, 5:24 pm)Tom wrote Is this it?

Bus X2 16:55 Newcastle Upon Tyne Eldon Square to Durham Bus Station + 8

That's the one. It's caught up a bit of time, but I reckon it'll be in excess of 10 again by the time it reaches Durham.

The 1726 X2 departure from Durham is also running 8 mins late.

The 1700 X12 departure from Durham is now running 10 mins late, with the 1715 running closely behind (on time).

The 1730 X12 departure from Durham is now running 7 mins late.

Glad its just me...

1700 X12 from Durham now 12 late in Stockton
1715 X12 from Durham reaching outskirts of Stockton on time
1730 X12 from Durham leaving Coxhoe 4 late
1715 X12 from Middlesbrough 3 late leaving Sedgefield
1730 X2 from Newcastle on time in Chester
1800 X2 from Newcastle on time in Gateshead

(09 Mar 2015, 6:05 pm)tyresmoke wrote 1700 X12 from Durham now 12 late in Stockton
1715 X12 from Durham reaching outskirts of Stockton on time
1730 X12 from Durham leaving Coxhoe 4 late
1715 X12 from Middlesbrough 3 late leaving Sedgefield
1730 X2 from Newcastle on time in Chester
1800 X2 from Newcastle on time in Gateshead

The 1800 X12 from Durham to Middlesbrough is now (finally!) on time. Only took a good 10 hours or so? Well that, and finally getting to the point in the timetable, where it gets an extended layover period.

Seems all of the Durham-Coxhoe services have issues:

Bus 56 17:50 Durham Bus Station to Bishop Auckland Bus Station + 11
Bus 56 17:30 Bishop Auckland Bus Station to Durham Bus Station + 5
Bus 57 17:40 Durham Bus Station to Kelloe Morley Crescent + 9
Bus 57 18:11 Kelloe Morley Crescent to Durham Bus Station + 5

(09 Mar 2015, 6:11 pm)aureolin wrote The 1800 X12 from Durham to Middlesbrough is now (finally!) on time. Only took a good 10 hours or so? Well that, and finally getting to the point in the timetable, where it gets an extended layover period.

I'd still suggest its an issue for Durham to look at rather than both depots having a problem - wonder if their allocation needs looking at too? Maybe when the Geminis come back they might be able to keep them on the road...

(09 Mar 2015, 6:18 pm)tyresmoke wrote I'd still suggest its an issue for Durham to look at rather than both depots having a problem - wonder if their allocation needs looking at too? Maybe when the Geminis come back they might be able to keep them on the road...

Aye... good luck with that one.

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I reckon it would probably make more sense for Jesmond to have the Durham boards. It'd give Arriva the flexibility of dropping a bus in, and pulling a late one out, should this happen at either end of the route. 

(09 Mar 2015, 6:22 pm)aureolin wrote Aye... good luck with that one.

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I reckon it would probably make more sense for Jesmond to have the Durham boards. It'd give Arriva the flexibility of dropping a bus in, and pulling a late one out, should this happen at either end of the route. 

Until you reach the evening when only Durham to Middlesbrough run and the timetable is set-up for Durham operation. Not to mention requiring two registrations on VOSA to cover the two op licenses...................

(09 Mar 2015, 6:26 pm)Kuyoyo wrote Until you reach the evening when only Durham to Middlesbrough run and the timetable is set-up for Durham operation. Not to mention requiring two registrations on VOSA to cover the two op licenses...................

But if someone was to complain to someone higher up than the powers that be at Arriva, they'd have to make changes anyway if reliability was as poor as reported by a customer due to the timetable being neither "realistic" nor "achievable".................