(20 Dec 2021, 12:41 am)Train8261 wrote What's the point in getting all these buses. How long have we had these coaches and no joke. How many days have all 6 been out

Secondly I've said it previously just withdraw the X9 as the X10 does the route on evening & Sundays and tbh most of this year has been the X10 doing both. This is what the 3rd time the X9 is being withdrawn

Versa on the X84/X85 seems a smart idea. Deckers are not needed for that route. But I'm guessing that goes the X Lines brand for Hexham. I don't even think its been a year since the E400MMC on the X84/5 were introduced

I think X84/85 need more higher spec brand new vehicles, like E200 MMC's. 
However X9/X10 for it to be reduced to hourly I think they will reached capacity.

(20 Dec 2021, 12:41 am)mb134 wrote Completely anecdotally but the Levantes don't seem much better from what I've seen. They'll also be knackered by this point with their previous career on Nat Ex work.

On MMCs being allocated, I think it's a good move. While 6377 would be a good option, ultimately it's the only 6 cylinder in the fleet and the other StreetDecks would die pretty quickly I'd imagine. I can't speak for GNEs MMCs, but I know ANEs handle express work superbly day in day out, and I've had similar good experiences with various Stagecoach examples on demanding routes.

Don't GNE's have a different gearbox to the ones Arriva use? Or am I just making that up

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:03 am)streetdeckfan wrote Don't GNE's have a different gearbox to the ones Arriva use? Or am I just making that up

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Possibly - I know ANEs have Voith boxes, think GNE might have ZF?

From travelling on both though, acceleration seems pretty similar and ultimately it's the same power unit so you'd hope they have similar gearing.

(20 Dec 2021, 1:01 am)Keeiajs wrote However X9/X10 for it to be reduced to hourly I think they will reached capacity.

That's my worry too, assuming they are actually basing the decision on passenger numbers and not just talking bull, then as others have rightly said the numbers it has been based on aren't really representative due to all the factors that were brought up.

Let's say passenger numbers pick up on the X10 in the new year, what are they going to do then? They won't have the vehicles to increase the frequency!

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:13 am)streetdeckfan wrote That's my worry too, assuming they are actually basing the decision on passenger numbers and not just talking bull, then as others have rightly said the numbers it has been based on aren't really representative due to all the factors that were brought up.

Let's say passenger numbers pick up on the X10 in the new year, what are they going to do then? They won't have the vehicles to increase the frequency!

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Just a thought - realistically services like the 309/310/311 could probably get away with a lower frequency. If the 311, for example, was completely withdrawn would this displace enough B9s to release 3/4 more MMCs to get the TTX PVR back up to what it is now?

(20 Dec 2021, 1:13 am)streetdeckfan wrote That's my worry too, assuming they are actually basing the decision on passenger numbers and not just talking bull, then as others have rightly said the numbers it has been based on aren't really representative due to all the factors that were brought up.

Let's say passenger numbers pick up on the X10 in the new year, what are they going to do then? They won't have the vehicles to increase the frequency!

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I think they will, I must sya it seems to have increased passenger numbers, and running it hourly is just going to cause utter chaos. 
Especially if social distancing comes back

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:18 am)mb134 wrote Just a thought - realistically services like the 309/310/311 could probably get away with a lower frequency. If the 311, for example, was completely withdrawn would this displace enough B9s to release 3/4 more MMCs to get the TTX PVR back up to what it is now?

So is the X9/X10 going to be like the old 42 or the 6/12/12A just gets what spare at that time.
This is just going to be a pain. to find replacements etc

(20 Dec 2021, 1:18 am)mb134 wrote Just a thought - realistically services like the 309/310/311 could probably get away with a lower frequency. If the 311, for example, was completely withdrawn would this displace enough B9s to release 3/4 more MMCs to get the TTX PVR back up to what it is now?

Someone finally said it

(20 Dec 2021, 1:01 am)Keeiajs wrote I think X84/85 need more higher spec brand new vehicles, like E200 MMC's. 
However X9/X10 for it to be reduced to hourly I think they will reached capacity.

Tbh if the X85 is withdrawn, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to somehow shoehorn the X84 into either interworking or merging with one or more of the Tynedale Links services using Solos/Versa/whatever as currently the journey is roughly 65 minutes which makes things awkward if it were to be standalone.

I wonder how much of an impact taking the X9/X10 out of Eldon Square had to passenger numbers. That could also be another reason for the move back to deckers.

I also can't help but think that the X9/X10 would have done better if it wasn't treated differently ticket wise. I can kind of understand charging extra to get to Middlesbrough, but not even being able to use it to Dalton Park without having to buy a special ticket is stupid

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:31 am)Jimmi wrote Tbh if the X85 is withdrawn, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to somehow shoehorn the X84 into either interworking or merging with one or more of the Tynedale Links services using Solos/Versa/whatever as currently the journey is roughly 65 minutes which makes things awkward if it were to be standalone.

If they were to order new buses, I would stick E200's on them, high spec. You would have the route extended to the Metro to add 20 mins, give 20 mins laypver at hexham and newcastle and sorted every 60 mins.

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:41 am)streetdeckfan wrote I wonder how much of an impact taking the X9/X10 out of Eldon Square had to passenger numbers. That could also be another reason for the move back to deckers.

I also can't help but think that the X9/X10 would have done better if it wasn't treated differently ticket wise. I can kind of understand charging extra to get to Middlesbrough, but not even being able to use it to Dalton Park without having to buy a special ticket is stupid

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I think Eldon Square had a massive effect, I think it has with the 56 aswell,

(20 Dec 2021, 1:43 am)Keeiajs wrote If they were to order new buses, I would stick E200's on them, high spec. You would have the route extended to the Metro to add 20 mins, give 20 mins laypver at hexham and newcastle and sorted every 60 mins.

---

I think Eldon Square had a massive effect, I think it has with the 56 aswell,

When did the 56 serve Eldon Square?

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:50 am)streetdeckfan wrote When did the 56 serve Eldon Square?

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It did used back in 2012, got upgraded to double deckers and the passenger numbers have dwindled since really, from Sunderland it used to be really busy, now your lucky in 6 people are waiting, went fron every 10 to every 15

(20 Dec 2021, 1:52 am)Keeiajs wrote It did used back in 2012, got upgraded to double deckers and the passenger numbers have dwindled since really, from Sunderland it used to be really busy, now your lucky in 6 people are waiting, went fron every 10 to every 15

It's always left from on-street stops - https://northeastbuses.co.uk/bygone/asse...ly2006.pdf

56 or the 187/8 never even served Eldon Square at all. 56/56A always went from Pilgrim Street / Market Street area of Newcastle whilst the 187/8 only ran to Gateshead.

Update on this
The X85 and X9 will be withdrawn, the X10/10E will become a PVR requirement of 4 which this will see the ‘Knackered’ Coaches withdrawn and replaced with the X-Lines Orange 400MMC. we should see a new X-Lines for the X84

Interesting move, if that is the case. Not only do Hexham lose their "major upgrade with £1million investment from Go North East", but arguably you're downgrading the X9/X10 in the process.

It's worth referring back to the press release back in February and reading the statements made at the time.

• "From today, Go North East has introduced luxury coaches on its premium X10 express route that runs between Middlesbrough and Newcastle via the A19, serving Stockton, Norton, Billingham, Peterlee, Dalton Park, Heworth and Gateshead."
  
• “These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19."
  
• and that "The route is cheaper and more luxurious than the train, with a return ticket costing just £8 between Middlesbrough and Newcastle, and unlimited travel available for £8.50 a day or £35 a week."
  

The quote from the company representative was that:
“We’re delighted to be upgrading our X10 service into our X-lines regional bus network with the introduction of these luxury coaches on our Middlesbrough to Newcastle express route.
“These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19.
“They will also play an important part in delivering congestion-busting low-carbon travel to help support the economic recovery of the region.”

There's a lot of emphasis there on luxury coaches and a first-class travel experience, even making the statement that it is more luxurious than the train. Are we now reverting back to a 'second-class' travel experience?

I think the upgrade of the X9/X10 to coaches was an excellent move and one likely to attract commuters away from the train. There's an automatic perception amongst the general public that coach travel is a step up from service bus travel, and in my opinion it needs something innovative like this to attract people away from the train.

What hasn't been on the operator's side is the pandemic, and perhaps if the route out of it panned out as expected in early 2021 we'd have seen a different response. Instead though, these have lasted a mere 10 months. We're not even on the road out of a pandemic yet, so not only is this barely even short-termism, it's almost a defeatist attitude that passenger numbers are never going to return. What happened to all the growth ambitions and targets (based on pre-pandemic numbers) being shouted about in the Bus Service Improvement Plan? That appears to have lasted all of five minutes.

There's also the question of reliability, and if the normal commuter loads had returned early 2021, they'd have been in the same reliability league as before the B9TLs were withdrawn. Pissed off commuters and hardly an advert for the service.

I've personally no issues with the Enviro 400MMCs, and whilst I think their introduction was a real boost for the X84/X85, they're a downgrade from the 'luxury coaches providing a first-class travel experience' on the X9/X10. A case of your words coming back to bite you?

Just shows what people think of buses in comparison to trains even known people defend them to death on here.

Both the routes between Hexham and Newcastle and Middlesbrough and Newcastle are absolutely rammed lately with people complaining they can't get on with some kid who fainted because of how bad it was last week.

Not surprised at Hexham there's way too many options with trains 3x an hour (best option), x84, x85 and 685 but dropping to a Versa is a serious downgrade. I wouldn't want to spend more than 20 minutes on them nevermind an hour. Horrid rattley things suited for city work.

(20 Dec 2021, 8:49 am)Adrian wrote Interesting move, if that is the case. Not only do Hexham lose their "major upgrade with £1million investment from Go North East", but arguably you're downgrading the X9/X10 in the process.

It's worth referring back to the press release back in February and reading the statements made at the time.

• "From today, Go North East has introduced luxury coaches on its premium X10 express route that runs between Middlesbrough and Newcastle via the A19, serving Stockton, Norton, Billingham, Peterlee, Dalton Park, Heworth and Gateshead."
  
• “These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19."
  
• and that "The route is cheaper and more luxurious than the train, with a return ticket costing just £8 between Middlesbrough and Newcastle, and unlimited travel available for £8.50 a day or £35 a week."
  

The quote from the company representative was that:
“We’re delighted to be upgrading our X10 service into our X-lines regional bus network with the introduction of these luxury coaches on our Middlesbrough to Newcastle express route.
“These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19.
“They will also play an important part in delivering congestion-busting low-carbon travel to help support the economic recovery of the region.”

There's a lot of emphasis there on luxury coaches and a first-class travel experience, even making the statement that it is more luxurious than the train. Are we now reverting back to a 'second-class' travel experience?

I think the upgrade of the X9/X10 to coaches was an excellent move and one likely to attract commuters away from the train. There's an automatic perception amongst the general public that coach travel is a step up from service bus travel, and in my opinion it needs something innovative like this to attract people away from the train.

What hasn't been on the operator's side is the pandemic, and perhaps if the route out of it panned out as expected in early 2021 we'd have seen a different response. Instead though, these have lasted a mere 10 months. We're not even on the road out of a pandemic yet, so not only is this barely even short-termism, it's almost a defeatist attitude that passenger numbers are never going to return. What happened to all the growth ambitions and targets (based on pre-pandemic numbers) being shouted about in the Bus Service Improvement Plan? That appears to have lasted all of five minutes.

There's also the question of reliability, and if the normal commuter loads had returned early 2021, they'd have been in the same reliability league as before the B9TLs were withdrawn. Pissed off commuters and hardly an advert for the service.

I've personally no issues with the Enviro 400MMCs, and whilst I think their introduction was a real boost for the X84/X85, they're a downgrade from the 'luxury coaches providing a first-class travel experience' on the X9/X10. A case of your words coming back to bite you?

You've done what I was going to do when I got a spare 10mins!

There's something not quite right about all of this based on the snippet of info from Dan and all of the information/blurb and marketing issued at the beginning of the year.

Reliability may be a factor, but it definitely smacks of short-termism and does nothing to entice those passengers (commuting or otherwise) out of their cars or off the train.
As someone whizzing (I use the term loosely) up and down the A19 several times a week, public transport would be an option - if there was something to connect to and got me to the end point quickly at either end (say Heworth or a point between there & Dalton Park and Middlesbrough). There isn't, so unless I have all the time in the world, I don't use it. 
Ditto the train at Durham, Newcastle, Heworth, Sunderland or Seaham.
I imagine most people are in a similar position, in that they too don't study/work/live in the town/city centres served by the X9/10 and that has to be a factor in this apparent drop in popularity. 

There's been times when I've seen cars waiting at Norton, dropping and collecting people for the X10. Maybe people have found an alternative to being inconvenienced? Maybe circumstances have forced their hand?

I mentioned external factors on passenger numbers the other day in the forum. There's bound to be some internal factors relating to this X9/10 white flag.

(20 Dec 2021, 8:49 am)Adrian wrote Interesting move, if that is the case. Not only do Hexham lose their "major upgrade with £1million investment from Go North East", but arguably you're downgrading the X9/X10 in the process.

It's worth referring back to the press release back in February and reading the statements made at the time.

• "From today, Go North East has introduced luxury coaches on its premium X10 express route that runs between Middlesbrough and Newcastle via the A19, serving Stockton, Norton, Billingham, Peterlee, Dalton Park, Heworth and Gateshead."
  
• “These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19."
  
• and that "The route is cheaper and more luxurious than the train, with a return ticket costing just £8 between Middlesbrough and Newcastle, and unlimited travel available for £8.50 a day or £35 a week."
  

The quote from the company representative was that:
“We’re delighted to be upgrading our X10 service into our X-lines regional bus network with the introduction of these luxury coaches on our Middlesbrough to Newcastle express route.
“These coaches provide extra comfort and a first-class travel experience, running fast and direct along the A19.
“They will also play an important part in delivering congestion-busting low-carbon travel to help support the economic recovery of the region.”

There's a lot of emphasis there on luxury coaches and a first-class travel experience, even making the statement that it is more luxurious than the train. Are we now reverting back to a 'second-class' travel experience?

I think the upgrade of the X9/X10 to coaches was an excellent move and one likely to attract commuters away from the train. There's an automatic perception amongst the general public that coach travel is a step up from service bus travel, and in my opinion it needs something innovative like this to attract people away from the train.

What hasn't been on the operator's side is the pandemic, and perhaps if the route out of it panned out as expected in early 2021 we'd have seen a different response. Instead though, these have lasted a mere 10 months. We're not even on the road out of a pandemic yet, so not only is this barely even short-termism, it's almost a defeatist attitude that passenger numbers are never going to return. What happened to all the growth ambitions and targets (based on pre-pandemic numbers) being shouted about in the Bus Service Improvement Plan? That appears to have lasted all of five minutes.

There's also the question of reliability, and if the normal commuter loads had returned early 2021, they'd have been in the same reliability league as before the B9TLs were withdrawn. Pissed off commuters and hardly an advert for the service.

I've personally no issues with the Enviro 400MMCs, and whilst I think their introduction was a real boost for the X84/X85, they're a downgrade from the 'luxury coaches providing a first-class travel experience' on the X9/X10. A case of your words coming back to bite you?

Agree entirely, the B11RT/Elite is a superb coach and it does seem those are particularly unsuited. Megabus run older B11R/Elites and they are still better than Levante, on distances that make the Oxford run and X9/10 seem like doddles. In Scotland they operate a more varied pattern and they do ok. The train service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough is abysmal, all year round, with capacity rarely matching numbers, the coach was the way to win business, bunging a bus on will have a negative effect, regardless of how high spec that bus is.

I get the feeling this is only just the start of the cost cutting going forwards.

(20 Dec 2021, 12:11 am)Keeiajs wrote Some Questions 
- What is happening with X84/5 (fleet allocation) ?
- What will the X9/10 get allocation wise?
- What will happen to the coaches
- Is GNE getting anything from other operators.

---

21 is another prime example ussed to be every 15 mins to Durham, now eveery 30 mins.

- Unsure about X84/X85 allocation.
- X9 & X10 will get 6352-55 and if total PVR remains at 7x. (minus the temp full day X10E revisions), 6338-40 will likely fill the rest.
- Coaches will no doubt be returned somewhere and or sold.
- I doubt it unless older deckers for Misc work etc.

21 was initially dropped before COVID due to X21 frequency increase.

---

(20 Dec 2021, 1:04 am)mb134 wrote Possibly - I know ANEs have Voith boxes, think GNE might have ZF?

From travelling on both though, acceleration seems pretty similar and ultimately it's the same power unit so you'd hope they have similar gearing.

ANE used to order ZF boxes for the Classic E400. However, ZF & Stop/Start (=BSOG requirement) was not available until 2019. Therefore 7541-52 were Voith boxes.

All of GNE/EY E400MMCs as well as Transdev's since 2019 have been ZF boxes.

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(20 Dec 2021, 1:28 am)Train8261 wrote Someone finally said it

The 311 will never be withdrawn with the 310 doing a loop around Hadrian Park instead. The 311 has it's purpose for the simple reason that the 309/310/311 can offer a higher combined frequency on a lower PVR than the 309/310 previously did alone. Not also taking into account the extra cost of running the 'oddball' 57 that no one wanted to use as it didn't serve Haymarket.

I hate to agree but I think there will be more cuts before further expansion and development.

I wonder what will happen to the Northern Coaching coaches, will there be sold as I cannot think of any immediate long term regular use for them (or at least them all)? Maybe they could go to the training school replacing the Scania buses currently used?

Back to the coach v bus argument on the X10 there are pluses and minuses for each but surely there's nothing saying the interior of a bus can be as 'luxury' as that of a coach? Also, wheelchair loading onto a coach is very time consuming (ive done the training) so therefore a bus has this advantage as well. Overall its a downgrade especially when you think of the fanfare when the coaches were launched however in these strange times we should acknowledge that GNE are giving the service a chance (even if its not very attractive or likely to attract car users) rather than just throw the towel in altogether.

With there only being 4, are they keeping the X10 for the foreseeable future, as I think most buses will fill to capacity, and if social distancing returns (which Bojo is considering) it will just be a utter disaster. 

But what will be the spare's? Also get that back into Eldon Square. Are they planning a order for some Scania E400 MMC, or Six Cylinder Streetdecks.

X84 seems to be the only one reducing the frequency to every 60 mins (shame) it does deserve brand new buses like....

(20 Dec 2021, 8:00 am)Rapidsnap wrote 56 or the 187/8 never even served Eldon Square at all. 56/56A always went from Pilgrim Street / Market Street area of Newcastle whilst the 187/8 only ran to Gateshead.

Oh sorry, I can remember a 56 dropping me off at Eldon Square. 

Personally I believe it would help in passenger numbers, or atleast a less frequent express service as the 56 goes through every little turn.Something to compete with the X24.

(20 Dec 2021, 10:02 am)morritt89 wrote Back to the coach v bus argument on the X10 there are pluses and minuses for each but surely there's nothing saying the interior of a bus can be as 'luxury' as that of a coach? Also, wheelchair loading onto a coach is very time consuming (ive done the training) so therefore a bus has this advantage as well. Overall its a downgrade especially when you think of the fanfare when the coaches were launched however in these strange times we should acknowledge that GNE are giving the service a chance (even if its not very attractive or likely to attract car users) rather than just throw the towel in altogether.

Perception is everything here, and there's an automatic perception amongst the general public that coach travel is a step up from service bus travel. This is really important when you're competing with the train, which is also seen as a step up from bus travel. 

Whilst I think it'll be hard to change those perceptions, for reasons I've mentioned in the past e.g. Xlines spec vs the standard 'no-frills' spec that customers will encounter more, I agree that there's nothing to say that an interior of a bus can't be as 'luxury' as a coach, but these E400MMCs aren't going to do that. I actually think that Transdev come closer to achieving this on some of their services, e.g. the City Zap between York and Leeds or the Witchway into Manchester, and the seats and layout are key to this.

(20 Dec 2021, 11:32 am)Adrian wrote Perception is everything here, and there's an automatic perception amongst the general public that coach travel is a step up from service bus travel. This is really important when you're competing with the train, which is also seen as a step up from bus travel. 

Whilst I think it'll be hard to change those perceptions, for reasons I've mentioned in the past e.g. Xlines spec vs the standard 'no-frills' spec that customers will encounter more, I agree that there's nothing to say that an interior of a bus can't be as 'luxury' as a coach, but these E400MMCs aren't going to do that. I actually think that Transdev come closer to achieving this on some of their services, e.g. the City Zap between York and Leeds or the Witchway into Manchester, and the seats and layout are key to this.

In all fairness the X9/X10 were always busy when it reached eldon square. I think pulling it out of Eldon Square did absolutely no favours, I mean the X10 from Dalton Park is Quicker/same than the train and much cheaper to Newcastle, aswell as from Peterlee or Hordon Station. 
And I think it is around the same for Middesbrough and Stockton

(20 Dec 2021, 11:06 am)Keeiajs wrote With there only being 4, are they keeping the X10 for the foreseeable future, as I think most buses will fill to capacity, and if social distancing returns (which Bojo is considering) it will just be a utter disaster. 

But what will be the spare's? Also get that back into Eldon Square. Are they planning a order for some Scania E400 MMC, or Six Cylinder Streetdecks.

X84 seems to be the only one reducing the frequency to every 60 mins (shame) it does deserve brand new buses like....

X84 could end up with 6304 - 6307

(20 Dec 2021, 11:54 am)ian foster wrote X84 could end up with 6304 - 6307

Well they would only need 2, so 6332-3, whcih have been freed up since X47 was removed from X-lines Brand.

I was hoping they could increase the Angel services to Durham to every 20 mins, with 1 terminating at Durham.

---

(20 Dec 2021, 9:17 am)Andreos1 wrote You've done what I was going to do when I got a spare 10mins!

There's something not quite right about all of this based on the snippet of info from Dan and all of the information/blurb and marketing issued at the beginning of the year.

Reliability may be a factor, but it definitely smacks of short-termism and does nothing to entice those passengers (commuting or otherwise) out of their cars or off the train.
As someone whizzing (I use the term loosely) up and down the A19 several times a week, public transport would be an option - if there was something to connect to and got me to the end point quickly at either end (say Heworth or a point between there and Dalton Park and Middlesbrough). There isn't, so unless I have all the time in the world, I don't use it. 
Ditto the train at Durham, Newcastle, Heworth, Sunderland or Seaham.
I imagine most people are in a similar position, in that they too don't study/work/live in the town/city centres served by the X9/10 and that has to be a factor in this apparent drop in popularity. 

There's been times when I've seen cars waiting at Norton, dropping and collecting people for the X10. Maybe people have found an alternative to being inconvenienced? Maybe circumstances have forced their hand?

I mentioned external factors on passenger numbers the other day in the forum. There's bound to be some internal factors relating to this X9/10 white flag.

When you say external factors, or due to circumstances it might be the thing that the last X10 is at 20:22, which for a lot of people is too early in Newcastle especially if they work at say eldon Square, for example the last X1 to Dalton park is 17:50, and Tbh I think that is a bit early especially with all this Christmas shopping, there should be on at 19:00 and 20:00, and the X10 the last one should be 22:00 imo.

(20 Dec 2021, 11:37 am)Keeiajs wrote In all fairness the X9/X10 were always busy when it reached eldon square. I think pulling it out of Eldon Square did absolutely no favours, I mean the X10 from Dalton Park is Quicker/same than the train and much cheaper to Newcastle, aswell as from Peterlee or Hordon Station. 
And I think it is around the same for Middesbrough and Stockton

Train: 1 hour 20 mins
Bus: 1 hour 45 mins

There's quite a big difference between Middlesbrough and Newcastle and a train will very likely take 1 hour 20 mins, a bus on the otherhand is linked to other traffic so could take much much longer and on such a long route it's not rare.

Neither have connections either. There's nothing at all in Middlesbrough and there's very little North of Newcastle either. Durham / Sunderland passengers won't be travelling via the X10 and would use the X12 or train instead. Passengers in Peterlee are more likely to have Arriva day tickets aswell since they offer more services and could use the X22 especially if they live on the route, the time it takes to change will knock off the 20 minutes in time difference.

I don't care what anyone says on here the worst train (excluding buses on rails) is better than the best conventional bus. There's more space, there's toilets, there's tables, the ride is better generally, they rarely break down, there's rarely traffic issues.

I'd take a Class 156 or Class 158 anyday over any Alexander Dennis or Wright bus with as many fancy mod cons they can attempt to squeeze on even if it cost 40% more and most of the GP will agree. As soon as the Newcastle to Middlesbrough eventually go every 30 minutes, then it's incomparable.

It's not a co-incidence the two routes competing against trains are struggling.

(20 Dec 2021, 12:12 pm)Storx wrote Train: 1 hour 20 mins
Bus: 1 hour 45 mins

There's quite a big difference between Middlesbrough and Newcastle and a train will very likely take 1 hour 20 mins, a bus on the otherhand is linked to other traffic so could take much much longer and on such a long route it's not rare.

Neither have connections either. There's nothing at all in Middlesbrough and there's very little North of Newcastle either. Durham / Sunderland passengers won't be travelling via the X10 and would use the X12 or train instead. Passengers in Peterlee are more likely to have Arriva day tickets aswell since they offer more services and could use the X22 especially if they live on the route, the time it takes to change will knock off the 20 minutes in time difference.

I don't care what anyone says on here the worst train (excluding buses on rails) is better than the best conventional bus. There's more space, there's toilets, there's tables, the ride is better generally, they rarely break down, there's rarely traffic issues.

I'd take a Class 156 or Class 158 anyday over any Alexander Dennis or Wright bus with as many fancy mod cons they can attempt to squeeze on even if it cost 40% more and most of the GP will agree. As soon as the Newcastle to Middlesbrough eventually go every 30 minutes, then it's incomparable.

It's not a co-incidence the two routes competing against trains are struggling.

Maybe the X9 can return, to take it Via Durham.   However Newcastle to Middlesbrough every 30 mins I doubt it will happen atleast for the next 2 years. 
I think Eldon Square the final blow tbh.