(09 Nov 2022, 3:37 pm)Chris 1 wrote I'm sure First in Glasgow done something similar, targeting people with other commitments.

Might be union objections though?

Independents with scholar contracts often advertise for those sorts of roles.

Ditto, coach operators who have weekend work.

It would be interesting to see how they've been affected by the driver shortage. If at all.

(09 Nov 2022, 3:04 pm)Rob44 wrote wHY CANT THEY ADVERTISE FOR DRIVERS FOR EXAMPLE " ONLY WEEKEND WORK" OR ONLY " TWIGHLIGHT SHIFTS STARTING AFTER 5PM"?

Another reason why this may not happen is because some in upper managerial positions see bus driving as some sort of vocational role, a role that you'll want to do full-time, probably for the rest of your life, which, in the past, might have been true. However, nowadays, unless you're a bus enthusiast, driving a bus is, for most, a means to an end until something better comes along. Not unlike shop-work or other jobs that some people dismiss as being 'menial'.

(08 Nov 2022, 7:56 pm)Unber43 wrote There are some drivers which seem to be on the exact same shifts every day I've noticed. I wonder how they get to pick that they get the same shift every day, monday to friday. Whereas most don't.

Stagecoach also allocate holiday blocks. Think it's 2 weeks in spring, 2 in Summer and 1 in winter. Though this will depend on the depot. At Hartlepool I'm one of many that's opted to take 5 seperate weeks. They're still allocated (except for a week in May that I always insist on) but from what I gather most depots couldn't be arsed to do it.

Our one and only school run has the same driver for legal reasons. There's a few that do the same shift for medical or familiy reasons. And because very few people are willing to do the late shifts, two of the three drivers on 6s and 7s on Monday to Friday nights do them permanently and once we're fully organised, the new evening route 1 will have the same driver 4 nights a week.

(09 Nov 2022, 5:59 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Another reason why this may not happen is because some in upper managerial positions see bus driving as some sort of vocational role, a role that you'll want to do full-time, probably for the rest of your life, which, in the past, might have been true. However, nowadays, unless you're a bus enthusiast, driving a bus is, for most, a means to an end until something better comes along. Not unlike shop-work or other jobs that some people dismiss as being 'menial'.

I dont think that is true. Why would a company pay somebody a full time wage if they are only needed to cover 2 hours in the morning  and 2 hours in the afternoon, both for schools? If they can pay somebody 25 hours a week instead of 39. I know which one they'll choose.

Also, if a number of late turns are set aside in a dedicated rota, that's fewer for the daytime drivers, that like to complain about lates. So an operator should be doing that.

(11 Nov 2022, 2:31 pm)DeltaMan wrote I dont think that is true. Why would a company pay somebody a full time wage if they are only needed to cover 2 hours in the morning  and 2 hours in the afternoon, both for schools? If they can pay somebody 25 hours a week instead of 39. I know which one they'll choose.

Also, if a number of late turns are set aside in a dedicated rota, that's fewer for the daytime drivers, that like to complain about lates. So an operator should be doing that.

Split shift drivers work fixed shifts of 7 hours and 48 minutes which meets the 39 hour guarantee exactly. If a driver is full-time, their rota must allocate them at least 39 hours of work to meet their terms and conditions. The 39 hour guarantee applies to all full-time drivers regardless of their rota. 

For some splits, which do not have enough runs to cover the full 7 hours and 48 minutes, the scheduler will include a period on standby in either half to make up the shortfall before they are released from either split. Not all splits are created equally - one might involve a couple of hours or so in the morning, but then be nigh on five hours in the afternoon, often well into the evening.

(11 Nov 2022, 9:02 pm)R852 PRG wrote Split shift drivers work fixed shifts of 7 hours and 48 minutes which meets the 39 hour guarantee exactly. If a driver is full-time, their rota must allocate them at least 39 hours of work to meet their terms and conditions. The 39 hour guarantee applies to all full-time drivers regardless of their rota. 

For some splits, which do not have enough runs to cover the full 7 hours and 48 minutes, the scheduler will include a period on standby in either half to make up the shortfall before they are released from either split. Not all splits are created equally - one might involve a couple of hours or so in the morning, but then be nigh on five hours in the afternoon, often well into the evening.

As a rule.of thumb, it should be drivers taking the last buses out and the first buses back within whatever the confines of the max spread times are. 

If Split drivers aren't taking buses out and back then they are effectively pointless as you don't save any standard duties.

(11 Nov 2022, 10:00 pm)DeltaMan wrote As a rule.of thumb, it should be drivers taking the last buses out and the first buses back within whatever the confines of the max spread times are. 

If Split drivers aren't taking buses out and back then they are effectively pointless as you don't save any standard duties.

The spread time is sixteen hours. Not many splits maximise the spread time, and most seem to fall at around just over twelve hours in total. The overwhelming majority of split duties will involve taking a bus from the depot in the morning and returning it after its miscellaneous runs, and then doing the same again in the afternoon; some morning splits will be relieved at an interchange, and the driver might then have a period on standby before being free to make their way back to the depot. 

At Riverside and Washington, for example, some split duties will finish their morning segment at Gateshead Metro or the Galleries as some miscellaneous boards run onto regular services, although this applies more-so to Riverside.

Some splits will start earlier then the other splits but also conclude earlier; I remember at Chester, there was a split shift that was one of the first buses out of the depot (the staff bus), and then didn't conclude until nearly 0930, before doing a single scholars run in the afternoon and wrapping up just after 1700. From my observations of how the splits drivers worked at Chester, most of whom had worked there for a considerable time, each line on the splits rota would entail the same shift Monday through Friday so that a driver would have the same shift all week, then might not do that shift for another four weeks.

I'm on a split at Deptford. I do the same shift everyday Monday - Friday.

I do my school run in the morning (just over 2 hours including check times) and the same on an afternoon (again just over 2 hours).

3 days per week I'm spare and cover either late breaks, Service work which would otherwise go uncovered or cover mileage for breakdowns (or any combination of the above). My shift length (clock on to clock off is 9 hours 10 minutes).

Some drivers don't like splits because there is no variety and also whilst you do get every weekend off, you don't get long weekends.

(12 Nov 2022, 1:59 pm)morritt89 wrote I'm on a split at Deptford. I do the same shift everyday Monday - Friday.

I do my school run in the morning (just over 2 hours including check times) and the same on an afternoon (again just over 2 hours).

3 days per week I'm spare and cover either late breaks, Service work which would otherwise go uncovered or cover mileage for breakdowns (or any combination of the above). My shift length (clock on to clock off is 9 hours 10 minutes).

Some drivers don't like splits because there is no variety and also whilst you do get every weekend off, you don't get long weekends.

Plus your daily travelling to and from work is doubled.  No problem if you live close to the depot, maybe more so if you live some distance away

(13 Nov 2022, 1:41 am)Bazza wrote Plus your daily travelling to and from work is doubled.  No problem if you live close to the depot, maybe more so if you live some distance away

No it isn't, because you can just stay at the depot or go into town for a bit.

(13 Nov 2022, 11:22 am)F114TML wrote No it isn't, because you can just stay at the depot or go into town for a bit.

If you’re just going to stay at the depot why not work and get paid for it? Surely one of the advantages of a split shift is spending  more time at home?

After nearly a year away now, I still see experienced drivers leaving, or on the sick because they've just had enough - the same reasons I left.  I reckon a half to 2/3rds of the experienced drivers I used to work with left around the time I did (either before or in the last year), and there are still a few hanging on hoping to ride it out or are close to retirement.

For me in a post COVID world passengers became on the whole one of two types of people -  a bit more thoughtful, or foot to the floor I'm gonna be an complete asshat.  For me there were just too many asshats and the constant abuse day in day out just became too much.  When raised with management the sympathised but their line was 'there's nothing we can do'.  There was also the blatants lies of 'of course we're investing in your depot - we're not going to close it' - when they absolutely knew they were - similarly office based managers who have no clue on the day to day running of routes overruling their own driving school staff and H&S assessments saying it's safe to stop in road junctions on a dual carriageway for example when it clearly is not.

In terms of fitting rotas to better suit peoples personal circumstances there are more opportunities at larger depots but I was simply told, even though there was only one other person at my depot on a fixed rota - they won't do that - it'd upset too many people and everyone would want to do it - is it so hard to try and accomodate the majority of your staff - no it's easier just to piss them all off.

Current poor retention rates are due to the same old tired and ineffective management style who look after themselves and surround themselves with similar personalities.  Concentrating on lambasting drivers for having a hint of a hi-viz on show when running 40 mins late - losing most of your break except bare minimum and then being told to run 20 mins late in service with the next service 10 mins behind.  If you stand there with the whip all the time, people are going to very quickly learn that they need to do just enough to avoid being whipped.

But hey - look at the pay rate we've beaten them up to now - 'go-ahead' - be a bus driver, be abused, be run ragged trying to keep a service on time, be physically and mentally exhausted most days, drive a bus you know is almost certainly going to break down with the same fault you reported yesterday, and the day before.  Endure complaints about no saloon heating for your passengers for days or weeks because it's not classed as essential and they will only take the bus off the road for driver heating faults probably until it's due annual PSV - even then it still probably won't get fixed as long as the fan is running.

Enjoy the charvas who get away with everything because the company has no balls to do anything about it.  Endure the rota mistakes that aren't rectified for months that mean if you did your first use check and were to complete your 5.5hr run you'd be running illegally - that is without running late.  Enjoy the ability to have feedback regarding service improvements and rota amendments routinely ignored.

...... or just do something else, don't have the stress, anxiety, depression, and the effect it has on your own family at home.  Do you think this will attract more drivers?

(17 Nov 2022, 5:27 pm)xpm wrote After nearly a year away now, I still see experienced drivers leaving, or on the sick because they've just had enough - the same reasons I left.  I reckon a half to 2/3rds of the experienced drivers I used to work with left around the time I did (either before or in the last year), and there are still a few hanging on hoping to ride it out or are close to retirement.

For me in a post COVID world passengers became on the whole one of two types of people -  a bit more thoughtful, or foot to the floor I'm gonna be an complete asshat.  For me there were just too many asshats and the constant abuse day in day out just became too much.  When raised with management the sympathised but their line was 'there's nothing we can do'.  There was also the blatants lies of 'of course we're investing in your depot - we're not going to close it' - when they absolutely knew they were - similarly office based managers who have no clue on the day to day running of routes overruling their own driving school staff and H&S assessments saying it's safe to stop in road junctions on a dual carriageway for example when it clearly is not.

In terms of fitting rotas to better suit peoples personal circumstances there are more opportunities at larger depots but I was simply told, even though there was only one other person at my depot on a fixed rota - they won't do that - it'd upset too many people and everyone would want to do it - is it so hard to try and accomodate the majority of your staff - no it's easier just to piss them all off.

Current poor retention rates are due to the same old tired and ineffective management style who look after themselves and surround themselves with similar personalities.  Concentrating on lambasting drivers for having a hint of a hi-viz on show when running 40 mins late - losing most of your break except bare minimum and then being told to run 20 mins late in service with the next service 10 mins behind.  If you stand there with the whip all the time, people are going to very quickly learn that they need to do just enough to avoid being whipped.

But hey - look at the pay rate we've beaten them up to now - 'go-ahead' - be a bus driver, be abused, be run ragged trying to keep a service on time, be physically and mentally exhausted most days, drive a bus you know is almost certainly going to break down with the same fault you reported yesterday, and the day before.  Endure complaints about no saloon heating for your passengers for days or weeks because it's not classed as essential and they will only take the bus off the road for driver heating faults probably until it's due annual PSV - even then it still probably won't get fixed as long as the fan is running.

Enjoy the charvas who get away with everything because the company has no balls to do anything about it.  Endure the rota mistakes that aren't rectified for months that mean if you did your first use check and were to complete your 5.5hr run you'd be running illegally - that is without running late.  Enjoy the ability to have feedback regarding service improvements and rota amendments routinely ignored.

...... or just do something else, don't have the stress, anxiety, depression, and the effect it has on your own family at home.  Do you think this will attract more drivers?

You’re bang on here and I left fairly recently for the exact same reasons. I just couldn’t face going to work anymore for the abuse off the passengers, the lack of interest from management, the knackered buses that never got fixed, the complete and utter lack of flexibility. Couldn’t even get a lieu day when you wanted it never mind a weeks holiday. I wouldn’t go back in a million years.

(17 Nov 2022, 5:27 pm)xpm wrote After nearly a year away now, I still see experienced drivers leaving, or on the sick because they've just had enough - the same reasons I left.  I reckon a half to 2/3rds of the experienced drivers I used to work with left around the time I did (either before or in the last year), and there are still a few hanging on hoping to ride it out or are close to retirement.

For me in a post COVID world passengers became on the whole one of two types of people -  a bit more thoughtful, or foot to the floor I'm gonna be an complete asshat.  For me there were just too many asshats and the constant abuse day in day out just became too much.  When raised with management the sympathised but their line was 'there's nothing we can do'.  There was also the blatants lies of 'of course we're investing in your depot - we're not going to close it' - when they absolutely knew they were - similarly office based managers who have no clue on the day to day running of routes overruling their own driving school staff and H&S assessments saying it's safe to stop in road junctions on a dual carriageway for example when it clearly is not.

In terms of fitting rotas to better suit peoples personal circumstances there are more opportunities at larger depots but I was simply told, even though there was only one other person at my depot on a fixed rota - they won't do that - it'd upset too many people and everyone would want to do it - is it so hard to try and accomodate the majority of your staff - no it's easier just to piss them all off.

Current poor retention rates are due to the same old tired and ineffective management style who look after themselves and surround themselves with similar personalities.  Concentrating on lambasting drivers for having a hint of a hi-viz on show when running 40 mins late - losing most of your break except bare minimum and then being told to run 20 mins late in service with the next service 10 mins behind.  If you stand there with the whip all the time, people are going to very quickly learn that they need to do just enough to avoid being whipped.

But hey - look at the pay rate we've beaten them up to now - 'go-ahead' - be a bus driver, be abused, be run ragged trying to keep a service on time, be physically and mentally exhausted most days, drive a bus you know is almost certainly going to break down with the same fault you reported yesterday, and the day before.  Endure complaints about no saloon heating for your passengers for days or weeks because it's not classed as essential and they will only take the bus off the road for driver heating faults probably until it's due annual PSV - even then it still probably won't get fixed as long as the fan is running.

Enjoy the charvas who get away with everything because the company has no balls to do anything about it.  Endure the rota mistakes that aren't rectified for months that mean if you did your first use check and were to complete your 5.5hr run you'd be running illegally - that is without running late.  Enjoy the ability to have feedback regarding service improvements and rota amendments routinely ignored.

...... or just do something else, don't have the stress, anxiety, depression, and the effect it has on your own family at home.  Do you think this will attract more drivers?

Are you me? I left Arriva a few months ago after 22 years of service. I'd just had enough. Being lied to and abused by punters and other road users always came with the territory but it had gotten completely out of hand over the last few years. I now work in a factory. Yes, it's monotonous work, but on the other hand, no abuse, no complaints, I get to start and finish at the same time everyday and it's far less stressful. All for only 40p an hour less than I was getting on the top rate at Arriva.

(17 Nov 2022, 10:13 pm)Kramer1 wrote You’re bang on here and I left fairly recently for the exact same reasons. I just couldn’t face going to work anymore for the abuse off the passengers, the lack of interest from management, the knackered buses that never got fixed, the complete and utter lack of flexibility. Couldn’t even get a lieu day when you wanted it never mind a weeks holiday. I wouldn’t go back in a million years.

I've heard drivers complain about the same vehicle for weeks, about the same issue, whether that be heating or the bus not being able to pass 35 miles an hour not being fixed for ages if ever. USB's not working (which have been complained about). 

As for abuse of passengers, what type of abuse is it just the behaviour of passengers when they're on the bus, or smoking weed or anything on the bus and stinking it out, or drug passengers who are just awful?

(17 Nov 2022, 10:41 pm)Unber43 wrote As for abuse of passengers, what type of abuse is it just the behaviour of passengers when they're on the bus, or smoking weed or anything on the bus and stinking it out, or drug passengers who are just awful?

I was on an X22 earlier in the year where a passenger was shouting at the driver from their seat for about 10-15 minutes of the journey about how they were late (having muttered "finally" when the driver rocked up at Ashington Bus Station to get on the bus) and "driving slowly".


The bus was bang on time throughout, the driver had showed up 5 minutes before they were due away, and the passenger refused to believe the driver when they showed them the running board that had all the times printed on it in black and white. The bus in front also ran, on time, so it wasn't even as if one was missing. Attitudes like that are becoming more and more common, and it can't be helping.

(17 Nov 2022, 10:41 pm)Unber43 wrote I've heard drivers complain about the same vehicle for weeks, about the same issue, whether that be heating or the bus not being able to pass 35 miles an hour not being fixed for ages if ever. USB's not working (which have been complained about). 

As for abuse of passengers, what type of abuse is it just the behaviour of passengers when they're on the bus, or smoking weed or anything on the bus and stinking it out, or drug passengers who are just awful?

Just the general attitude of society really, pandemic seems to have made it worse. Teens/young adults are generally the worst. Don’t get me wrong, I know there’s plenty of misery guts drivers out there!

Honestly I think a lot hast to do with the cancellations/delayed operations aswell with passenger frustrations while I would never take it out for a driver, I have seen people who have complained as the bus before went NIS due it being 18 mins late (every 15 mins service), and people complaining that they've been waiting 30 mins for a bus which is true (then you've got some whcih say they've been waiting nearly an hour) and that has a lot to do with the scheduling, if you look at GNE Twitter Page its all just "Sorry Due to Delayed Operation" X won't run and sorry just isn't enough, while cancellations were really tough especially Washington & Consett, which both were ridiculous at one point im pretty sure at one point there was more X45/X46's parked up than actually were on the route (when they were every 20 mins).

Honestly I think more of a streamlined approach when it comes to buses running late for example

X21 say it was 30 mins late arriving into West Auckland, it would continue as normal to Durham or Bishop Aukland then go NIS to Newcastle dropping off only(or untill it becomes on time), and X21 to West Auckland (being 30 mins late) would run to Gateshead then go NIS till it gets on time.

There's only one time I've ever been rude to a driver, and that's only because he called me either a fat f**k or a fat c**t under his breath (I can't remember) for asking him to actually do his job and drive to the last stop on the route. I mean, he wasn't exactly Twiggy himself!

Had he been nice and said he needed to get back to the depot I would have got off the bus and went on my merry way, but he lied and said that the bus was supposed to terminate there. After disputing the fact, he showed me either his running board or the timetable, which clearly showed that it was supposed to go an extra stop.

Obviously I reported him to GNE, and got the usual "we'll pass it onto the depot". Not sure if they ever did anything, but even a few years later he still looks away when I board his bus, which I find rather amusing!

(05 Nov 2022, 12:14 am)Chris 1 wrote I’ve not heard either advert, but I do think GNE have certainly tried to make their offering more attractive recently. Both in terms of rates and how they’re presenting them.

On the website, I note Stagecoach upping their top rate to £13, but what’s this “Typical Annualised Earnings” all about? They quote 37 hrs on the website but then £28k underneath, which even at 40 hrs doesn’t reconcile to £13 an hour.

£28k would be 45hrs per week at £13.08 (so the 90 hour limit per fortnight on drivers hours) for 11 months.

With overtime/bank holiday/special events rates being higher, then the hours needing to be worked may be less than my calculation, there's also the option to work holidays too I believe, which would boost pay by £2k on a 45 hour week.

(17 Nov 2022, 10:33 pm)Driver9*** wrote Are you me? I left Arriva a few months ago after 22 years of service. I'd just had enough. Being lied to and abused by punters and other road users always came with the territory but it had gotten completely out of hand over the last few years. I now work in a factory. Yes, it's monotonous work, but on the other hand, no abuse, no complaints, I get to start and finish at the same time everyday and it's far less stressful. All for only 40p an hour less than I was getting on the top rate at Arriva.

Haha no - but the similarities continue!  I also work in a factory, but in a year I've had three pay rises and earn far more now then I could ever imagine at GNE, and without killing myself to do it!

The driving was never an issue for me, even with the stress of traffic and other road users, it was just everything else   I work 12 hr shifts out of choice (and cos it pays a better hourly rate),  alternating patterns of day and night, but only work 14 days a month in total, my shifts are on a 4 week fixed pattern, and that works for me just fine.

Glad you've made the switch and have found a better way, that can't have been an easy decision having been there for that length of time.  Well done you.

20 years in the industry here, and I'm currently looking elsewhere. Any jobs going? ?

(22 Nov 2022, 4:17 pm)P814VTY wrote 20 years in the industry here, and I'm currently looking elsewhere. Any jobs going? ?

Yes.... go on website

(22 Nov 2022, 9:44 am)xpm wrote Haha no - but the similarities continue!  I also work in a factory, but in a year I've had three pay rises and earn far more now then I could ever imagine at GNE, and without killing myself to do it!

The driving was never an issue for me, even with the stress of traffic and other road users, it was just everything else   I work 12 hr shifts out of choice (and cos it pays a better hourly rate),  alternating patterns of day and night, but only work 14 days a month in total, my shifts are on a 4 week fixed pattern, and that works for me just fine.

Glad you've made the switch and have found a better way, that can't have been an easy decision having been there for that length of time.  Well done you.

Cheers.

---

(22 Nov 2022, 4:17 pm)P814VTY wrote 20 years in the industry here, and I'm currently looking elsewhere. Any jobs going? ?

Plenty. Whereabouts in the NE do you live?

Oh and P814VTY, Arriva fleet number 280 Scania Saloon, a flying machine. I remember when the speed limiter was not working for a few months and I got her up to an indicated 75mph, some drivers claimed 80+ but they were probably talking bollocks lol.

North Shields