If any further proof is needed that Hartlepool needs investment then it’s now as they currently have 3 buses on loan 22412 24122 currently doing the 6/7 routes and then 39726 is also on loan doing the 3/3A something needs to be done soon and I don’t mean putting all the scrap from Newcastle into service here either like 39726 is.

(21 Apr 2023, 3:52 pm)col87 wrote If any further proof is needed that Hartlepool needs investment then it’s now as they currently have 3 buses on loan  22412 24122 currently doing the 6/7 routes and then 39726 is also on loan doing the 3/3A something needs to be done soon and I don’t mean putting all the scrap from Newcastle into service here either like 39726 is.

ive heard that some 2014/2015 E200s are likely to become available this year, i cant remember where from, i wonder if we will see any of these. i know the tyneside E200s are getting on abit now so i imagine these will be looked at for replacement aswell.

failing that could Stockton and hartlepool not grab some of the 2003/2004 ALX400s that are becoming available this year, there's loads of vehicles and plenty of spares to keep them going. source of spares for the ALX300s aswell

(21 Apr 2023, 5:26 pm)toward6931 wrote ive heard that some 2014/2015 E200s are likely to become available this year, i cant remember where from, i wonder if we will see any of these. i know the tyneside E200s are getting on abit now so i imagine these will be looked at for replacement aswell.

failing that could Stockton and hartlepool not grab some of the 2003/2004 ALX400s that are becoming available this year, there's loads of vehicles and plenty of spares to keep them going. source of spares for the ALX300s aswell

I not sure more E200 which are likely just as knackered as the current fleet is the right way to go about things. While it be nice to see deckers back in Hartlepool I don’t think getting stock that 20 year old is the best idea either the fleet ideally needs buses that are less than 5 year old and in good condition which is part of the problem now the youngest buses in the fleet are 12 years old the oldest is 19 it’s not just a few either it’s the main fleet which is the problem.

(21 Apr 2023, 7:22 pm)col87 wrote I not sure more E200 which are likely just as knackered as the current fleet is the right way to go about things. While it be nice to see deckers back in Hartlepool I don’t think getting stock that 20 year old is the best idea either the fleet ideally needs buses that are less than 5 year old and in good condition which is part of the problem now the youngest buses in the fleet are 12 years old the oldest is 19 it’s not just a few either it’s the main fleet which is the problem.

The vehicles in Hartlepool are pretty rank now. I would also like to see some new services. Parts of the town have no services  eg West View Road (unless you live at each end , in such the 6 or 7 is available).

(21 Apr 2023, 9:34 pm)Economic505 wrote The vehicles in Hartlepool are pretty rank now. I would also like to see some new services. Parts of the town have no services  eg West View Road (unless you live at each end , in such the 6 or 7 is available).

yes most of the fleet is. The only reason 34605 is one of the decent buses in the fleet is because it spent months of the road been sorted not really something they can do with the rest of the fleet.  Investment is desperately needed but Stagecoach over the past decade have shown though spending no money and reducing services that they don’t really care about Hartlepool.  3 buses on loan is quite frankly ridiculous and shows that despite the best efforts of the engineering staff that the fleet really is knackered and even though I not a fan of them I think withdrawing and scrapping some of the better Manviros last autumn like 39666 has partly caused this situation when you have heaps like 36461 which is lucky if it manages a week without problems  still in daily use. I can’t speak for the drivers but I get the feeling the majority are fed up and in last year quite a few have left with a high turnover of replacements coming and going so really Stagecoach either have to invest or sell because frankly the fleet and network is not good enough and I have to wonder how much longer people will put up with it.

(21 Apr 2023, 10:42 pm)col87 wrote yes most of the fleet is. The only reason 34605 is one of the decent buses in the fleet is because it spent months of the road been sorted not really something they can do with the rest of the fleet.  Investment is desperately needed but Stagecoach over the past decade have shown though spending no money and reducing services that they don’t really care about Hartlepool.  3 buses on loan is quite frankly ridiculous and shows that despite the best efforts of the engineering staff that the fleet really is knackered and even though I not a few of them I think withdrawing and scrapping some of the better Manviros last autumn like 39666 has partly caused this situation when you have heaps like 36461 which is lucky if it manages a week without problems  still in daily use. I can’t speak for the drivers but I get the feeling the majority are fed up and in last year quite a few have left with a high turnover of replacements coming and going so really Stagecoach either have to invest or sell because frankly the fleet and network is not good enough and I have to wonder how much longer people will put up with it.

Is hartlepool profitable?

(21 Apr 2023, 10:44 pm)Unber43 wrote Is hartlepool profitable?

SNE has a near monopoly of services in Hartlepool. Surely they make some profit?

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(21 Apr 2023, 10:55 pm)Economic505 wrote SNE has a near monopoly of services in Hartlepool. Surely they make some profit?

If no profit is made, there had to be a radical solution, as the town needs a good bus service. Time for the TVCA mayor to do something useful , rather than sticking plasters like Tees Flex.

(21 Apr 2023, 10:44 pm)Unber43 wrote Is hartlepool profitable?

Does it matter ?  They are they to provide bus services for the town if they can’t do it then they should really sell up.  Considering they have the monopoly if they can’t make profit then it really they own fault although if they was a better then it might just actually help.  It must have been making some profit before the 2010 changes happened otherwise I doubt they would have spent money on the Manviro brand new for the town but that was 2008 and other a than a few knackered cascades they has been nothing done since then. The network itself is I would say quite stale as though they not bothered as they quite happy to just let the Arriva 23 24 serve the Marina for the western end of the town with only the 7 and 36 serving it. They have more services serving Raby Road and the outdated Mill House leisure centre than they do the Marina where people do actually want to go.

(21 Apr 2023, 10:55 pm)Economic505 wrote SNE has a near monopoly of services in Hartlepool. Surely they make some profit?

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If no profit is made, there had to be a radical solution, as the town needs a good bus service. Time for the TVCA mayor to do something useful , rather than sticking plasters like Tees Flex.

Too busy having holidays in Dubai to sort that out.

Maybe hartlepool driver should go on strike to get better buses as i can imagine those man e200s are a pain to drive. Stagecoach wont invest unless something happens like a strike but ig that didnt work out for sunderland.

They're probably sick of breaking down and waiting hours for recovery

Hartlepool and Stockton depots have a lot old buses like E200 and E300 and alx300 buses so think next north east get new buses should go to Hartlepool and Stockton I know Newcastle and Sunderland getting new buses for clean zone but that think?

(21 Apr 2023, 11:55 pm)glen wrote Hartlepool and Stockton depots have a lot old buses like E200 and E300 and alx300 buses so think next north east get new buses should go to Hartlepool and Stockton I know Newcastle and Sunderland getting new buses for clean zone but that think?

But Stockton had 2 batches of E300s and the E200 MMC in 2019 so they’re hardly being neglected Glen. Second most investment outside of Newcastle. Hartlepool absolutely needs something sorting though.

kind regards

All the E300 64 , 65 reg have go to Newcastle now because of clear air zone come a long that why mate all of alx300 08 and 09 and 59 reg to Stockton depot now that why.

(21 Apr 2023, 10:55 pm)Economic505 wrote SNE has a near monopoly of services in Hartlepool. Surely they make some profit?

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If no profit is made, there had to be a radical solution, as the town needs a good bus service. Time for the TVCA mayor to do something useful , rather than sticking plasters like Tees Flex.

The problem is the money routes which have potential are ran by Arriva Durham (23/24).

No-one in Hartlepool wants to go to Hartlepool town centre yet every single bus at the place goes there. 

Want to go to the local hospital at Stockton - no can't do that. 

Want to go shopping at Teesside Park - no can't do that. 

Its another place where the network has stuck in time yet the real world has moved on as much as I don't agree with changing routes every week either but you have to adapt

Dont you dare say that you want the alx300s withdrawn

Some great comments on here ?
Once again I find myself repeating that the MANs are absolutely fine... once your used to the retarder - they're just getting on a bit.
Hartlepool doesn't necessarily need new buses, just better maintenance. There's depots out there with far older buses running in better states than Stagecoach Hartlepool. The problem is that engineering are tasked with essentially fixing buses up with duct tape rather than doing a proper job of it.
Yes of course it matters if routes are profitable. As again I've repeated over and over... Stagecoach, like any other commercial organisation are there simply to make money in whatever sector they're in. Providing public services is the responsibility of local councils.
The possibility of driver going on strike for new buses is somewhere near zero. While it can be irritating driving around in a complete bag of shite for hours can be irritating nobody would actually strike over it unless they were defective to the point of being dangerous. By which point DVSA would likely be involved I was incredibly happy to wave goodbye to 36467 but I wouldn't have went on strike if I'd been forced to drive it every day.
Drivers tend not to be that bothered about a bus breaking down - unless its just before a break or finishing time. If anything it makes the job easier and your certainly not stuck with it for hours. A replacement at Hartlepool will generally arrive within half a hour, by then you've chucked your customers onto the bus behind and after that the knackered one is engineerings problem and we get to miss part of the route out, sometimes an entire run ?
Plenty of people want to go to Hartlepool town centre, ask any pass carrying pensioner in the area between 0700 and 1800 that go there daily. Bizarrely it seems to be the highlight of they're life!
Yes every bus goes there, go to any town or city and you'll find almost all routes go to their town centre.
Again, ensuring there are buses to North Tees Hospital are the councils responsibility and as Arriva also serve both hospitals it's the blame can't be leveled entirely at Stageoach. Multiple schemes for this have existed along the years and this one https://connectteesvalley.com/data/timet...010718.pdf is still running!
And another area I'vd commented on sooo many times... Teesside Park! I don't think there's many that endure the hour on the 23 from Hartlepool to Dalton Park so why the hell would anyone want to travel for a hour to Teesside Park? And a bus from Hartlepool to Teeside park would take roughly that long.

(21 Apr 2023, 11:34 pm)Lollist wrote Maybe hartlepool driver should go on strike to get better buses as i can imagine those man e200s are a pain to drive. Stagecoach wont invest unless something happens like a strike but ig that didnt work out for sunderland.

I seriously doubt much would happen if Hartlepool drivers went on strike. There's not much a company or union will do if the drivers complain 'the buses are rubbish'. Striking for 'better buses' would drive passengers up the wall, leads to less revenue, less investment etc etc

(22 Apr 2023, 8:37 am)tcts24 wrote Plenty of people want to go to Hartlepool town centre, ask any pass carrying pensioner in the area between 0700 and 1800 that go there daily. Bizarrely it seems to be the highlight of they're life!
Yes every bus goes there, go to any town or city and you'll find almost all routes go to their town centre.

This is the same in Sunderland - you get loads of people getting on and asking for a single to the town - you'll sometimes enter fawcett street with over 20-30 people on yet four is a lot of people staying on through (16 is the exception cos of the hospital), yet apparently no one goes there. If that were true, surely the 18 and 99 would be well used? Busiest I've been on the 18, I picked up 20 people in the town - the bus was nearly empty by Seaburn and I didn't have more than 5 or 6 on thereafter.

As I said when the caz was announced it would simply make other areas of the north east worse off and more polluted

(22 Apr 2023, 9:08 am)F114TML wrote This is the same in Sunderland - you get loads of people getting on and asking for a single to the town - you'll sometimes enter fawcett street with over 20-30 people on yet four is a lot of people staying on through (16 is the exception cos of the hospital), yet apparently no one goes there. If that were true, surely the 18 and 99 would be well used?

The problem is you also can't get a parking space at all the retail parks and supermarkets which is an awful lot more than 30 people.

The simple fact is people aren't using the buses at all because they can't. 

The 18 is infrequent and doesn't serve the places either so it no use same as the 99. People don't want to go into Sunderland unless they have no choice there's nothing there, same as Hartlepool (which is even worse). 

If people want car usage down and people using public transport a good start would be to have the public transport going to the place where people actually want to be. 

Why not have a bus station at Teesside Park instead of Stockton / Middlesbrough. Why not have a bus station at the Tindale Crescent instead of Bishop Auckland. The Metro Centre does well there's no reason why they can't either and all arguably more central for people changing anyway. Same as Silverlink.

(22 Apr 2023, 9:18 am)Storx wrote The problem is you also can't get a parking space at all the retail parks and supermarkets which is an awful lot more than 30 people.

The simple fact is people aren't using the buses at all because they can't. 

The 18 is infrequent and doesn't serve the places either so it no use same as the 99. People don't want to go into Sunderland unless they have no choice there's nothing there, same as Hartlepool (which is even worse). 

If people want car usage down and people using public transport a good start would be to have the public transport going to the place where people actually want to be. 

Why not have a bus station at Teesside Park instead of Stockton / Middlesbrough. Why not have a bus station at the Tindale Crescent instead of Bishop Auckland. The Metro Centre does well there's no reason why they can't either and all arguably more central for people changing anyway. Same as Silverlink.

What do you mean there’s nothing in Sunderland? Great Sea Front; best Theatre in the North, some great pubs . Not arsed about shops. I also frequent Hartlepool - Marina, Headland etc .

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(22 Apr 2023, 9:28 am)Economic505 wrote What do you mean there’s nothing in Sunderland? Great Sea Front; best Theatre in the North, some great pubs . Not arsed about shops. I also frequent Hartlepool - Marina, Headland etc .

If it were a choice of Hell or the Metrocentre, happy to spend time with the Devil.

(22 Apr 2023, 9:28 am)Economic505 wrote What do you mean there’s nothing in Sunderland? Great Sea Front; best Theatre in the North, some great pubs . Not arsed about shops. I also frequent Hartlepool - Marina, Headland etc .

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If it were a choice of Hell or the Metrocentre, happy to spend time with the Devil.

Just the centre mate about how ever bus goes there - it was retail orientated though that. I actually agree about the Seafront mind but it's the sort of place that's a complete nightmare to get to from most of Sunderland without yet again changing and sometimes involving walks since the E's don't serve the bus station.

I know there's the problems with commercial but if people seriously want car usage down you can't just ignore it and building a random P&R somewhere won't do anything.

(22 Apr 2023, 10:12 am)Storx wrote Just the centre mate about how ever bus goes there - it was retail orientated though that. I actually agree about the Seafront mind but it's the sort of place that's a complete nightmare to get to from most of Sunderland without yet again changing and sometimes involving walks since the E's don't serve the bus station.

I know there's the problems with commercial but if people seriously want car usage down you can't just ignore it and building a random P&R somewhere won't do anything.

I think more town buses should go to Seaburn. Before 1986, you had the 102/103/124/106/118/119/505/506.

(22 Apr 2023, 10:32 am)Economic505 wrote I think more town buses should go to Seaburn. Before 1986, you had the 102/103/124/106/118/119/505/506.

Aye agreed tbh.

(22 Apr 2023, 10:32 am)Economic505 wrote I think more town buses should go to Seaburn. Before 1986, you had the 102/103/124/106/118/119/505/506.

That’s what happens when the government privatises the bus network, all for profit and not customers/passenger needs, local authorities can only do so much with the budget there get from the government. And each year the budget gets reduced, maybe if the government stopped giving free handouts to private bus companies and stop funding new buses and get the bus shareholders to fork out and use that money to be pay for new buses themselves, one bus from each person home to Seaburn is not profitable, nothing wrong with changing buses in town or elsewhere to go forward to your destination, even though I don’t trust the pathetic excuse of this government, the government needs to do a u turn and take back control of the bus industry


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Have to disagree with certain posts on here.

First point Stagecoach Hartlepool do need new buses. As TCTS24 has proved the Manviros are probably split between drivers who like them those who hate them and those not bothered either way. However 24122 is from what I have seen proving popular and that’s with drivers and passengers who like it better than most of the fleet Hartlepool does have. Although I would agree I doubt drivers will go on strike over the state of the fleet as long as they getting a decent wage.

Stagecoach can make profit in Hartlepool if they made the effort to provide a better service. At the moment they not providing good enough services to the main areas people want to go to. At the moment to get to the University Hospital from the Headland means going to the Town Centre and trying to connect to the 1.
It’s the same with Teesbay retail park if they had a service actually going into it I reckon it could do well. I would be interested to see how well if they experimented with it.
At the moment especially this time of year it’s quite funny how both the costal areas where people will want to go to only has a single service yet all all services apart from the 1 go to Owton Manor. You can’t get to Seaton from Owton Manor again it means getting a bus to the town then trying to connect with the 1. You can’t even get a bus between Seaton and the Headland anymore either because again getting the 1 to the town and then getting the 7. I think if Stagecoach had actually planned a better network then it would see more passengers and actually increase profit. Same with people actually getting on the bus you don’t need to be an enthusiast to know the fleet is knackered the majority of the town knows it is. Better buses would actually get more people to use them.

The point about a service between Hartlepool and North Tees Hospital. Yes actually that is mostly Stagecoach fault because them and Arriva decided to carve areas up between themselves with an agreement they wouldn’t compete in each others areas which is why Arriva won’t do a service even though it’s not difficult to do one but either having it as a Via point as an additional service to Stockton or a proper service between both hospitals.

(22 Apr 2023, 8:37 am)tcts24 wrote Some great comments on here ?
Once again I find myself repeating that the MANs are absolutely fine... once your used to the retarder - they're just getting on a bit.
Hartlepool doesn't necessarily need new buses, just better maintenance. There's depots out there with far older buses running in better states than Stagecoach Hartlepool. The problem is that engineering are tasked with essentially fixing buses up with duct tape rather than doing a proper job of it.
Yes of course it matters if routes are profitable. As again I've repeated over and over... Stagecoach, like any other commercial organisation are there simply to make money in whatever sector they're in. Providing public services is the responsibility of local councils.
The possibility of driver going on strike for new buses is somewhere near zero. While it can be irritating driving around in a complete bag of shite for hours can be irritating nobody would actually strike over it unless they were defective to the point of being dangerous. By which point DVSA would likely be involved I was incredibly happy to wave goodbye to 36467 but I wouldn't have went on strike if I'd been forced to drive it every day.
Drivers tend not to be that bothered about a bus breaking down - unless its just before a break or finishing time. If anything it makes the job easier and your certainly not stuck with it for hours. A replacement at Hartlepool will generally arrive within half a hour, by then you've chucked your customers onto the bus behind and after that the knackered one is engineerings problem and we get to miss part of the route out, sometimes an entire run ?
Plenty of people want to go to Hartlepool town centre, ask any pass carrying pensioner in the area between 0700 and 1800 that go there daily. Bizarrely it seems to be the highlight of they're life!
Yes every bus goes there, go to any town or city and you'll find almost all routes go to their town centre.
Again, ensuring there are buses to North Tees Hospital are the councils responsibility and as Arriva also serve both hospitals it's the blame can't be leveled entirely at Stageoach . Multiple schemes for this have existed along the years and this one https://connectteesvalley.com/data/timet...010718.pdf is still running!
And another area I'vd commented on sooo many times... Teesside Park! I don't think there's many that endure the hour on the 23 from Hartlepool to Dalton Park so why the hell would anyone want to travel for a hour to Teesside Park? And a bus from Hartlepool to Teeside park would take roughly that long.

Why is it the councils job to support what should be a viable commercial opportunity for a private operator? 

North Tees has a huge catchment area L, can provide huge commercial opportunities and is essentially ignored by public transport operators for some bizarre reason.

(22 Apr 2023, 2:32 pm)Storx wrote Always seem an easy one to fix especially between Billingham at there at least imo. Something like these below would improve things massively and other than the Headlands issue you mentioned, fixes pretty much everything:




With three new services the

1 (Red)
2 (Purple)
3 (Light Blue)

All every 30 minutes and the 10, 37 and 59 all replaced by it.

No-one loses out but it opens new connections to Teesside Park which is horribly served but at the same time opens links to James Cook which is just as bad from the Stockton area. East to West services across Middlesbrough and Stockton are pretty much non existent atm.

It's not as Arriva can complain as it's all existing services in there area.

The existing services from/to Teesside Park run from both hubs in Middlesbrough & Stockton. I tried connecting Stockton & James Cook Hospital at Stagecarriage and the market just want there.
Also a lot of the 59’s route is also served by the 13/13a which offers links to Middlesbrough already.

I definitely think there needs to be a link between the two hospitals but the only way that would be viable is to run it around a handful of school contracts - and adding other employment sites and other unserved bits such as Amazon and Wolviston Village.


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(22 Apr 2023, 2:21 pm)Andreos1 wrote Why is it the councils job to support what should be a viable commercial opportunity for a private operator? 

North Tees has a huge catchment area L, can provide huge commercial opportunities and is essentially ignored by public transport operators for some bizarre reason.

Because it doesn't fit with drawing a line that must go into the centre of Stockton since everyone wants to go shopping there - at the wide range of shops available and wide array of entertainment like counting the number of beggars and how many of them are drunk and fighting.

All those people queuing from Portrack Lane to get to Teesside Park before Christmas just didn't exist and are bad people or should be using the wide array of buses available like the X12 and the erm.. walking? 

It's ironic the villages which can use Teesflex have a better bus service than the majority of the urban area to the major shopping destination and arguably leisure aswell since the bowling alley and cinema are there, in the area.