Building on the points made earlier in the main GNE forum, thought it would be worth making a new thread to discuss and compare branding and the different strategies operators use.

Whilst inovative 6 or 7 years ago with the funky colours and imaginative names, personally I think GNE have gone too far.
Having worked and spent a lot of time in Nottingham, it has been a success down there, however the network is totally different, with the majority of routes being similar to Stagecoach City Centre to Estates type services.

However when looking at ANE or SNE, their branding isnt as brash or over the top as the ones GNE have and they still maintain their corporate identities.

I personally think GNE have gone way too far. Whilst I agree that a lot of the brands look good, they've got too many branded buses now, to the point it confuses customers. The confusion coming when the branded bus is not on the correct route.

I'd of personally left it at the major routes, like TTX, X66, Red Arrows, and Citylink for example. The rest being left in fleet livery.

I personally think GNE have gone way too far. Whilst I agree that a lot of the brands look good, they've got too many branded buses now, to the point it confuses customers. The confusion coming when the branded bus is not on the correct route.

I'd of personally left it at the major routes, like TTX, X66, Red Arrows, and Citylink for example. The rest being left in fleet livery.

Hi, totally agree with core routes being branded but its far too often now where branded buses on wrong routes. I once saw an Orbit Versa on the 58 on the same section of route it shares with 51/52. Most people assume its 51/52 because of the colour without checking the number!

I never really saw the point of it to begin with. For me, the constant re-painting and re-branding of certain services must cost the company money, and, although I've been told that the cost isn't that much, I am still of the opinion that any savings made (by not branding) could be passed on to the customer through reduced fares: a tried and tested way of attracting new custom.

With flagship or long-distance routes, then yes, maybe there are marketing opportunities available to promote the route and attract new customers (however skeptical I may be) through a clever brand-name and dedicated vehicles. But for other routes, like the 69 - a route that has seen two brand-names attached to it (Kingfisher and Pulse) - why bother.

Personally, I would like to see the introduction of two brands. A standard corporate identity used for the majority of services; and the introduction of an old 'Express-Link' type identity which symbolises comfort and luxuriousness for flagship (with localised decals for the 10 and 21) and express services.

I have to say that branding can be useful to make a service stand out but becomes useless when there are so many services branded. I also see an increasung range of unbranded different coloured buses which looks a bit if a mess.

I really think they need to take a leaf out of the Brighton or Edinburgh companies - smart basic liveries with key detail differences.

Kevin

Hi, totally agree with core routes being branded but its far too often now where branded buses on wrong routes. I once saw an Orbit Versa on the 58 on the same section of route it shares with 51/52. Most people assume its 51/52 because of the colour without checking the number!

That's exactly the problem. Martin Harris once told me on openline that the company's aim was to market a bus service recognisable as a brand. That doesn't work when brands are mismatched. It's exactly the same principal as buying an iPhone, and finding a Nokia 3310 in the box. Nowt against the latter like...

With regard to the ten and 21, are these flagship routes only because of the marketing, branding etc.
In my mind a flagship is something which leads by example and is something to be proud of. Services which regularly have service changes and revisions or rebrands surely aren't the finished article and can't be used as that flagship example due to that up-heaval.
Whereas a settled brand or service, could be viewed as a flagship?

After this week, I'm a big fan of the way branding is done on the south coast. They brand routes in such a way that they never lose their corporate identity, and everyone clearly knows it's a Brighton & Hove bus. Few examples;

Service 49 branding.


Service 25 branding


'The Key' advertising branding.


Another thing I noticed is that a lot of buses that went towards Brighton (and some other) Station had a British Rail logo above the blind. Quite a good idea.

It might not win any awards or cost much money to do, but thats exactly how it should be.

It doesnt look gimmicky and probably works just as well (if not better) as a garish orange bus with flowers on the side....

Quite a good read www.passengertransport.co.uk/2013/06/what-makes-a-really-good-bus-company/.

There are some subtle digs and some not so subtle ones too.

With regard to the ten and 21, are these flagship routes only because of the marketing, branding etc.
In my mind a flagship is something which leads by example and is something to be proud of. Services which regularly have service changes and revisions or rebrands surely aren't the finished article and can't be used as that flagship example due to that up-heaval.
Whereas a settled brand or service, could be viewed as a flagship?

In terms of the Angel it's flagship in that its the original route (or part of) Northern General.

Secondary would be frequency, the fact it no doubts generates masses of profit on the busiest and most lucrative corridor and that it serves 2 major cities and 4 major towns

Similar to BA001 is the British Airways flagship route and Iberia's is the MAD-BCN route

With regard to the ten and 21, are these flagship routes only because of the marketing, branding etc.
In my mind a flagship is something which leads by example and is something to be proud of. Services which regularly have service changes and revisions or rebrands surely aren't the finished article and can't be used as that flagship example due to that up-heaval.
Whereas a settled brand or service, could be viewed as a flagship?

I'm not sure about that, as the 21 has had 4(?) rebrands since it started and the vehicles were essentially downgraded each time until the new hybrids arrived. I don't really think branding is that important, and having fewer branded routes allows for greater flexibility when it comes to vehicle allocation. I don't, however, agree with scrapping branding altogether.

Just look at the original brand - (Photo from Wikipedia)
http://tinyurl.com/l32ussg

Then after the Mylenniums came this - (Photo by Simon Davison)
http://tinyurl.com/mzq5ger

I get what your both saying and can see what points you are putting across, but was the 723 seen as a flagship service? It certainly followed the same historic route and made money.

Before the deckers came, was the 10 a flagship? Or was it a service which was pump primed, struggled to keep time, couldn't cope with numbers and has had regular service revisions?

Until GNE spent some time marketing and advertising the X10, it was infrequent and was barely used.

How often do BA/Iberia change or alter their flagship service?

The 21 has had the '24 hour service', the pink angels, the red angels and now the green angels, including a constant replacement of vehicles, including the Presidents, Omnicities, Loynes, Vykings and now the Hybrids.
Customers regularly complain with timings, end points, freqencies etc all being changed on an all to regular basis.
According to www.businessdictionary.com a flagship (or core product) is definded as: 'A company's core product or service which is most recognizable by the public and embodies the expertise, values and product line of the business.'

If the 21 is seen as the brand which embodies the expertise and values of GNE, then no wonder people have the perception of them that they do.
How can a service which has had so many changes be recognisable as a product?
How can the service which struggles to maintain a full or even frequency, embody the expertise of its operator and int turn be viewed as a flagship?

Marketing alone can't make a product or service a flagship overnight, no matter how much bosses hope it will.
Heinz Beans and Kellogs Cornflakes have been around years and are the established embodiment of the manufacturer, no matter how much advertising is spent on promoting fads such as Heinz Lemon and Garlic Mayo with a hint of corriander & tarragon or Kellogs Coco Pops Milky Straw things.

If GNE can leave a 'product' or service alone long enough, for it to establish itself, for it to become even unique, then and only then, can it be percieved as a potential flagship.

To me, the 10, 21 and X9/10 are mobile advertisments, as well as being cash cow products, running between several important towns/cities and are only doing so to appease shareholders as well as having one up with the competion - they aren't at all set up with customers interests at heart.
They aren't flagship services.

When the likes of the 194 or 301 were used on company literature or advertising, it wasn't because of its frequency, funky colours or modern vehicles. They were used because they were established services, serving massive parts of the population and were instantly recognisable. The ideal definition of a core service.

I do agree with some of what you say.

But take the example of Stagecoach Newcastle's 39 and 40 - this service was not 'branded' until fairly recently and even now they're still technically in Stagecoach livery - albeit in green rather than the 'normal' colours. This service was as popular when it wasn't branded as it is now - it's managed to gain enough passengers to operate to a combined frequency of up to every 5 minutes (which I think is the most frequent bus service in Newcastle?) without branding. That's probably just down to the route it takes, but I suppose that just shows that if you can choose a route correctly and provide a good service, you won't need gimmicks to attract customers.

That's exactly my point.

How long has that service been established? Granted there will have been minor tweaks and changes, but not the wholesale changes seen on other services or routes.
It doesn't need garish advertising or funky branding. People know the service, know where they can go, how much it will cost and dont need to worry about zones or missing an infrequent connection.
The 39/40 covers a massive proportion of the city and the suburbs, is popular and is recognisable as a Stagecoach service.

Whether it is the 'flagship' service is open to debate - but it hits all of the criteria according to the definition mentioned earlier.

Under this logic the 60 would be one of GNE's flagships. A route which has always been there in some form Sunderland-Ryhope-Seaham-Parkside with a regular 'Drifter' brand under two colour schemes albeit. But it's one of those service which has never been largely messed about with. I have no doubt that it most be fairly profitable.

It isn't neccessarily about heritage and consistency, flagship a lot of the time is an excercise in marketing.

GNE trumpet the Angel on the basis of the hybrid buses, the 7/8 frequency, wi-fi, next stop information and the fact it serves Durham, Angel and Newcastle. Probably the 3 key touristy areas of Tyne and Wear and that very busy Durham Road corridor.

They don't want you to remember the disaster of the Omnicities etc.

Was the 723 a flagship? I'd say it was in an age when a bus service was just a set of numbers and 4 wheels as opposed to a social media hub (perceived anyway) though its importance to GNE was probably diminished when it was joint op-d with United then Arriva before the dying days as a limited stop service alongside the 724 (disaster that was)

Again, I get what you are saying - but if we are using the definition above, then which of the brands such as the 21 or 60, is the one passengers most identify with and embodies the company?

Is the 21 the flagship? The 10? Tyne Tees Express? The Red Arrows? They all have the same spec (apart from the hybrid engine) as each other. What about The Crusader? The Drifter? The Waggonway (connecting with three touristy areas, providing essential local links, connecting 2 major towns and a city, serving one of the biggest hospitals and cemetries in the area, definately more vital and important to some people than the 21...).
Could passengers get to the destinations served by the 21 or 60 if they were stopped?

GNE trumpet the 21 and their other branded services too.
Is one trumpeted over the other regionwide or is it a case of being trumpeted locally? If it is locally, then you could argue the possibility of 'local' flagships.

The 723 probably wasnt a flagship, but met the criteria you put forward initially for the 21 being a flagship in that it covered the original route. It also served a massive part of the region, connecting and serving possibly more places than the 21 does.
It used the new, modern vehicles at the time too.

Im not sure a specific brand amongst so many others can be the flagship brand.
If there was one brand like the old Superliner or Expresslink brand that had decent spec, then maybe it could be the flagship.

I'd argue the TEN, Red Arrows, Angel, and the TTX are the flagship services. Simply because those are the services GNE seem to be investing hard cash into at the moment.

I'd argue the TEN, Red Arrows, Angel, and the TTX are the flagship services. Simply because those are the services GNE seem to be investing hard cash into at the moment.

Don't forget the M1, since it looks like its getting the Citaro K, its gonna be Euro 6 Spec XD

Or the Saltwell Park nor the 20, 56 or 58...

Just because money is being spent, it doesn't make it the flagship route though does it?
Kelloggs spend a fortune on launching a new version of Special K with berries and added vitamins - it certainly isn't their flagship brand or product.

I was jking hence the XD...

haha were you? I wondered what the squiggle was! I can just about manage a wink and a sticky out tongue

Haha yup , sorry thought u knew what it ment

I think it's hard to tell what's flagship and what isn't until we know how much each service makes in terms of numbers and profits.

For example, the X66 is probably one of GNE's busiest services and also one of the most frequent - but in terms of profits - I doubt they're high due to the number of passes shown when boarding, rather than fare-paying passengers. I think that's also why the X66 is so expensive - isn't it like £3 for a single?

That's a good point. The X66 is unique link, has been branded since the 1980s and generally has money invested on it - however, won't take much money from passengers.

Getting away from the flagship topic slightly, I have been working in Bishop Auckland today - the Arriva X1 was running just in front of the OK1 about 30mins ago.
Standing room only on the Arriva - quite a few seats on the GNE service, despite both buses being similar types.

Arriva has a massive presence in the town, but is a relatively new 'name'. It hasnt spent a fortune on funky names or colours either.
GNE went back into the town after having a sole 21 (and more recently the Pronto) representing the company and in turn, have half heartedly created a couple of new routes, relying on a historic name to attract passengers.
GNE actively promote the buzzfare saying that it can save money. For a fairly isolated community, with not many GNE connections (but plenty of ANE connections) - what are the chances passengers of getting the OK1 and buying a buzzfare ticket?

Has the OK1 been cancelled because of poor planning, poor connections or because they relied too much on the historic branding to generate custom?
If more time had been spent on improving connections at various points of the route, so that the buzzfare was an attractive ticketing option over the Arriva tickets, rather than re-introduce OK (as nostalgic as it was), a betting man would have staked money on it being a tad more successful.

The Arriva X1 has taken off far better than anyone expected, and in this case, beating the comparative GNE service by a long way in terms of loadings and revenue. The fact that GNE are now withdrawing from the area is a victory for Arriva (rare given the amount of victories for GNE in the recent past...) and the X1 has grown into a fully viable commercial service, now expanded to serve Tow Law every hour in place of the 1B. Watch out for more brandings coming from Arriva in the next year or so too.

Without getting too off-topic (we have a thread for discussing and debating effectiveness of branding), it must first be noted that the ex-"Blaydon Racers" Renowns did not receive a repaint - just received vinyls on top of its already yellow base livery. This in itself has increased the cost-effectiveness of the the "Centurion" brand. Of course 5164-66 all received repaints, with 5164 and 5166 going yellow, and 5165 going red. If all of these Renowns were to have received a repaint, whichever service they could have gone to would have had to generate enough revenue to pay for these repaints before anything else - a significantly higher cost than what it was to simply brand them as "Centurion".
Customers know that, if a service is not branded, they should expect a "Northern" branded vehicle. Many customers also know that if vehicles are VOR (which they often are), they should exclude a "Northern" branded vehicle from appearing on their service. It is when a branded vehicle appears off-route where there is a problem, but of course Go North East have to reduce running costs on Sundays as much as possible to make services commercially viable. All operators do this (it's the reason why you won't see many Stagecoach ALX300s out in Sunderland on Sundays for example), it is just more noticeable when Go North East do it as they're essentially appearing off-route. The former is being worked on at present and hopefully in a few months time, "odd workings" should be far less frequent, and if a breakdown occurs, whatever vehicle is closest can attend for one run before a proper replacement can be organised (a "Northern" branded vehicle). The latter probably isn't being worked on, despite it irritating many of us (myself included) so much.

If Go North East were to have repainted and branded the two deckers that have recently transferred to Percy Main as per scholar requirements on services 17/307, just after applying special M-Ticket vinyls to 3803 back in April of this year, wouldn't they just be adding to the cost of the "Centurion" 17 service? More revenue to get back, and another 'pointless repaint' as you mentioned a few weeks ago..?
Out of all of this, the 17 has gained an additional spare vehicle (5166). 5164 has been transferred to Saltmeadows to act as a spare for "Pulse" services 67/69 (which will hopefully improve the reliability of these services), but 5166 - so far - has remained at Percy Main.
Do note that Go North East are now also generating revenue by the use of advertisements on these vehicles - as of August this year (see photo here). This again will help with how cost-effective the branding on this service is as it will again be generating revenue easily.

Go North East are happy because they're making a profit, customers are happy because they have a service which has a brand identity.

Well, where do I begin? I think first of all, I'm aware of the Renowns weren't repainted but it's just I think they might as well of branded the two vehicles and a full centurion fleet to match the PVR, obviously northern vehicles will appear from time to time I'm not daft but this means that many vehicles arent branded each day. And if as you say 5166 is a spare it should be branded or into Northern. About Sundays and evenings interworking it's something which we could all discuss until we're blue in the face. Drifters on the 42, Waggonways on the 34A, North Tyne Links on the 17/17A the list goes on. But what is the solution GNE are never going to use extra vehicles despite the fact they argueably should. My point is that customers aren't getting brand identity on the centurion service, and some other services. The 61 is another example.. The 'Drifter' 61 since Novemeber 2012 changes the drifter vehicles started interworking with the 38's meaning it was always having at least two runs an hour 'Northern' Branded. Even when the interworking stopped drifter cadets continued to see use on the 38. And then since June 2013 changes the service is never drifter branded and uses the simplicity Versa's.

Branding is a mess at GNE.

What do people think of the branding that is appearing on the 4?

Branding is a mess at GNE.

Yep. The whole idea of branding was to give some identity to services and IIRC at the time it was introduced around 2006, another point was it was to remove buses running round with adverts covering their sides. I understand the revenue issue and its right the GNE are back to adverts - but at the same time they should dump branding, its become utterly pointless now. There are more sporadic misallocations than ever, then the deliberate ones like the 61 using Simplicity Versas for months, as well as all of the Sunday nonsense. Why not just go back to a (decent) corporate livery with minor branding applied if they feel the need.