(17 Aug 2015, 7:24 pm)S813 FVK wrote Surely all of these screenshots would be better off being sent to arriva rather on this thread? Not sure how many arriva behind the scenes members (not drivers) are registered on the forum but by sending the stuff to Arriva directly, they may be able to evaluate the punctuality of the service and then make changes where necessary.

They are going to Arriva, seems like I am getting nowhere with this though.

(17 Aug 2015, 7:30 pm)Jimmi wrote They are going to Arriva, seems like I am getting nowhere with this though.

Have you tried the new complaint process?

(17 Aug 2015, 7:32 pm)aureolin wrote Have you tried the new complaint process?

Pretty standard way of me dealing with complaints. Actually went through the wall when I had to deal with the morons at the Darlington Town Centre branch of the Carphone Warehouse.

(17 Aug 2015, 7:30 pm)Jimmi wrote They are going to Arriva, seems like I am getting nowhere with this though.

its a bit pointless sending them to arriva, they have more access to the AVL than you and they get a report of every service with combined information that you have no access to. If you seen this information you would understand that what you see in the app can be far away from what is happening on the ground. GPS drops out quite often and puts things in the rong place at the wrong time, EE and Vodafone are looking into this.

As an example a ATM can lose GPS and the clock will still keep counting down until the ATM picks enough GPS signals up, if this is after the driver has changed route details on the ATM then the service will still show as getting later and later until it drops off the system or one of the bods in the office notice and pull if from the system. GPS is currently running about 30 seconds slow so a driver can leave a timing point spot on time as his ETM strikes the minute, GPS time will show it as leaving 1 minute early as the system works in minutes not seconds, this is why other operators have not give the public access to the data yet as it still needs ironing out to be reliable.

The E services have been bad today with info I read on Twitter

(18 Aug 2015, 8:06 pm)roar wrote its a bit pointless sending them to arriva, they have more access to the AVL than you and they get a report of every service with combined information that you have no access to. If you seen this information you would understand that what you see in the app can be far away from what is happening on the ground. GPS drops out quite often and puts things in the rong place at the wrong time, EE and Vodafone are looking into this.

As an example a ATM can lose GPS and the clock will still keep counting down until the ATM picks enough GPS signals up, if this is after the driver has changed route details on the ATM then the service will still show as getting later and later until it drops off the system or one of the bods in the office notice and pull if from the system. GPS is currently running about 30 seconds slow so a driver can leave a timing point spot on time as his ETM strikes the minute, GPS time will show it as leaving 1 minute early as the system works in minutes not seconds, this is why other operators have not give the public access to the data yet as it still needs ironing out to be reliable.

I have looked on the Arriva Live Map a few times recently and the positioning of the bus on the map often can be further forward/behind on the map than it is in reality.

I haven't sent the screenshots from the Live Map although I am still complaining to Arriva about the service running behind the timetable although annoyingly in my latest complaint I have snapped and mentioned how I think the delays come from the Bishop Auckland - Shildon section of the route and all I have gotten back is a reply saying "can you please advise the date and time you travelled from Bishop Auckland bus station and when it happened?

Anyone got any ideas on the best way to express my concerns with Arriva?

To roar:

Yep, this is what I've worked out, just from the running record of the 22 - I took to following it once I was on the bus for a while because I was suspicious about the timings at certain points. Husband is currently working on software that does this sort of tracking and has never looked at me like I'm daft when I've discussed it with him.

The 17 is an absolute joke. Now it's 35 minutes late and the 15:02 but hasn't turn up yet either. Absolutely dreadful service this is.

Turned up either 17 or 47 minutes late in the end, either way the 14:32 didn't turn up at all. No explanation from the driver either when other people asked him.

(21 Aug 2015, 2:39 pm)Tom wrote Turned up either 17 or 47 minutes late in the end, either way the 14:32 didn't turn up at all. No explanation from the driver either when other people asked him.

5151 and 6031 are both currently running 12 minutes late - the roadworks at Killingworth are resulting in substantial delays... No fault of Go North East's really: blame the council.

(21 Aug 2015, 2:43 pm)Dan wrote 5151 and 6031 are both currently running 12 minutes late - the roadworks at Killingworth are resulting in substantial delays... No fault of Go North East's really: blame the council.

Did the 14:32 bus come then (from Asda, so couldn't have been as a result of roadworks in Killingworth)? People at the bus stop were saying they were there at 14:25 and it had never came, but I got off the 1 at 14:35ish.

(21 Aug 2015, 2:45 pm)Tom wrote Did the 14:32 bus come then (from Asda, so couldn't have been as a result of roadworks in Killingworth)? People at the bus stop were saying they were there at 14:25 and it had never came, but I got off the 1 at 14:35ish.

Is this the 14:17 bus from Benton ASDA to Whitley Bay?

(21 Aug 2015, 2:51 pm)Dan wrote Is this the 14:17 bus from Benton ASDA to Whitley Bay?

Yes that's the one. Would normally have stayed on the 1 but I saw a couple of people waiting who I knew got the 17.

(21 Aug 2015, 2:53 pm)Tom wrote Yes that's the one. Would normally have stayed on the 1 but I saw a couple of people waiting who I knew got the 17.

Volvo B10BLE 5166 arrived at Benton ASDA 18 minutes late (14:30), so was regulated and dropped back into service later into the route (now on-time again). It's quite possible that this delay meant that, if the driver was to continue in service, s/he would have exceeded his legal driving hours limit, meaning that regulation was the only option in this instance..?

The following bus (5151) actually departed North Shields towards Cramlington on-time, but the roadworks paired with the increased number of passengers due to the previous service being regulated resulted in the return journey from Cramlington to Whitley Bay being delayed.

(21 Aug 2015, 3:26 pm)Dan wrote Volvo B10BLE 5166 arrived at Benton ASDA 18 minutes late (14:30), so was regulated and dropped back into service later into the route (now on-time again). It's quite possible that this delay meant that, if the driver was to continue in service, s/he would have exceeded his legal driving hours limit, meaning that regulation was the only option in this instance..?

The following bus (5151) actually departed North Shields towards Cramlington on-time, but the roadworks paired with the increased number of passengers due to the previous service being regulated resulted in the return journey from Cramlington to Whitley Bay being delayed.

Cheers for the info, the bus still should have really operated though, as it could have departed Benton Asda only 15 minutes late, then made up it's time like the delayed 15:02 but did (was 17 minutes late, but as you mentioned got down to 12 minutes late). But I guess the drivers driving limits are more important if that was the case. There were some very unhappy people on that bus though, complaining about the 17, and also saying apparently the 17 will drop to hourly in October they were saying but I highly doubt that?

(21 Aug 2015, 3:32 pm)Tom wrote Cheers for the info, the bus still should have really operated though, as it could have departed Benton Asda only 15 minutes late, then made up it's time like the delayed 15:02 but did (was 17 minutes late, but as you mentioned got down to 12 minutes late). But I guess the drivers driving limits are more important if that was the case. There were some very unhappy people on that bus though, complaining about the 17, and also saying apparently the 17 will drop to hourly in October they were saying but I highly doubt that?

As we regularly hear on this forum, running a bus operation is neither easy nor simple. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise not everything is black and white.

I don't get involved with where and when driver changeovers take place as it's not my department, but as I suggested previously, it's entirely possible that the control room could have opted to regulate that service on the basis that the driver was close to exceeding his/her driving hours. The supervisors' hands would have been tied in this instance, if this was the case. Bus operators have to make sure there's enough lee-way in duty boards to allow drivers to be late without exceeding driving hours, but they also have to make the duties efficient to avoid wasting resources.

This, I feel, is the disadvantage to cross-town and cross-city services. Whilst popular in years gone by, a large number of bus operators have moved away from this model, and now favour simple streamlined frequencies between the different 'hubs' across their network, allowing passengers to transfer from service to service as appropriate. These services face problems of their own, as a small delay can lead to quite a big impact with services ultimately running in tandem, which is why some members of the forum have suggested that they prefer the old cross-city service model. I recently read quite a cynical article based on Arriva's new "Frequenta" brand, which branded the services under this identity (and those intended to fall under this identity in the future) as some of the most unreliable, given that they regularly bunch up and run in pairs.

In Sunderland, most customers seemingly prefer cross-city services. Stagecoach's services in the area are very successful, but peak-times are a nightmare and regularly see buses running in excess of 20 minutes late. Over in Newcastle, Stanley and Durham, Go North East has recently undertaken a customer consultation which asked for feedback on the company's plans to split the services at Stanley, in an attempt to overcome delays. The company has yet to reveal the results of this customer consultation on the public domain, but I'd expect that most would approve of the "hub" model if it was going to provide a more reliable service.

A timetable has to be realistic and achievable; simply put, if it isn't, changes must be made accordingly. If Go North East's AVL data proves that there are issues with timekeeping on service 17, perhaps the next step to improve it could be by splitting the service.

(21 Aug 2015, 3:49 pm)Dan wrote As we regularly hear on this forum, running a bus operation is neither easy nor simple. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise not everything is black and white.

I don't get involved with where and when driver changeovers take place as it's not my department, but as I suggested previously, it's entirely possible that the control room could have opted to regulate that service on the basis that the driver was close to exceeding his/her driving hours. The supervisors' hands would have been tied in this instance, if this was the case. Bus operators have to make sure there's enough lee-way in duty boards to allow drivers to be late without exceeding driving hours, but they also have to make the duties efficient to avoid wasting resources.

This, I feel, is the disadvantage to cross-town and cross-city services. Whilst popular in years gone by, a large number of bus operators have moved away from this model, and now favour simple streamlined frequencies between the different 'hubs' across their network, allowing passengers to transfer from service to service as appropriate. These services face problems of their own, as a small delay can lead to quite a big impact with services ultimately running in tandem, which is why some members of the forum have suggested that they prefer the old cross-city service model. I recently read quite a cynical article based on Arriva's new "Frequenta" brand, which branded the services under this identity (and those intended to fall under this identity in the future) as some of the most unreliable, given that they regularly bunch up and run in pairs.

In Sunderland, most customers seemingly prefer cross-city services. Stagecoach's services in the area are very successful, but peak-times are a nightmare and regularly see buses running in excess of 20 minutes late. Over in Newcastle, Stanley and Durham, Go North East has recently undertaken a customer consultation which asked for feedback on the company's plans to split the services at Stanley, in an attempt to overcome delays. The company has yet to reveal the results of this customer consultation on the public domain, but I'd expect that most would approve of the "hub" model if it was going to provide a more reliable service.

A timetable has to be realistic and achievable; simply put, if it isn't, changes must be made accordingly. If Go North East's AVL data proves that there are issues with timekeeping on service 17, perhaps the next step to improve it could be by splitting the service.

I completely understand what your saying, and I doubt they would have been as annoyed if the next service was on time too, but as you said it was outside of GNEs control. 

BIB - Best option in my opinion! At present the service is pretty unreliable, and a lot of people not happy with it, especially as in some cases where the 17 is the only option (like Holy Cross, East Howdon etc.).  Used to be great when it was the 17 and 81, which is basically the Sunday operation of the services too. The only issue with that would be driver changeovers, as they take place at North Shields now. There definitley isn't enough layover time on the current timetable (three minutes in Cramlington to get around the roundabout, and load passengers), and three or four minutes at Whitley Bay I think too. Compared to the 17, the Coaster is generally an excellent service (and of a similar style, cross town/city), because it has enough layover time throughout the route, which I personally think the 17 lacks. Hopefully something can be done, and changes are going ahead in October like rumoured, but not to hourly like people are suggesting. To be honest, smaller buses could even be used on the 17 between Rosehill and Cramlington which would justify the extra PVR, something like Cadets or Versas, but I can't see them being an option just yet.

Scheduling is within an operators control though. Does anyone have an idea of how much leeway is there for late running planned into your average schedule?

This is a gripe I have with other industries, where they'll schedule a worker for successive 13 hour shifts. Completely inflexible and no leeway to ensure the regs on daily rest between shifts is met.

(21 Aug 2015, 4:07 pm)aureolin wrote Scheduling is within an operators control though. Does anyone have an idea of how much leeway is there for late running planned into your average schedule?

This is a gripe I have with other industries, where they'll schedule a worker for successive 13 hour shifts. Completely inflexible and no leeway to ensure the regs on daily rest between shifts is met.

My experience is based on the route I drive most often.
We have 5 mins at one end and 3 mins at the other. There are a few minutes spare in the overall route end to end, so we can make up for small delays (we have had a lot of temporary lights and roadworks over the last 6 months, at one point we had 6(!) sets on our route!). I left Middlesbrough 8 late yesterday because of operational difficulties should we say. It took me til Loftus to get those 8 mins back, and that was on a quiet morning outbound run.
At peak times we get more layover at both ends to ensure reliability is kept up for our regular commuters, sometimes upto 20 minutes which gives us a quick break from the driving which always helps too. It also means that if huge delays do happen (which they do from time to time) these longer layovers give us a chance of getting the service back on track.
We recently changed the timetable including swapping routes at the downroute end so that we serve Skinningrove one way and Liverton on the other which overall saves 2-3 mins on a round trip. This was put back into the timetable on the run into Middlesbrough to give us a more robust schedule to deal with heavy loadings or indeed remove any late running from higher up the route.
Having said all of this, there are ultimately some duties that do go near to the 5.5 hours driving time, or indeed short breaks (majority of our breaks are ~45 mins) can also play a part in knocking us back.
All of this considered, I think our 95% punctuality figure for the last month (the best Sapphire route in the country!) is thanks to our close knit team who will try their best to keep things running. Lost mileage is very small too, though I don't have a figure.

(22 Aug 2015, 8:33 pm)tyresmoke wrote All of this considered, I think our 95% punctuality figure for the last month (the best Sapphire route in the country!) is thanks to our close knit team who will try their best to keep things running. Lost mileage is very small too, though I don't have a figure.

Any idea what the punctuality on the X21/22 is like compared to other Sapphire routes, I've noticed a massive improvement over the last few months, some days it is horrific because of unavoidable events, but generally it's quite good?

(23 Aug 2015, 11:41 am)mb134 wrote Any idea what the punctuality on the X21/22 is like compared to other Sapphire routes, I've noticed a massive improvement over the last few months, some days it is horrific because of unavoidable events, but generally it's quite good?

39% of passengers were satisfied with the overall punctuality of Ashington services if that gives you a perspective?

(23 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm)GX03 SVC wrote 39% of passengers were satisfied with the overall punctuality of Ashington services if that gives you a perspective?

Where's this from?

Also, 'Ashington services' will cover the X14/5/8, which will never be as punctual as people will want...

(23 Aug 2015, 12:06 pm)mb134 wrote Where's this from?

Also, 'Ashington services' will cover the X14/5/8, which will never be as punctual as people will want...

Some sort of staff-issued leaflet with the 2014 NE Employee and Customer Satisfaction Results - shaped like (and set out like) a mobile phone.

(23 Aug 2015, 12:19 pm)GX03 SVC wrote Some sort of staff-issued leaflet with the 2014 NE Employee and Customer Satisfaction Results - shaped like (and set out like) a mobile phone.

Interesting,

I know that I'm generally very satisfied, especially recently, there used to be a serious problem with one or two runs but that seems to have been sorted. Everyone I talk to friend and family wise who use the X21/22 in particular are also generally happy.

(23 Aug 2015, 11:41 am)mb134 wrote Any idea what the punctuality on the X21/22 is like compared to other Sapphire routes, I've noticed a massive improvement over the last few months, some days it is horrific because of unavoidable events, but generally it's quite good?

I don't know but I'll try and find out as I'd be interested to see too. Certainly Ashington appear to have improved both reliability, allocation and punctuality over the last few months which can only be good!
I see Redcar's operations every day and the contrast to just a year ago is unreal.

(23 Aug 2015, 12:56 pm)tyresmoke wrote I don't know but I'll try and find out as I'd be interested to see too. Certainly Ashington appear to have improved both reliability, allocation and punctuality over the last few months which can only be good!
I see Redcar's operations every day and the contrast to just a year ago is unreal.

But with new and newish vehicles, the reliability of the service should be good.  Totally understand if they are operating piles of crap, but on most routes they dont.....vehicle breakdowns and lost mileage due to vehicle issues should be rare rather than the norm.

Appreciate there is times when it is out of their control, but other than that, they should be operating a cracking set of routes.

(23 Aug 2015, 1:13 pm)citaro5284 wrote But with new and newish vehicles, the reliability of the service should be good.  Totally understand if they are operating piles of crap, but on most routes they dont.....vehicle breakdowns and lost mileage due to vehicle issues should be rare rather than the norm.

Appreciate there is times when it is out of their control, but other than that, they should be operating a cracking set of routes.

Oh I agree, but what should happen and what does happen don't always match... 
There seems to be a lot less throwing any vehicle anywhere these days with the Sapphire vehicles sticking to the X21/X22 a lot more than they used to. I would hope/think this is down to more care from everyone at the depot!?

The 74 has the worst reliability of any bus

(23 Aug 2015, 1:37 pm)tyresmoke wrote Oh I agree, but what should happen and what does happen don't always match... 
There seems to be a lot less throwing any vehicle anywhere these days with the Sapphire vehicles sticking to the X21/X22 a lot more than they used to. I would hope/think this is down to more care from everyone at the depot!?

I think one thing Ashington do very well is allocate and keep the allocation throughout the day, no constant changing like Blyth, which ends up in confusion. Although this means that services may run a tad later at times, the correct vehicles are generally on their correct route when available

Is there something causing delays to buses in Darlington as I've just looked at the Arriva Live Map and I spotted a service 5A running 22 minutes late and a service X66 running 34 minutes late.