(17 Jan 2016, 9:11 pm)Kuyoyo wrote It depends on how successful at present the X3/X4 is doing on the 'core'. You could go every 10 on the Middlesbrough-Saltburn secition of the routes then have the X4 every 20 to Whitby (all the way as the X4), an hourly X3 to Lingdale, an hourly X3a as now to Skelton ASDA then the X3b could do the Guisborough-Saltburn service but you would have to find a way for it to run between the two without taking on the 5/5a between Skelton and Guisborough.

I have seen the buses full between Redcar and Marske. Standing room only.
The other sections seem to vary, but the peaks between Boro and Redcar will get busy.

The other option is extending a 5a from Brotton to Saltburn, but then you have the X4 to consider.

If the X3a was to be extended, I can't see it doing too much harm to the 5/5a.

Not really any use for arriva to extend any service through to Guisborough to give a direct link, 5/5A to Skelton, then a X3/X3A.
Means people are more likely to buy a day ticket to save money, sadly people paying extra money comes over actually helping passengers!
Stagecarriage ran the 271, but between Guisborough and Saltburn passengers numbers where diabolically bad! As where numbers when arriva ran the 28 To Saltburn

(17 Jan 2016, 9:08 pm)Andreos1 wrote Trying to look at how links between Guisborough and Saltburn can be improved - not the easiest.

The only thing I can think of, is an extension of the X3A, which involves re-routing the service in Skelton.

Rather than the current Saltburn - Skelton - Asda - Skelton -Saltburn; I would re-route it as Saltburn - Asda - Skelton - Guisborough. It would use the bypass to Asda, then High St, Coniston Road, Marske Lane, A173, Guisborough.

If I remember rightly, at one point Stagecarriage operated at 271 service from Guisborough to Saltburn, but it was withdrawn due to low passenger numbers.

(17 Jan 2016, 9:24 pm)peter wrote If I remember rightly, at one point Stagecarriage operated at 271 service from Guisborough to Saltburn, but it was withdrawn due to low passenger numbers.

Yeah, Stagecarriage did do the 271 between Saltburn and Guisborough and it terminated at Eston Tesco. The two times I used the service the loadings were pretty low which is probably the reason for its demise.

(17 Jan 2016, 9:19 pm)Andreos1 wrote I have seen the buses full between Redcar and Marske. Standing room only.
The other sections seem to vary, but the peaks between Boro and Redcar will get busy.

The other option is extending a 5a from Brotton to Saltburn, but then you have the X4 to consider.

If the X3a was to be extended, I can't see it doing too much harm to the 5/5a.

(17 Jan 2016, 9:22 pm)Smarty93 wrote Not really any use for arriva to extend any service through to Guisborough to give a direct link, 5/5A to Skelton, then a X3/X3A.
Means people are more likely to buy a day ticket to save money, sadly people paying extra money comes over actually helping passengers!

I would say a direct link from Skelton ASDA to Carlin How and Loftus is possible more important than a direct bus from Guisborough to Saltburn. Of course, they already have the 5/5a connection in Brotton (10 minute gap each way) but it only takes one to be late and you have 30 minutes to wait heading for ASDA and 20 minutes heading back to Loftus. Of course, issue going from Skelton ASDA to Loftus is it would have to carry on to Easington as there's not really anywhere to turn in Loftus after the Market Place (which is of course why the peak X4s go to Easington).

(17 Jan 2016, 9:32 pm)Kuyoyo wrote I would say a direct link from Skelton ASDA to Carlin How and Loftus is possible more important than a direct bus from Guisborough to Saltburn. Of course, they already have the 5/5a connection in Brotton (10 minute gap each way) but it only takes one to be late and you have 30 minutes to wait heading for ASDA and 20 minutes heading back to Loftus. Of course, issue going from Skelton ASDA to Loftus is it would have to carry on to Easington as there's not really anywhere to turn in Loftus after the Market Place (which is of course why the peak X4s go to Easington).

Unless of course they turned around in the estate bring some class to "Beirut"

(17 Jan 2016, 9:22 pm)Smarty93 wrote Not really any use for arriva to extend any service through to Guisborough to give a direct link, 5/5A to Skelton, then a X3/X3A.
Means people are more likely to buy a day ticket to save money, sadly people paying extra money comes over actually helping passengers!
Stagecarriage ran the 271, but between Guisborough and Saltburn passengers numbers where diabolically bad! As where numbers when arriva ran the 28 To Saltburn

(17 Jan 2016, 9:24 pm)peter wrote If I remember rightly, at one point Stagecarriage operated at 271 service from Guisborough to Saltburn, but it was withdrawn due to low passenger numbers.

I think that's where a bus that extends beyond Saltburn would be different to the Stagecarriage service.
Saltburn isn't the biggest place in the world but add passengers from Marske (who don't want to go via Redcar) in to the mix on top of any passengers using the bus locally and I think it could work.

If I was shopping in Guisbrough, the last thing I would want to do, was gamble on a connection in Skelton or Brotton when carrying bags. Day ticket or not.

I'd love to see the 28 doubled between Guisborough and Lingdale, maybe something we could look to work in with the 81 if NYCC remove the subsidy for the Stokesley extension. This could then potentially work in (or connect) with the X3 in Lingdale via Saltburn to Redcar, giving one huge loop.

(17 Jan 2016, 10:14 pm)tyresmoke wrote I'd love to see the 28 doubled between Guisborough and Lingdale, maybe something we could look to work in with the 81 if NYCC remove the subsidy for the Stokesley extension. This could then potentially work in (or connect) with the X3 in Lingdale via Saltburn to Redcar, giving one huge loop.

And how then do you work the Middlesbrough-Stokesley service in then if the 28 goes half hourly?

(17 Jan 2016, 10:16 pm)Kuyoyo wrote And how then do you work the Middlesbrough-Stokesley service in then if the 28 goes half hourly?

The times would all have to be changed anyway so that wouldn't be a massive issue.
A better way to do it would probably be to have the 5 run every 10 mins to Guisborough with the two extra services running to Lingdale. That would bolster the 5 from Guisborough in towards Middlesbrough whilst providing a better quality, and faster, service from Lingdale and Boosbeck into Middlesbrough. They could then run directly down to Skelton, down to Asda via North Skelton then back via Hollybush (as per today's 5A) before running off to Saltburn, Redcar and Middlesbrough as per the X3 now.

The Lingdale 28 would be cut back to finish at Nunthorpe, although I would prefer the 29 to Stokesley to run every half hour via Longlands as an express (limited stop) up Marton Road, with a 15 or 20 min 28B (as current) to serve all the estates as a stopping service to Nunthorpe. That would need the new shortened 81 to do the estates in Guisborough, which would probably provide a better town service than they do between the 28 and 81 now.

I'd probably take the opportunity to run the 5A via North Skelton and send the long 5 via Asda, giving an Asda bus to people in Loftus - which seems to be a popular connection off the current 5A, and I wonder how much more popular it would be with a direct link.

Obviously, I don't know what the resource cost of all this would be, compared to today's network. This could be a problem without looking further into it.

(17 Jan 2016, 9:08 pm)Andreos1 wrote Trying to look at how links between Guisborough and Saltburn can be improved - not the easiest.

The only thing I can think of, is an extension of the X3A, which involves re-routing the service in Skelton.

Rather than the current Saltburn - Skelton - Asda - Skelton -Saltburn; I would re-route it as Saltburn - Asda - Skelton - Guisborough. It would use the bypass to Asda, then High St, Coniston Road, Marske Lane, A173, Guisborough.

Is there any demand for a direct service between Guisborough and Saltburn? Other companies have tried it and then withdrew their services. Arriva used to do it once upon a time going through Upleatham [268?]. There are now 2 bus options either via Skelton or via Redcar.

(17 Jan 2016, 10:43 pm)tyresmoke wrote The times would all have to be changed anyway so that wouldn't be a massive issue.
A better way to do it would probably be to have the 5 run every 10 mins to Guisborough with the two extra services running to Lingdale. That would bolster the 5 from Guisborough in towards Middlesbrough whilst providing a better quality, and faster, service from Lingdale and Boosbeck into Middlesbrough. They could then run directly down to Skelton, down to Asda via North Skelton then back via Hollybush (as per today's 5A) before running off to Saltburn, Redcar and Middlesbrough as per the X3 now.

The Lingdale 28 would be cut back to finish at Nunthorpe, although I would prefer the 29 to Stokesley to run every half hour via Longlands as an express (limited stop) up Marton Road, with a 15 or 20 min 28B (as current) to serve all the estates as a stopping service to Nunthorpe. That would need the new shortened 81 to do the estates in Guisborough, which would probably provide a better town service than they do between the 28 and 81 now.

I'd probably take the opportunity to run the 5A via North Skelton and send the long 5 via Asda, giving an Asda bus to people in Loftus - which seems to be a popular connection off the current 5A, and I wonder how much more popular it would be with a direct link.

Obviously, I don't know what the resource cost of all this would be, compared to today's network. This could be a problem without looking further into it.

5A direct to Brotton via North Skelton and the 5 via Asda is such a great idea. I'm sure the link between Loftus and Asda would be well used. And no extra buses needed!

(18 Jan 2016, 8:56 am)Michael Euston wrote 5A direct to Brotton via North Skelton and the 5 via Asda is such a great idea. I'm sure the link between Loftus and Asda would be well used. And no extra buses needed!

Extra bus probably would be needed. 5 is currently 2hr 40 mins and a 5a is 2hr 10 mins so they interwork on a 5 hour cycle. Swapping the routes round would probably see the timetable have to be completely rewrote to either retain inter working or to make both standalone which would then cost more in resources. I would suggest any Loftus-Asda link be separate from the main 5/5a.

(18 Jan 2016, 9:42 am)Kuyoyo wrote Extra bus probably would be needed. 5 is currently 2hr 40 mins and a 5a is 2hr 10 mins so they interwork on a 5 hour cycle. Swapping the routes round would probably see the timetable have to be completely rewrote to either retain inter working or to make both standalone which would then cost more in resources. I would suggest any Loftus-Asda link be separate from the main 5/5a.

It wouldn't use any extra resources as the 5 would simply become 3 hours round, using 6 buses, and the 5A drop back to 2 hours using 4 buses so could be done within the current resource of 10 buses. The problem we have with it is it's very inefficient driver wise only using someone for 3 hours from a potential 5h30 piece... whereas the current circuit of doing both in 5 hours is very efficient use of driving time. The 21a suffers from this also.

(18 Jan 2016, 8:50 am)Michael Euston wrote
Is there any demand for a direct service between Guisborough and Saltburn? Other companies have tried it and then withdrew their services. Arriva used to do it once upon a time going through Upleatham [268?]. There are now 2 bus options either via Skelton or via Redcar.

Enough to sustain a bus that terminates at either end, like the Stagecarriage service - probably not.
Enough to add to existing passenger numbers, carried on an the extension of an existing service such as the X3A - possibly.

If the X3A is carrying decent numbers already, surely the extension would only add to those numbers?
The diversion around Skelton that I proposed, would cover the same roads (although in a different order) and would only miss out two stops served currently.

(18 Jan 2016, 8:50 am)Michael Euston wrote Is there any demand for a direct service between Guisborough and Saltburn? Other companies have tried it and then withdrew their services. Arriva used to do it once upon a time going through Upleatham [268?]. There are now 2 bus options either via Skelton or via Redcar.

I've been on a 71 with a standing load between Saltburn and Guisborough.

Surely we've had all this (and more) over the past years with many variations as to what is best to appease people and has any of it worked? Current operators can only provide what they see as required driven by resources and useage. Then there the practicalities of extending/moving services to take into account. In an ideal world everyone would get the services they want; I'd get a bus that would take me direct from Hartlepool to Darlington without having to resort to other forms of transport. Alas we ain't in an "ideal" world.

(18 Jan 2016, 1:30 pm)scania driver wrote Surely we've had all this (and more) over the past years with many variations as to what is best to appease people and has any of it worked? Current operators can only provide what they see as required driven by resources and useage. Then there the practicalities of extending/moving services to take into account. In an ideal world everyone would get the services they want; I'd get a bus that would take me direct from Hartlepool to Darlington without having to resort to other forms of transport. Alas we ain't in an "ideal" world.

I think the Darlo-Hartlepool link or lack of one, is all down to patches being carved up and territories being 'owned' by the relevant companies.
We have seen similar time and time again.

If we left things as they were, where would the X93 be?
There has to be an element of improvement and innovation - otherwise the industry dies.
Continuous improvement done properly, can lead to changes that benefit the passenger.

With the Metro hideously unreliable, is there a market for an express between Newcastle and Sunderland? 

Offer fares slightly cheaper than the Metro, as I don't think you'll be able to cover it on the roads anywhere near as quickly?

(18 Jan 2016, 2:22 pm)mb134 wrote With the Metro hideously unreliable, is there a market for an express between Newcastle and Sunderland? 

Offer fares slightly cheaper than the Metro, as I don't think you'll be able to cover it on the roads anywhere near as quickly?

I don't think so.

Go North East had an express service (X3) between Sunderland and Newcastle and there wasn't a great demand for it. After numerous service changes, it was ultimately withdrawn and replaced by the X36, which isn't particularly fast and is now curtailed at Market Street as opposed to Eldon Square.

New Service 51

Durham - Chester le Street - Birtley - Washington Galleries - A1231 and A19 - Boldon Cinema / Asda - Whiteleaa Bridge - South Tyneside Hospital - Westoe - South Shields - (Pier Head extension in summer)

Reinstates parts of old 551 and X50 and also gives Arriva chance to dip toes into South Shields waters.....literally 

Hourly frequencu

(09 Feb 2016, 4:59 pm)ifm001 wrote New Service 51

Durham - Chester le Street - Birtley - Washington Galleries - A1231 and A19 - Boldon Cinema / Asda - Whiteleaa Bridge - South Tyneside Hospital - Westoe - South Shields - (Pier Head extension in summer)

Reinstates parts of old 551 and X50 and also gives Arriva chance to dip toes into South Shields waters.....literally 

Hourly frequencu

I'm all for increasing competition to provide more choice for passengers and improve standards; but a bold move into a well served area by a new operator should a full forced network to attract customers with season passes. A single hourly route may be destined to fail.

(18 Jan 2016, 2:22 pm)mb134 wrote With the Metro hideously unreliable, is there a market for an express between Newcastle and Sunderland? 

Offer fares slightly cheaper than the Metro, as I don't think you'll be able to cover it on the roads anywhere near as quickly?

Unfortunately I think this idea has been done to death, both as a proposal and in reality. The biggest hurdle is always going to be speed and the poor public image the bus has versus the train. We all know what's possible in making a bus much more comfortable than a metro car, but I don't think Joe Public ever will.

The best intercity operation I know of that competes against the train is Trent Barton's 'Red Arrow'. I'd highly suggest giving it a go if you every get the chance!

Oh and if there's one company that's NOT going to try and prevoke a war with Metro its going to be Arrive! Vested interests and all that...

18 Darlington-newton Aycliffe -Sedgefield-ferryhill-durham.-arnison centre-brasside
21 Sunderland-peterlee-wingate-trimdon-sedgefield
This suggestion will see a new 18 introduced.
The 18 will replace the 7 framwellgate moor to Durham also the 18 will replace 21 Darlington to Sedgefield the 18 will replace the whole 33 route and also route 62.
The 18 route will be ran by 3 eco city's from Darlington 4812-14 and a pulsar from Belmont.
Belmont will run the 21 with pulsars.
Peak journey s for the 18 will be ran by lowlanders arnison centre to ferryhill.

(09 Feb 2016, 5:58 pm)biglugs@yahoo.com wrote 18 Darlington-newton Aycliffe -Sedgefield-ferryhill-durham.-arnison centre-brasside
21 Sunderland-peterlee-wingate-trimdon-sedgefield
This suggestion will see a new 18 introduced.
The 18 will replace the 7 framwellgate moor to Durham also the 18 will replace 21 Darlington to Sedgefield the 18 will replace the whole 33 route and also route 62.
The 18 route will be ran by 3 eco city's from Darlington 4812-14 and a pulsar from Belmont.
Belmont will run the 21 with pulsars.
Peak journey s for the 18 will be ran by lowlanders arnison centre to ferryhill.

Don't think the 18 would be a good idea, especially as it would be replacing two services which are currently supported by Durham County Council because they aren't financially viable without it, also a fair part of the route is covered by other services. If the 21A was to stay as it is now, the 21 times would not work as it would have to sit in Sedgefield for 33 minutes to match with the times of the 21A between Sedgefield and Peterlee. Also with the 21 suggestion having it ran by Belmont it would be the same as the 23 currently is and driver changes would have to occur in Sunderland.

Think the routes work fine as they are now and these suggestions would just be a mess and the 18 would possibly fail.

(09 Feb 2016, 5:26 pm)James101 wrote I'm all for increasing competition to provide more choice for passengers and improve standards; but a bold move into a well served area by a new operator should a full forced network to attract customers with season passes. A single hourly route may be destined to fail.

I still think Arriva are missing a trick with South Shields. 10 minutes out of the Tyne Tunnel and your in Shields town Centre. I suggested in the past a service from Morpeth and Cramlington through tunnel to Shields and then a quick return to Morpeth in service for passengers from Shields. With a both way return in the late afternoon.

That would work

(09 Feb 2016, 7:07 pm)ifm001 wrote I still think Arriva are missing a trick with South Shields. 10 minutes out of the Tyne Tunnel and your in Shields town Centre. I suggested in the past a service from Morpeth and Cramlington through tunnel to Shields and then a quick return to Morpeth in service for passengers from Shields. With a both way return in the late afternoon.

That would work

How many people in Morpeth have a burning need to travel into South Shields on a frequent basis?

(09 Feb 2016, 5:58 pm)biglugs@yahoo.com wrote 18 Darlington-newton Aycliffe -Sedgefield-ferryhill-durham.-arnison centre-brasside
21 Sunderland-peterlee-wingate-trimdon-sedgefield
This suggestion will see a new 18 introduced.
The 18 will replace the 7 framwellgate moor to Durham also the 18 will replace 21 Darlington to Sedgefield the 18 will replace the whole 33 route and also route 62.
The 18 route will be ran by 3 eco city's from Darlington 4812-14 and a pulsar from Belmont.
Belmont will run the 21 with pulsars.
Peak journey s for the 18 will be ran by lowlanders arnison centre to ferryhill.

Agree with Jimmi, here. The 7, 21 and 21a as they currently are aint broke and don't need fixing. I do miss having them coming our way, as they did several years ago, but Wingate needs them more and we're much better served by the 22 being twice hourly, now..

(09 Feb 2016, 7:49 pm)BusLoverMum wrote How many people in Morpeth have a burning need to travel into South Shields on a frequent basis?

Not a burning need.

Just merely a seasonal service once or twice a week.

Us folk of shields do have interesting things to see sometimes. And I'm not just talking about the buses

Wheatley Hill, Thornley and Shotton Colliery lost there links to Trimdom Sedgefield section.
Divert 21A Wingate A181 Thornley Crossways to Wheatley Hill front ST omitting Henderson Ave section to Shotton Colliery Terminate at the Peterlee bus station Opposite direction from Wingate normal route but terminate at Stockton Hight ST instead of Middlesbrough