The comparison was made with regard to them both being Middlesbrough to Whitby services.
I actually pointed out the differences between two in my post - with the X4/4 'going around the houses'.

The majority of those travelling between Boro and Whitby will use the X93.
However, apart from the odd location, like Guisbrough, it isn't going to pick up the additional custom en-route, to make a difference to its revenue.
You can even say the X93 has the 5 as competition between Boro and Guisbrough, so loads are diluted between those services.

With the X4 going around the doors, it has local and longer distance fares. Unlike the X93, it passes through enough settlements to pick up additional passengers.

This additional custom has lead (whenever I have used it or the X3) to standing loads.
Appreciate it won't be like that all the time and I don't profess to be a regular.

However, what you said about the year round custom on the X4, adds weight to my point about the X93.
It needs to increase revenue if it is ever going to see the investment in new vehicles.
How does it do that, without the journey time increasing in order to attract a larger market?

1461 has transferred back to darlington, it's currently being used as the hot bus

(16 Apr 2016, 2:26 pm)mb134 wrote Even if they were 'going cheap', they'd still cost quite a bit of money, you're never going to buy a brand new B9TL for the price of a Vauxhall Corsa. I think it needs to be accepted that Arriva, especially in this case, didn't do anything 'cheap'.

And the Temsas?

(18 Apr 2016, 11:42 am)Andreos1 wrote The comparison was made with regard to them both being Middlesbrough to Whitby services.
I actually pointed out the differences between two in my post - with the X4/4 'going around the houses'.

The majority of those travelling between Boro and Whitby will use the X93.
However, apart from the odd location, like Guisbrough, it isn't going to pick up the additional custom en-route, to make a difference to its revenue.
You can even say the X93 has the 5 as competition between Boro and Guisbrough, so loads are diluted between those services.

With the X4 going around the doors, it has local and longer distance fares. Unlike the X93, it passes through enough settlements to pick up additional passengers.

This additional custom has lead (whenever I have used it or the X3) to standing loads.
Appreciate it won't be like that all the time and I don't profess to be a regular.

However, what you said about the year round custom on the X4, adds weight to my point about the X93.
It needs to increase revenue if it is ever going to see the investment in new vehicles.
How does it do that, without the journey time increasing in order to attract a larger market?

I think you have cross purposes here.
The X4/4 received 14 new StreetLites in September 2014 which it shares with the X3/X3a. The X93 received 6 new stock-built Volvo B9TLs in January 2015 to work the 5 all-year round workings plus Whitby's Summer-only board which is 3 Whitby-Scarborough-Whitby trips.
In the summer, Redcar also operate 2 vehicles on the service which do the 2 additional morning trips from Middlesbrough, two shorts each between Whitby and Scarborough and the afternoon extras from Scarborough to Middlesbrough. To cover these they have the 3 B7TLs modified to mini-MAX spec. 

What is now being looked at is something more long-term as the summer vehicles.

(18 Apr 2016, 12:18 pm)Kuyoyo wrote I think you have cross purposes here.
The X4/4 received 14 new StreetLites in September 2014 which it shares with the X3/X3a. The X93 received 6 new stock-built Volvo B9TLs in January 2015 to work the 5 all-year round workings plus Whitby's Summer-only board which is 3 Whitby-Scarborough-Whitby trips.
In the summer, Redcar also operate 2 vehicles on the service which do the 2 additional morning trips from Middlesbrough, two shorts each between Whitby and Scarborough and the afternoon extras from Scarborough to Middlesbrough. To cover these they have the 3 B7TLs modified to mini-MAX spec. 

What is now being looked at is something more long-term as the summer vehicles.

Eh? I have cross purposes about what?

The subject was the X93 and the vehicles which use the route currently.
I have asked the question with regard to increasing revenue on the X93 and new vehicles.
I have compared the two Boro - Whitby services, mentioned population (with population density a major factor in bus route planning and success).

Not sure what cross purposes I have.

22 is diverting outbound via claypath.

Far too sensible!

(18 Apr 2016, 12:03 pm)Cock Robin wrote And the Temsas?

What about them?

(18 Apr 2016, 1:13 pm)BusLoverMum wrote 22 is diverting outbound via claypath.

Far too sensible!

Services 22/24 are both serving Claypath until around 8pm on the evening, at which point services 24/64 will be diverted from Millburngate Bridge via New Elvet, Houghall College, Sherburn House and back onto normal route at the Motorway Bridge.

It was expected that the 64 wouldn't be able to serve Claypath on the inbound journeys, but the council have now said that we can service Claypath both directions on service 64 only.

(18 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm)palatine3833 wrote Services 22/24 are both serving Claypath until around 8pm on the evening, at which point services 24/64 will be diverted from Millburngate Bridge via New Elvet, Houghall College, Sherburn House and back onto normal route at the Motorway Bridge.

It was expected that the 64 wouldn't be able to serve Claypath on the inbound journeys, but the council have now said that we can service Claypath both directions on service 64 only.

The gilesgate roundabout is completely closed overnight all week, isn't it? It's a huge diversion but there's no other way of doing it. Luckily the 22 is pretty much done for the night by 8pm.

(18 Apr 2016, 12:27 pm)Andreos1 wrote Eh? I have cross purposes about what?

The subject was the X93 and the vehicles which use the route currently.
I have asked the question with regard to increasing revenue on the X93 and new vehicles.
I have compared the two Boro - Whitby services, mentioned population (with population density a major factor in bus route planning and success).

Not sure what cross purposes I have.

That's what I was thinking!

(18 Apr 2016, 4:09 pm)Cock Robin wrote That's what I was thinking!

I'm thinking Kuyoyo is on the wrong (!) wavelength

(18 Apr 2016, 12:27 pm)Andreos1 wrote Eh? I have cross purposes about what?

The subject was the X93 and the vehicles which use the route currently.
I have asked the question with regard to increasing revenue on the X93 and new vehicles.
I have compared the two Boro - Whitby services, mentioned population (with population density a major factor in bus route planning and success).

Not sure what cross purposes I have.

(18 Apr 2016, 6:15 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm thinking Kuyoyo is on the wrong (!) wavelength

Here's where you are on the wrong wavelength
The X93 received new vehicles in Winter 2014/2015 for the all year round boards. So, why all this tall of more new vehicles? I gave reasons as to why they likely only bought enough to cover the all year PVR rather than buying enough to cover the summer PVR and why they are now looking at newer second-hand stock to work those summer-only Redcar workings in-place of 7485-7.
Maybe people need to start reading back throughout the last three or four pages before posting

(18 Apr 2016, 6:27 pm)Kuyoyo wrote Here's where you are on the wrong wavelength
The X93 received new vehicles in Winter 2014/2015 for the all year round boards. So, why all this tall of more new vehicles? I gave reasons as to why they likely only bought enough to cover the all year PVR rather than buying enough to cover the summer PVR and why they are now looking at newer second-hand stock to work those summer-only Redcar workings in-place of 7485-7.
Maybe people need to start reading back throughout the last three or four pages before posting

We all know about the vehicles. Without reading back three of four pages.
We all know about the summer and winter PVR.

Read the posts again (just the last two pages will do) and come back when you identify a point which was wrong or incorrect.

As a reminder: It was comment, discussion and questioning, comparing two Whitby - Boro services that discussed potential new vehicles, allocation of spares during the winter, revenue growth and population density

(18 Apr 2016, 6:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote We all know about the vehicles. Without reading back three of four pages.
We all know about the summer and winter PVR.

Read the posts again (just the last two pages will do) and come back when you identify a point which was wrong or incorrect.

As a reminder: It was comment, discussion and questioning, comparing two Whitby - Boro services that discussed potential new vehicles, allocation of spares during the winter, revenue growth and population density

No, you go and read the WHOLE discussion from last Wednesday onwards, when everything you have tried to sum up while trying to compare 2 services that, while they link 2 places via different routes, have completely different demographic of usage amongst other things.

Your comparing is also incorrect - there's very little Whitby-Boro traffic on the 4/X4 (and the opposite way around) as the X93 is far quicker between the two points and runs until later from each end (last X4/4 from Boro is 1835, last X93 is 2020 - from Whitby, the last full 4/X4 leaves at 1802, last X93 is 1903 (winter) or 1933 (summer)). The X4/4 traffic is more in-between points. The comparsion of the 5 and X93 between Middlesbrough and Guisborough is also slightly incorrect - the X93 stops at 3 stops between Middlesbrough Bus Station and Guisborough Market Place, all of which are also served by the 5/5a so the X93 is rarely used for local journeys, depending on other factors

(18 Apr 2016, 7:16 pm)Kuyoyo wrote No, you go and read the WHOLE discussion from last Wednesday onwards, when everything you have tried to sum up while trying to compare 2 services that, while they link 2 places via different routes, have completely different demographic of usage amongst other things.

Your comparing is also incorrect - there's very little Whitby-Boro traffic on the 4/X4 (and the opposite way around) as the X93 is far quicker between the two points and runs until later from each end (last X4/4 from Boro is 1835, last X93 is 2020 - from Whitby, the last full 4/X4 leaves at 1802, last X93 is 1903 (winter) or 1933 (summer)). The X4/4 traffic is more in-between points. The comparsion of the 5 and X93 between Middlesbrough and Guisborough is also slightly incorrect - the X93 stops at 3 stops between Middlesbrough Bus Station and Guisborough Market Place, all of which are also served by the 5/5a so the X93 is rarely used for local journeys, depending on other factors

Ffs man.
The irony is fantastic.

Do you want me to point out where I said the majority will use the X93 for the direct route and the X4/4 would pick up local passengers?

Or how the X93 doesn't have the opportunity to pick additional passengers apart from places like Guisbrough?

(18 Apr 2016, 7:25 pm)Andreos1 wrote Ffs man.
The irony is fantastic.

Do you want me to point out where I said the majority will use the X93 for the direct route and the X4/4 would pick up local passengers?

Or how the X93 doesn't have the opportunity to pick additional passengers apart from places like Guisbrough?

All I'll say now is this - this ends now.

The discussion has been about sorting vehicles out for the summer-only X93 boards - not how to justify buying new vehicles for those workings that only operate for about 7-8 months of the year (depending on when Easter falls). The answer is simple, they aren't going to. The X18 has an extra board in the summer as well but do we see a discussion about buying an extra pair of E400s to cover that board plus a spare - I don't think so.

(18 Apr 2016, 7:25 pm)Andreos1 wrote Ffs man.
The irony is fantastic.

Do you want me to point out where I said the majority will use the X93 for the direct route and the X4/4 would pick up local passengers?

Or how the X93 doesn't have the opportunity to pick additional passengers apart from places like Guisbrough?

As an East Cleveland resident can I put my point of view. Would the Streetlites cover the Whitby to Scarborough route OK? Why not extend the X4/4 to run to Scarborough once an hour in the summer months? Quite a number of people from Redcar onwards would board the X4 and then change in Whitby to go to Scarborough. That would take the pressure off in Whitby.

(18 Apr 2016, 7:36 pm)Michael Euston wrote As an East Cleveland resident can I put my point of view. Would the Streetlites cover the Whitby to Scarborough route OK? Why not extend the X4/4 to run to Scarborough once an hour in the summer months? Quite a number of people from Redcar onwards would board the X4 and then change in Whitby to go to Scarborough. That would take the pressure off in Whitby.

I can see some point in an X4 extension but new buses would need to come, possibly London cascades coming to Jesmond freeing up some Pulsars for Redcar

(18 Apr 2016, 7:36 pm)Michael Euston wrote As an East Cleveland resident can I put my point of view. Would the Streetlites cover the Whitby to Scarborough route OK? Why not extend the X4/4 to run to Scarborough once an hour in the summer months? Quite a number of people from Redcar onwards would board the X4 and then change in Whitby to go to Scarborough. That would take the pressure off in Whitby.

Streetlites have done the X93 in the past but how they handle the route is unknown. However, to extend the service to Scarborough, you would need as a minimum 2 extra vehicles added into the PVR and you would have to work out a way to do Whitby-Scarborough in an hour. And a way to not go over the driving hours for the Redcar drivers.

(18 Apr 2016, 7:40 pm)NK53 TKT wrote I can see some point in an X4 extension but new buses would need to come, possibly London cascades coming to Jesmond freeing up some Pulsars for Redcar

How about running X4 down to Scarborough on Saturdays/Sundays and Bank Holidays, during the same summer period as the X93? (creating a 'summer' extension timetable for the X4).

Redcar PVR is lower on a Saturday as it is to fund it (Redcar have two spare Sapphires), plus plenty of spare resources on Sunday & Bank Holidays to use.

Rumours of a higher 'Summer' Sunday & Bank Holiday frequency on the X4 anyway as part of the July changes. I'm also told with some more definite certainty the route will be renumbered to X4 all the way through from mid-July.

(18 Apr 2016, 7:43 pm)Kuyoyo wrote Streetlites have done the X93 in the past but how they handle the route is unknown. However, to extend the service to Scarborough, you would need an extra 2 vehicles added into the PVR and you would have to work out a way to do Whitby-Scarborough in an hour.

Maybe as an express Whitby-Scarborough down the A171, it would take 40 ish minutes allowing for layover in Scarborough with the extra P.V.R being formed by for example 1499 and 1500 from Jesmond being converted as Sapphire spares for Redcar.
EDIT:Only one Jesmond bus would actually needed if 1440 formed part of the PVR

Oh dear... On Arriva's Facebook page.

Service Update:Unfortunately we are again experiencing problems on Birchington Ave in Grangetown with missiles being thrown at bus windows. Therefore service 64A will not serve Grangetown between Birchington Road/Fabian Road roundabout and Magnet roundabout.This will be for the remainder of this evening and will be reviewed tomorrow.We apologise for this inconvenience.

(18 Apr 2016, 8:23 pm)Jimmi wrote Oh dear... On Arriva's Facebook page.

Service Update:Unfortunately we are again experiencing problems on Birchington Ave in Grangetown with missiles being thrown at bus windows. Therefore service 64A will not serve Grangetown between Birchington Road/Fabian Road roundabout and Magnet roundabout.This will be for the remainder of this evening and will be reviewed tomorrow.We apologise for this inconvenience.

It'll probably get worse with the milder and longer evenings. Eejits.

Arriva aren't the only operator to have suffered problems tonight. Go North East have had three buses incur damage on Old Durham Road this evening, due to a clan of young people throwing rocks at buses.

I honestly cannot understand the appeal of throwing rocks and suchlike at buses. Not only does it result in buses having to be kept off the road (with passengers suffering as a result - the likes of free Wi-Fi might not be available), but it could also result in the people on-board being hurt.

(18 Apr 2016, 8:32 pm)Dan wrote Arriva aren't the only operator to have suffered problems tonight. Go North East have had three buses incur damage on Old Durham Road this evening, due to a clan of young people throwing rocks at buses.

I honestly cannot understand the appeal of throwing rocks and suchlike at buses. Not only does it result in buses having to be kept off the road (with passengers suffering as a result - the likes of free Wi-Fi might not be available), but it could also result in the people on-board being hurt.

We need a good blizzard.

(18 Apr 2016, 8:32 pm)Dan wrote Arriva aren't the only operator to have suffered problems tonight. Go North East have had three buses incur damage on Old Durham Road this evening, due to a clan of young people throwing rocks at buses.

I honestly cannot understand the appeal of throwing rocks and suchlike at buses.

I have no idea, it's the same with things like people who keep smashing public toilets up, the one's in Bishop Auckland Bus Station have been closed for a fair few months now and it looks as though they won't be repaired this time. Wonder what the chances are that Arriva would pull this service completely on an evening in this area?

(18 Apr 2016, 8:40 pm)Jimmi wrote I have no idea, it's the same with things like people who keep smashing public toilets up, the one's in Bishop Auckland Bus Station have been closed for a fair few months now and it looks as though they won't be repaired this time. Wonder what the chances are that Arriva would pull this service completely on an evening in this area?

I wouldn't at all be surprised if they don't look to shorten it back during the next Teesside changes (usually takes place the first Sunday of the Six Week Holidays in July) to Whale Hill Shops or even to Eston Square.

Also could cause the bus to crash and injure the driver as well as passengers, these mindless yobs don't think about the consequences, they think it's all a laugh and a joke.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk

(18 Apr 2016, 7:32 pm)Kuyoyo wrote All I'll say now is this - this ends now.

The discussion has been about sorting vehicles out for the summer-only X93 boards - not how to justify buying new vehicles for those workings that only operate for about 7-8 months of the year (depending on when Easter falls). The answer is simple, they aren't going to. The X18 has an extra board in the summer as well but do we see a discussion about buying an extra pair of E400s to cover that board plus a spare - I don't think so.

But conversation can develop.
Just because a topic hasn't been covered before, it doesn't mean it can't progress or change.

Heck, we might end up discussing the X18 next week.

It is accepted that the X93 has lower loads in the winter.
Revenue (and whatever formula is being used), dictate that it doesn't need the same capacity or frequency as the summer.
The points I made about population density apply throughout the year.

The rest of the discussion is just hypothetical. Just like many other parts of the forum.
If's, buts and maybes.
Whether it is people in the pub, people chatting at the match or people on the forum - it happens.

(18 Apr 2016, 7:36 pm)Michael Euston wrote As an East Cleveland resident can I put my point of view. Would the Streetlites cover the Whitby to Scarborough route OK? Why not extend the X4/4 to run to Scarborough once an hour in the summer months? Quite a number of people from Redcar onwards would board the X4 and then change in Whitby to go to Scarborough. That would take the pressure off in Whitby.

If the timetable and drivers hours regs allow it, then it might be worth giving it a go.
It would be interesting to see how the Streetlites cope.

Didn't that just set up a debate with regard to the X93 ? All I was suggesting was bringing in 3 decent deckers that can cope with the demands of the route. Maybe 7416 is a success and it should be possible to get 1808 back on the road shouldn't it ?