(09 Aug 2016, 5:32 pm)Adrian wrote Also : https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-ballot-o...to-strike/

Looks like another example of a private company bidding over the odds for public sector work, and immediately struggling to 'deliver' to their shareholders.

I wonder what the Virgin Group think about Stagecoach dragging their name through the mud with this dispute? They only own 10% of the franchise, yet will be on the end of 100% of the blame.

GNER, NX and now VTEC have all reportedly struggled (or are struggling) on the route and have demonstrated cutting back in several key areas, such as call-centre staff, rewards programmes, complain about open access operators and bids etc. We now see VTEC wanting to cut back on front line staff.
Yet EC somehow managed to operate, make a healthy profit and hit performance targets...

It's like a poisoned chalice to the private sector.

(11 Aug 2016, 1:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote GNER, NX and now VTEC have all reportedly struggled (or are struggling) on the route and have demonstrated cutting back in several key areas, such as call-centre staff, rewards programmes, complain about open access operators and bids etc. We now see VTEC wanting to cut back on front line staff.
Yet EC somehow managed to operate, make a healthy profit and hit performance targets...

It's like a poisoned chalice to the private sector.

It really does make you wonder what is going on. I've regularly seen trains operating in shorter formation (missing one coach) with coach defects and the aircon seems to be playing up more and more frequently. Have a look at the website now:

10:00 Kings Cross - Aberdeen is missing coach E
15:00 Kings Cross - Stirling is 8 coaches rather than 9
16:06 Kings Cross - Leeds has had reservations shifted because of faulty aircon.

Perhaps it's anticipation of the Azumas - who knows...

(11 Aug 2016, 3:34 pm)8222 wrote It really does make you wonder what is going on. I've regularly seen trains operating in shorter formation (missing one coach) with coach defects and the aircon seems to be playing up more and more frequently. Have a look at the website now:

10:00 Kings Cross - Aberdeen is missing coach E
15:00 Kings Cross - Stirling is 8 coaches rather than 9
16:06 Kings Cross - Leeds has had reservations shifted because of faulty aircon.

Perhaps it's anticipation of the Azumas - who knows...

Don't get me started with the air-con. Happened too many times recently.

(11 Aug 2016, 1:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote GNER, NX and now VTEC have all reportedly struggled (or are struggling) on the route and have demonstrated cutting back in several key areas, such as call-centre staff, rewards programmes, complain about open access operators and bids etc. We now see VTEC wanting to cut back on front line staff.
Yet EC somehow managed to operate, make a healthy profit and hit performance targets...

It's like a poisoned chalice to the private sector.

Even though part of the franchise for the current private bidder was to introduce brand new rolling stock in vast amounts? That can't have helped financial matters much...!!!

(11 Aug 2016, 6:15 pm)northern156 wrote Even though part of the franchise for the current private bidder was to introduce brand new rolling stock in vast amounts? That can't have helped financial matters much...!!!

Even the most savvy financial director will have financed that in to any contract/bid...

Forecasts will have been planned both on income and expenditure, in addition to passenger numbers way back when they went for the contract - regardless of any new rolling stock.

New rolling stock, will (or should have), been factored in to that bid. It hasn't just sneaked up on them.

(11 Aug 2016, 6:49 pm)Andreos1 wrote Even the most savvy financial director will have financed that in to any contract/bid...

Forecasts will have been planned both on income and expenditure, in addition to passenger numbers way back when they went for the contract - regardless of any new rolling stock.

New rolling stock, will (or should have), been factored in to that bid. It hasn't just sneaked up on them.

The fact they're losing money hand over fist (at a figure of about £1m per month that I heard!) and it being announced after the big unveiling of the new Azumas seems too much of a coincidence to me Andreos?

Call me cynical like...

(11 Aug 2016, 6:56 pm)northern156 wrote The fact they're losing money hand over fist (at a figure of about £1m per month that I heard!) and it being announced after the big unveiling of the new Azumas seems too much of a coincidence to me Andreos?

Call me cynical like...

Not sure what you mean about it being a coincidence?

It has been well documented they're struggling. I put a link on regarding the financial status of the ops on here a few months back (the articles were published almost a week before the Azuma launch).
Hence, why I mentioned the other toc's and compared them to EC, who didn't make a loss - but had the same or similar overheads as their predecessors and successor.
EC even had a lower Government subsidy per km, than VTEC.
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file...014-15.pdf

There could be all sorts of reasons as to why they're running at a loss, running short sets, having issues with air-con, running out of food in first and are now investigating making circa 200 hundred redundancies.
Not sure it has anything to do with the new sets though.

My point regarding it being a coincidence was that I heard about this loss of money after the units had been ordered.
This may well have simply been me not hearing anything other stories about it previously mind.

Short-formed sets are a fact of the railway, it's nothing to do with how well off a company is. You're talking about HSTs and Mk4 sets which have been in service several decades now - they're bound to develop issues with the likes of maintenance! I'd rather cut a coach out than cancel a full set!

IMO, if ECML had remained under government ownership there would have been a lot less growth and improvements to service than present - ie huge refurb of rolling stock, free Wifi for advance ticket holders, advertising campaigns etc etc. - the sort of stuff Virgin excel at.

(11 Aug 2016, 7:14 pm)northern156 wrote My point regarding it being a coincidence was that I heard about this loss of money after the units had been ordered.
This may well have simply been me not hearing anything other stories about it previously mind.

Short-formed sets are a fact of the railway, it's nothing to do with how well off a company is. You're talking about HSTs and Mk4 sets which have been in service several decades now - they're bound to develop issues with the likes of maintenance! I'd rather cut a coach out than cancel a full set!

IMO, if ECML had remained under government ownership there would have been a lot less growth and improvements to service than present - ie huge refurb of rolling stock, free Wifi for advance ticket holders, advertising campaigns etc etc. - the sort of stuff Virgin excel at.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/marke...g-5-4.html
Published 14th March. Relating to events on 13th according to article.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/ne...ouncement/
Published 18th March. Relating to events on 18th March.

It is worth noting that in the weeks following the financial reports, both TSSA and RMT were predicting job losses
http://www.transport-network.co.uk/East-...tion/12837

Who knows what would have happened to the stock on the ECML. We can surmise and guess. The new stock was always going to happen though (we know it had been announced/planned prior to the handover).
What we do know, is that they're paying almost twice the contract value GNER and NX did.

Edit: Details Virgin Rail (Stagecoach) annual reports
http://www.stagecoach.com/~/media/Files/...016-v2.pdf

Joint ventures – share of (loss)/profit after tax
                            2016   2015
                             £m      £m
Virgin Rail Group    24.2    22.3
Citylink                    1.4     1.1
Twin America         (0.8)    2.0

I can't find any specific VTEC financials in the report, but according to the report, VTEC has seen growth of 1.7% (VTWC - 2.6%. It had been 10.2% the year previous) in passenger miles.
They do say that business revenue grew by 5.2% - but they are yet to see a significant growth in revenue as a result of specific initiatives.
There are comments relating to onerous contracts

The profit of Virgin Trains East Coast has been less than that forecast by the Group at the time of its bid for the franchise. As a result, management has carried out an onerous contract review of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise and concluded that the contract will earn a profit for the remaining term of its franchise.

(11 Aug 2016, 7:27 pm)Andreos1 wrote http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/marke...g-5-4.html
Published 14th March. Relating to events on 13th according to article.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/ne...ouncement/
Published 18th March. Relating to events on 18th March.

It is worth noting that in the weeks following the financial reports, both TSSA and RMT were predicting job losses
http://www.transport-network.co.uk/East-...tion/12837

Who knows what would have happened to the stock on the ECML. We can surmise and guess. The new stock was always going to happen though (we know it had been announced/planned prior to the handover).
What we do know, is that they're paying almost twice the contract value GNER and NX did.

It was reported by Enthusiast's on the WCML at the Time of the Pendolinos entering service that Virgin ran the 86/87 and 90s + MK2/3s into the ground deliberately to get the Pendolino's more publicity, Really wouldn't be surprised if there doing a similar move here too, Considering all the fake/changed press articles released by them around the launch of the " Azuma's "

(11 Aug 2016, 7:56 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote It was reported by Enthusiast's on the WCML at the Time of the Pendolinos entering service that Virgin ran the 86/87 and 90s + MK2/3s into the ground deliberately to get the Pendolino's more publicity, Really wouldn't be surprised if there doing a similar move here too, Considering all the fake/changed press articles released by them around the launch of the " Azuma's "

I'd never heard that rumour about stock on the WCML.

They're not getting rid of all the stock on the ECML though. Pretty sure they're keeping all of the Class 91's - regardless of the internal refurbishment programme that is ongoing at the moment on both classes.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:11 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'd never heard that rumour about stock on the WCML.

They're not getting rid of all the stock on the ECML though. Pretty sure they're keeping all of the Class 91's - regardless of the internal refurbishment programme that is ongoing at the moment on both classes.

Its on RailUkForums somewhere.

Not keeping all, Just a few I believe. Unless plans have changed.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:30 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote Its on RailUkForums somewhere.

Not keeping all, Just a few I believe. Unless plans have changed.

Last I heard, was that they were all staying. No idea how accurate that is.
Have you heard where the 91's are supposed to be going (if VTEC aren't keeping them)?

There are 65 Class 800/801's being built for use on the ECML (23 that are dual-mode with 10 that are five-car sets)
According to wiki, there are 16 Class 43 sets and 31 Class 91's allocated to VTEC currently.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:40 pm)Andreos1 wrote Last I heard, was that they were all staying. No idea how accurate that is.
Have you heard where the 91's are supposed to be going (if VTEC aren't keeping them)?

There are 65 Class 800/801's being built for use on the ECML (23 that are dual-mode with 10 that are five-car sets)
According to wiki, there are 16 Class 43 sets and 31 Class 91's allocated to VTEC currently.

The ones that aren't staying are meant to be returned to the lessor I believe, There was also speculation of the displaced ones going onto the GEML Services to Norwich, Replacing the Class 90s and MK3s.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:54 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote The ones that aren't staying are meant to be returned to the lessor I believe, There was also speculation of the displaced ones going onto the GEML Services to Norwich, Replacing the Class 90s and MK3s.

But aren't Arbellio buying FLIRT units for the GEML?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passe...chise.html

(11 Aug 2016, 8:54 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote The ones that aren't staying are meant to be returned to the lessor I believe, There was also speculation of the displaced ones going onto the GEML Services to Norwich, Replacing the Class 90s and MK3s.

Whilst operating on a slower line, is probably better than seeing them rot somewhere, I can't help feeling they would be wasted on the GEML.

(11 Aug 2016, 9:09 pm)8222 wrote But aren't Arbellio buying FLIRT units for the GEML?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passe...chise.html

Which then results in more stock becoming surplus...

Ironic the older, diesel powered 43's are living on. Whilst the younger electric powered loco's have an uncertain future.

50% off seat sale announced the same day as RMT announce 3 24hr strikes.

Coincidence or not?

(12 Aug 2016, 11:35 am)Andreos1 wrote 50% off seat sale announced the same day as RMT announce 3 24hr strikes.

Coincidence or not?

No. I've known about the seat sale for a few days after reading about it on the Nectar app.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:30 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote Its on RailUkForums somewhere.

Not keeping all, Just a few I believe. Unless plans have changed.

Probably tripe then. Don't believe anything you hear platform end or that you've seen on the internet unless from an official source!

You can't "run locos into the ground". They may fail more when you don't carry out planned preventative maintenance but to not do that for the sake of making your new stock look better is absolute madness. Why you would ruin your business and put off customers for the sake of that is stupid too.

(11 Aug 2016, 8:54 pm)South Tyne Lad wrote The ones that aren't staying are meant to be returned to the lessor I believe, There was also speculation of the displaced ones going onto the GEML Services to Norwich, Replacing the Class 90s and MK3s.

I reckon the same as the 86s and 87s, Bulgaria

(12 Aug 2016, 7:59 pm)NK53 TKT wrote I reckon the same as the 86s and 87s, Bulgaria

Earmarked for MML once it gets electrified with a few staying on ECML alongside 800/1s but with 5 Mk4s behind to keep up with performance.

(11 Aug 2016, 6:49 pm)Andreos1 wrote Even the most savvy financial director will have financed that in to any contract/bid...

Forecasts will have been planned both on income and expenditure, in addition to passenger numbers way back when they went for the contract - regardless of any new rolling stock.

New rolling stock, will (or should have), been factored in to that bid. It hasn't just sneaked up on them.

Aye. They know exactly what they're bidding for, as it's all in the tender documentation and then again in the contract they sign. The problem is that a lot of companies, as they're competing to be the most economically advantageous (or cheapest!), will pitch at a loss. They will instead forecast to make a profit through incentives offered in the contract. 

I've absolutely no sympathy for them.

(13 Aug 2016, 3:24 pm)Adrian wrote Aye. They know exactly what they're bidding for, as it's all in the tender documentation and then again in the contract they sign. The problem is that a lot of companies, as they're competing to be the most economically advantageous (or cheapest!), will pitch at a loss. They will instead forecast to make a profit through incentives offered in the contract. 

I've absolutely no sympathy for them.

I have had sight of internal documents (for the attention of VTEC staff) in relation to the strike.

Very interesting reading!

(15 Aug 2016, 6:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote I have had sight of internal documents (for the attention of VTEC staff) in relation to the strike.

Very interesting reading!

Oh good god, in what respect? I really hope this all gets sorted out. As for the time being, it looks like my commutes will be happening on Grand Central just in case.

(16 Aug 2016, 8:43 am)8222 wrote Oh good god, in what respect? I really hope this all gets sorted out. As for the time being, it looks like my commutes will be happening on Grand Central just in case.

I have stuff booked and will be using other toc's for the time being. Not using VTEC during the dispute.

The documents are aimed at staff and are communicating 'facts' to them in the run up to the strike and the options that are available to them going forward.

I think this will all be very much harming Sir Richard's Virgin brand even though he has a 10% hold of VTEC. I really do think it will destroy the franchise is many strikes go ahead. Time will only tell what will happen. I'm just hoping that it gets solved soon. It was quite interesting chatting with a first class host the other day. She was saying she isn't striking, and wouldn't even if she wanted to, because ultimately it's money she can't afford to lose.

Strike suspended according to reports

(16 Aug 2016, 4:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote Strike suspended according to reports

Yup...tweet from VTEC

#VTECUpdate Planned industrial action by RMT members (19 & 26-29 Aug) has been suspended. Services will run normally as was always intended

Thought you could escape them when they vanished off our buses?

Think again...
https://twitter.com/DavidKeech5/status/7...1818691584

(22 Aug 2016, 3:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote Thought you could escape them when they vanished off our buses?

Think again...
https://twitter.com/DavidKeech5/status/7...1818691584

Are they going to tell you "please don't use the toilet when the train is in the station"

(22 Aug 2016, 3:40 pm)Jimmi wrote Are they going to tell you "please don't use the toilet when the train is in the station"

'Please remain seated whilst the train is moving'