My god, that is some serious contrition, particularly in Kenton Bar and Montagu Estate. The removal of service 1 from Four Land Ends is puzzling. I've submitted my feedback. I can't see what the re-routing of 63 away from Fenham is trying to achieve and the 'replacement' with 71, 72 and 87 makes getting to the city centre a much longer journey. The 63 (with its 61 and 64 forebears) has run via Fenham Hall Drive for as long as I can remember. I don't think they have thought that one through.

They are cutting the Newcastle services more than Sunderland it seems!

18 getting removed from Wallsend doesn't surprise me though, everyone seems to get on the Q3 now. And they should be making changes to the 22 as that service is a joke, should swap the 12 and 22 around so they aren't running in 2s as much (i.e have the 12 going to Cobalt instead of the 22) and have a longer layover.

(09 Feb 2017, 4:14 pm)Tom wrote They are cutting the Newcastle services more than Sunderland it seems!

18 getting removed from Wallsend doesn't surprise me though, everyone seems to get on the Q3 now. And they should be making changes to the 22 as that service is a joke, should swap the 12 and 22 around so they aren't running in 2s as much (i.e have the 12 going to Cobalt instead of the 22) and have a longer layover.

It seems the rumours were true last year that Newcastle facing cuts would follow after Sunderland!


I've heard that the service which Arriva put into Cobalt late last year is to be removed from Cobalt again in their next set of service changes.

It seems Arriva and Stagecoach both underestimate the volume of traffic in the Cobalt area and their timetables don't allow a great deal of recovery time.

(09 Feb 2017, 4:36 pm)Dan wrote It seems the rumours were true last year that Newcastle facing cuts would follow after Sunderland!


I've heard that the service which Arriva put into Cobalt late last year is to be removed from Cobalt again in their next set of service changes.

It seems Arriva and Stagecoach both underestimate the volume of traffic in the Cobalt area and their timetables don't allow a great deal of recovery time.

The X6 getting withdrawn does not surprise me at all - never normally more than 5 or 6 people on when I see it!

(09 Feb 2017, 4:55 pm)Tom wrote The X6 getting withdrawn does not surprise me at all - never normally more than 5 or 6 people on when I see it!

I think he's referring to the 54 which was re-routed to serve Cobalt.

(09 Feb 2017, 5:07 pm)peter wrote I think he's referring to the 54 which was re-routed to serve Cobalt.

Ah right - wasn't even aware it served Cobalt.

(09 Feb 2017, 4:14 pm)Tom wrote They are cutting the Newcastle services more than Sunderland it seems!

18 getting removed from Wallsend doesn't surprise me though, everyone seems to get on the Q3 now. And they should be making changes to the 22 as that service is a joke, should swap the 12 and 22 around so they aren't running in 2s as much (i.e have the 12 going to Cobalt instead of the 22) and have a longer layover.

Interesting, the 12, 22, 30, 31, 36, 38 and X63 aren't mentioned at all. Stagecoach are in partnership with Cobalt with the 22 extension so it doesn't surprise me that it isn't touched. The major cut is with the 15 given they propose completely withdrawing it between the City Centre and North Kenton. Just realised the 32/32A will only operate between City Centre and North Kenton which means the entire North Kenton to City Centre via Fawdon, South Gosforth, Benton, Four Lane Ends, High Heaton, Heaton and Byker sction is withdrawn!

Although the 39 and 40 will now each be every 12 minutes, I suspect the PVR won't change as they've mentioned timetabling changes which I interpret as increased running time. Like I say, one or two of the proposals make no sense. We shall see if any changes are made following feedback

Newcastle is one place i didn't expect to get loads of cuts! =0

Interesting the relatively well-established 18 has given way to the Q3 so quickly. Good score for GNE there.

Had a proper look through the changes and i don't really know Newcastle so that's why i'm not giving feedback.


Is there any positive proposed changes?

No is the short answer to that one. Not a single change could be deemed as positive. The peripheral routes are having a sythe taken to them and the truck routes are seeing reductions or nonsensical route changes. M

(09 Feb 2017, 8:10 pm)Michael wrote Had a proper look through the changes and i don't really know Newcastle so that's why i'm not giving feedback.


Is there any positive proposed changes?

These changes when you look closely are actually incredible in terms of the scale of the cuts. Here is my very rough calculation of PVRs before and after the changes. To describe this as a major cull would be an understatement.

Service 1: 15 to 14
Service 6/7/8: 9 to 8 (despite the extension)
Service 15: 4 to 2
Service 18: 4 to 3
Service 32: 7 to 4
Service 39/40: 11 to 10
Service 62/63: No change or possibly minus 1
Service 71: 3 to 3 (n/c)
Service 72: 2 to 1
Service 87: 1 to 1 (n/c)
Service 88: 1 to 0
Service 100: 4 to 3
Service X47: 5 to 3
Service X82: 3 to 2

So looks like at the very least, minus 15 PVR - making Sunderland's recent cuts seem like a drop in the ocean.

Some of the above make sense - for example the 1 between Coach Lane and FLE is not well used, and the eastern section of the 32 tends to be less well used than the western section. Nevertheless, regulars on the X47/X82 and 71/72/87/88 will notice the difference. Quite staggering that Benton Park Road between South Gosforth and FLE (past DWP Benton Park View) will be unserved by any Stagecoach service. At one time in the early 1990s this section had 2bph on the 7, 2bph on the 16 and 6bph on the 38. 

If Stagecoach are determined to make such a radical cull, I would suggest that putting it out to public consultation will have very little effect on the eventual outcome.

(09 Feb 2017, 8:50 pm)markydh wrote No is the short answer to that one. Not a single change could be deemed as positive. The peripheral routes are having a sythe taken to them and the truck routes are seeing reductions or nonsensical route changes. M

, not good then.

Hopefully they all don't go ahead but that seems unlikely because all of the Sunderland ones went ahead.

(09 Feb 2017, 8:57 pm)HarryCowans4041 wrote These changes when you look closely are actually incredible in terms of the scale of the cuts. Here is my very rough calculation of PVRs before and after the changes. To describe this as a major cull would be an understatement.

Service 1: 15 to 14
Service 6/7/8: 9 to 8 (despite the extension)
Service 15: 4 to 2
Service 18: 4 to 3
Service 32: 7 to 4
Service 39/40: 11 to 10
Service 62/63: No change or possibly minus 1
Service 71: 3 to 3 (n/c)
Service 72: 2 to 1
Service 87: 1 to 1 (n/c)
Service 88: 1 to 0
Service 100: 4 to 3
Service X47: 5 to 3
Service X82: 3 to 2

So looks like at the very least, minus 15 PVR - making Sunderland's recent cuts seem like a drop in the ocean.

Some of the above make sense - for example the 1 between Coach Lane and FLE is not well used, and the eastern section of the 32 tends to be less well used than the western section. Nevertheless, regulars on the X47/X82 and 71/72/87/88 will notice the difference. Quite staggering that Benton Park Road between South Gosforth and FLE (past DWP Benton Park View) will be unserved by any Stagecoach service. At one time in the early 1990s this section had 2bph on the 7, 2bph on the 16 and 6bph on the 38. 

If Stagecoach are determined to make such a radical cull, I would suggest that putting it out to public consultation will have very little effect on the eventual outcome.

I can't remember the depot allocation for these routes off the top of my head.
What is the depot split like? Is one losing more than the other?

(09 Feb 2017, 9:09 pm)Andreos1 wrote I can't remember the depot allocation for these routes off the top of my head.
What is the depot split like? Is one losing more than the other?

I don't have the exact figures either but my rough calculation based on my earlier figures are Slatyford minus 10 and Walkergate minus 5.

(09 Feb 2017, 9:09 pm)Andreos1 wrote I can't remember the depot allocation for these routes off the top of my head.
What is the depot split like? Is one losing more than the other?

1/15/15A/18/39/40 are solely operated by Walkergate
6/7/8/32/32A/35/71/72/87/88/100/X47/X82/X87/X88 are solely operated by Slatyford.
62/63 are jointly operated by both depots with Walkergate having 7 workings and Slatyford the remaining 14.

Guessing South Shields will be next in pipeline where there has been no real major changes to local service since the late 80s.

(09 Feb 2017, 9:48 pm)ifm001 wrote Guessing South Shields will be next in pipeline where there has been no real major changes to local service since the late 80s.

I can't really see what they could do to change the South Shields network.

I reckon the Teesside / Hartlepool area will be next in the firing line. Seems to be a current trend across the Stagecoach network nationwide though

(09 Feb 2017, 10:19 pm)Ds1197 wrote I can't really see what they could do to change the South Shields network.

People were saying that about the Newcastle network 

(09 Feb 2017, 10:19 pm)Ds1197 wrote I can't really see what they could do to change the South Shields network.

I wouldn't be surprised if the recent changes to the 10/11 become permanent with Hill Park and Low Simonside only getting an hourly service

(09 Feb 2017, 10:26 pm)Mark1 wrote I wouldn't be surprised if the recent changes to the 10/11 become permanent with Hill Park and Low Simonside only getting an hourly service

The 17/18 might go down to every 12 or every 15 minutes

(09 Feb 2017, 10:19 pm)Ds1197 wrote I can't really see what they could do to change the South Shields network.

Most local services operate a 10 min frequency. That could easily change to 12 min frequency. T

The changes aren't a huge surprise. Newcastle has a fairly untouched and unchanged stale network in Stagecoach terms.

It's never really had a full change since the Busways takeover. A few cosmetic snips here and there.

The likes of the 22 and X63 being left alone probably says more for commercial partnership with Cobalt and Quorum more than anything.

The huge issue is the traffic around Newcastle that barring huge investment in infrastructure you aren't going to solve, Newcastle is a growing big city and it's beginning to show as commuters move out towards subabrbs to live and work in but still commute through the city centre. Sunderland just doesn't compare

(09 Feb 2017, 8:59 pm)Michael wrote , not good then.

Hopefully they all don't go ahead but that seems unlikely because all of the Sunderland ones went ahead.

The one proposal that may get binned is the plan to reroute the 63 via Cowgate. The wording in the consultation suggests even Stagecoach aren't totally sure about that one. We'll see. I've already spoken to a couple of councillors who are flabbergasted. Buses Bill can't come soon enough!

(09 Feb 2017, 11:49 pm)markydh wrote The one proposal that may get binned is the plan to reroute the 63 via Cowgate. The wording in the consultation suggests even Stagecoach aren't totally sure about that one. We'll see. I've already spoken to a couple of councillors who are flabbergasted. Buses Bill can't come soon enough!

Councillors are professional flabbergasters to be fair 

I honestly don't think the changes are all that out there. It's obvious the network has been left because it's the same revenue generating shell network that Busways and the PTE set up. Fast forward 20 odd years and it needs reviewing. More hub and spoke than direct link (GNE did this years ago and continue to do it. At least stagecoahchave far cheaper day tickets!)

The 62/63 chanages are a big big change but there's going to be alternatives, it's not like they are abandoning Fenham Hall Drive.

Buses bill isn't going to do anything differently aside massively increase pressure on taxpayers to continue funding unsustainable routes.

The reason the 63 is a strange one is because they are giving Fenham no direct link to the city centre. There are several schools and a uni hall of residence. The 63 is always packed at peak times and many do use it as a through service. It isn't saving any buses by rerouting so it's strange. Not only are they leaving parts of Fenham with no (fast) route to the centre, they are leaving Cowgate with no link to the station! There's no logic to it, really. These are the first major changes proposed since 2003. Incidentally, there's a difference between interregional hub and spoke of GNE and trying that concept within a relatively small city. We shall see what happens.

Oh, as a taxpayer and a bus user, I am more than happy to 'subsidise' routes that my council has full control over but that is a debate for the other thread ;-)

(09 Feb 2017, 11:36 pm)Ambassador wrote The changes aren't a huge surprise. Newcastle has a fairly untouched and unchanged stale network in Stagecoach terms.

It's never really had a full change since the Busways takeover.  A few cosmetic snips here and there.

The likes of the 22 and X63 being left alone probably says more for commercial partnership with Cobalt and Quorum more than anything.

The huge issue is the traffic around Newcastle that barring huge investment in infrastructure you aren't going to solve, Newcastle is a growing big  city and it's beginning to show as commuters move out towards subabrbs to live and work in but still commute through the city centre. Sunderland just doesn't compare

It doesn't, Newcastle is the bigger city, so needs more services etc, Sunderland doesn't need 15+ services, where Newcastle does.

(10 Feb 2017, 12:14 am)markydh wrote The reason the 63 is a strange one is because they are giving Fenham no direct link to the city centre. There are several schools and a uni hall of residence. The 63 is always packed at peak times and many do use it as a through service. It isn't saving any buses by rerouting so it's strange. Not only are they leaving parts of Fenham with no (fast) route to the centre, they are leaving Cowgate with no link to the station! There's no logic to it, really. These are the first major changes proposed since 2003. Incidentally, there's a difference between interregional hub and spoke of GNE and trying that concept within a relatively small city. We shall see what happens.

Oh, as a taxpayer and a bus user, I am more than happy to 'subsidise' routes that my council has full control over but that is a debate for the other thread ;-)

Isnt the 71/72/87 going to be re-routed through Fenham the same way the 63 currently goes on a combined 15 minute frequency?

And then run the loop via Westgate Road, first, thereby increasing journey times to the city centre by at least 10 minutes. That's the issue. I don't see what is gained by swapping these services with the 63. I use the 62/63 services daily and it's the 62 that always runs late in the west of the city so the reasoning in 'speeding up' the 63 doesn't make sense on those grounds. I've fed this back, though.